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Topic: Did Jesus Oppose Capitalism?
Bestinshow's photo
Sat 01/09/10 10:20 AM
Would Jesus Christ - the founder of the largest religion in the world, unequivocally recognized as a messenger of peace and love - support capitalism?

Michael Moore, director of Capitalism: A Love Story, says you can’t be a religious Christian and a capitalist. (Chris Pizzello / AP)ndreIt's one of the questions filmmaker Michael Moore, the well-known creator of documentaries such as Bowling for Columbine and Sicko, asks in his latest film, Capitalism: A Love Story.

In Capitalism, the filmmaker wonders whether Christ would support a system that, as the filmmaker stated, "has allowed the richest one per cent to have more financial wealth than the 95 per cent under them combined."

Moore, a Roman Catholic, argues that Jesus' commandments to care for others and feed the poor and hungry go against the love of money and greed that make up capitalism. He argues that one cannot be a religious Christian and a capitalist.

Clement Mehlman, a Lutheran chaplain at Dalhousie University, agrees.

"Jesus was a Jewish peasant, coming from an underprivileged tradition Himself, so He would have been what we would call a communist or a socialist," he says. "And there are elements of communism in descriptions of early Christian communities. They pooled their resources. There was not independent wealth, there was communal wealth."

The idea that Christ preached a socialist message would probably scare some conservative believers, but Mehlman has no problem with that.

"Jesus says to follow Him, you have to give everything you own to the poor," he says with a wry smile. "How many Christians do you see doing that? It's a text that should be thrown at the wealthy fat cats."

While Mehlman does not see capitalism as being compatible with the Christian faith, Rev. Gary Thorne, an Anglican minister and chaplain with Dalhousie and the Canadian Forces Reserves, thinks Christians should take a second look at the system.

"There's nothing wrong with the free market system in itself," he says. "It's how it's used. I don't think there's anything inherently evil in the free market system, in supply and demand and the exchanging of goods."

He argues that the problem is not capitalism, but what people bring to it - in particular, greed and desire for wealth.

The intent of the heart is crucial in any system, Thorne says. For him, Jesus' message is not about the market system, but about the people who make up the market.

"If the poor are those who are opposed, marginalized, persecuted and forgotten, then clearly Jesus would have us look at these people, really look them in the eye, and be with them, not just write them a cheque."

He also draws upon church history, and the beliefs of the church's most important figures, in making his argument.

"Martin Luther, John Calvin, they were really clear. They were entirely in favour of a free market system."

He says leaders like Luther viewed it as motivation to work hard, both to earn an income and to please God.

But the most important part about acquiring wealth is the willingness to share it, Thorne says. And part of that sharing comes through paying taxes.

"Any Christian who says that we pay too much in taxes is just bonkers," he says. "They should want to give more of their money to taxes, so the government can use the money to take care of the poor."

Thorne believes the core of capitalism is working hard to acquire wealth, but that one should be willing to use the wealth to help others.

"If you acquire a great deal of wealth, you should be happy to be taxed at 75 per cent because you can live comfortably with the 25 per cent you keep."

While Mehlman thinks Jesus would question capitalism, and believes that the government cannot do the work of the church, Thorne sees no problem with a free market, but is in favour of the government raising taxes to fulfill the command to feed the poor.

Is there middle ground between the two?

Russell Daye, a minister at St. Andrew's United Church in Halifax, thinks so.

"I don't think Jesus was flat out opposed to capitalism," he says. "He lived in what can best be described as a free market, and He contributed to it. Economies back then worked with small pools of capital, which is literally what capitalism is. But what capitalism has become now is a system filled with greed that has proven it can't maintain itself."

Daye says that capitalism fails when greed takes precedence over compassion.

"Look at globalization. What we've seen with rampant, unchecked globalization is First World countries hurting the Second and Third Worlds, through child labour, destroying the environment and taking away land."

Daye says Jesus would never approve of that.

Then how should Christians respond to a system that is rampant with greed and lust for money?

Rev. Brad Close, a Christian Reformed minister, says they should try to avoid supporting it as much as possible.

"If someone wants to follow Christ, they have to realize where the money they spend is going," he says.

He encourages Christians to boycott large corporations that exploit workers or the environment, and suggests buying fairly traded products instead.

Those who claim to want to follow the teachings of Christ, but wilfully profit from an unjust system, need to realize the harm they are causing to community, he says.

"You need to come to a point where you realize what you're doing is wrong. In that case, change it from the inside, or get out. Those are the only two choices."

Ultimately, despite some disagreement among theologians, Moore's argument that Jesus opposed capitalism - at least, the money worshipping form of capitalism that has grown in his country - has found much support within the Christian community.

Even Pope Benedict XVI, in his most recent encyclical, condemned the greed-driven, free market systems that helped to cause the economic collapse. He also said people's attitudes towards money must change.

It appears that the ultra-progressive Moore may have finally found an opinion with which Christians agree.

© 2010 The Halifax Herald Limited
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/01/09-3

optrigon's photo
Sat 01/09/10 03:43 PM
Edited by optrigon on Sat 01/09/10 03:46 PM

Would Jesus Christ - the founder of the largest religion in the world, unequivocally recognized as a messenger of peace and love - support capitalism?

Michael Moore, director of Capitalism: A Love Story, says you can’t be a religious Christian and a capitalist. (Chris Pizzello / AP)ndreIt's one of the questions filmmaker Michael Moore, the well-known creator of documentaries such as Bowling for Columbine and Sicko, asks in his latest film, Capitalism: A Love Story.

In Capitalism, the filmmaker wonders whether Christ would support a system that, as the filmmaker stated, "has allowed the richest one per cent to have more financial wealth than the 95 per cent under them combined."

Moore, a Roman Catholic, argues that Jesus' commandments to care for others and feed the poor and hungry go against the love of money and greed that make up capitalism. He argues that one cannot be a religious Christian and a capitalist.

Clement Mehlman, a Lutheran chaplain at Dalhousie University, agrees.

"Jesus was a Jewish peasant, coming from an underprivileged tradition Himself, so He would have been what we would call a communist or a socialist," he says. "And there are elements of communism in descriptions of early Christian communities. They pooled their resources. There was not independent wealth, there was communal wealth."

The idea that Christ preached a socialist message would probably scare some conservative believers, but Mehlman has no problem with that.

"Jesus says to follow Him, you have to give everything you own to the poor," he says with a wry smile. "How many Christians do you see doing that? It's a text that should be thrown at the wealthy fat cats."

While Mehlman does not see capitalism as being compatible with the Christian faith, Rev. Gary Thorne, an Anglican minister and chaplain with Dalhousie and the Canadian Forces Reserves, thinks Christians should take a second look at the system.

"There's nothing wrong with the free market system in itself," he says. "It's how it's used. I don't think there's anything inherently evil in the free market system, in supply and demand and the exchanging of goods."

He argues that the problem is not capitalism, but what people bring to it - in particular, greed and desire for wealth.

The intent of the heart is crucial in any system, Thorne says. For him, Jesus' message is not about the market system, but about the people who make up the market.

"If the poor are those who are opposed, marginalized, persecuted and forgotten, then clearly Jesus would have us look at these people, really look them in the eye, and be with them, not just write them a cheque."

He also draws upon church history, and the beliefs of the church's most important figures, in making his argument.

"Martin Luther, John Calvin, they were really clear. They were entirely in favour of a free market system."

He says leaders like Luther viewed it as motivation to work hard, both to earn an income and to please God.

But the most important part about acquiring wealth is the willingness to share it, Thorne says. And part of that sharing comes through paying taxes.

"Any Christian who says that we pay too much in taxes is just bonkers," he says. "They should want to give more of their money to taxes, so the government can use the money to take care of the poor."

Thorne believes the core of capitalism is working hard to acquire wealth, but that one should be willing to use the wealth to help others.

"If you acquire a great deal of wealth, you should be happy to be taxed at 75 per cent because you can live comfortably with the 25 per cent you keep."

While Mehlman thinks Jesus would question capitalism, and believes that the government cannot do the work of the church, Thorne sees no problem with a free market, but is in favour of the government raising taxes to fulfill the command to feed the poor.

Is there middle ground between the two?

Russell Daye, a minister at St. Andrew's United Church in Halifax, thinks so.

"I don't think Jesus was flat out opposed to capitalism," he says. "He lived in what can best be described as a free market, and He contributed to it. Economies back then worked with small pools of capital, which is literally what capitalism is. But what capitalism has become now is a system filled with greed that has proven it can't maintain itself."

Daye says that capitalism fails when greed takes precedence over compassion.

"Look at globalization. What we've seen with rampant, unchecked globalization is First World countries hurting the Second and Third Worlds, through child labour, destroying the environment and taking away land."

Daye says Jesus would never approve of that.

Then how should Christians respond to a system that is rampant with greed and lust for money?

Rev. Brad Close, a Christian Reformed minister, says they should try to avoid supporting it as much as possible.

"If someone wants to follow Christ, they have to realize where the money they spend is going," he says.

He encourages Christians to boycott large corporations that exploit workers or the environment, and suggests buying fairly traded products instead.

Those who claim to want to follow the teachings of Christ, but wilfully profit from an unjust system, need to realize the harm they are causing to community, he says.

"You need to come to a point where you realize what you're doing is wrong. In that case, change it from the inside, or get out. Those are the only two choices."

Ultimately, despite some disagreement among theologians, Moore's argument that Jesus opposed capitalism - at least, the money worshipping form of capitalism that has grown in his country - has found much support within the Christian community.

Even Pope Benedict XVI, in his most recent encyclical, condemned the greed-driven, free market systems that helped to cause the economic collapse. He also said people's attitudes towards money must change.

It appears that the ultra-progressive Moore may have finally found an opinion with which Christians agree.

© 2010 The Halifax Herald Limited
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/01/09-3










First of all HIS NAME WAS NOT Jesus, His Name was Jahusha, and he was GOD incarnent...

He is like no other, and yes, it is OK to make an Honest Profit...

But it is NOT OK to conduct Buisness in The House of GOD, and it is not OK to charge intrest of a loan...

Jahusha was never poor, because HE has always been The GOD That Created ALL, both The heavens and The Earth...

There was a time when he was playing in the mud along a stream as a boy and he had made a little dam and was making little clay birds, and along came a bully and destroyed The little dam, but before the bully could destroy the clay birds, Jahusha, passed his hand over them and they all flew away...

Jah, has never been poor...


He has a Great Conpassion on us all...

heavenlyboy34's photo
Sat 01/09/10 03:52 PM
Moore's film incorrectly labels corporatism as "capitalism". This fundamental misunderstanding permeates and invalidates his entire thesis. This country hasn't had true capitalism since 1913 thanks to Woodrow Wilson, Congress, and the FED.

Yes, Yeshua would have endorsed laissez-faire capitalism. Economist and Christian Dr. Gary North explains this fully in his economic analysis of the bible.

markumX's photo
Sat 01/09/10 11:11 PM
1. Jesus was NOT God incarnate.
2. Christ was poor, which was his personal preference as was all of the prophets of God. He was never rich.
3. Forget what Jesus or Jashua whatever you want to call him preached, every major religion contradicts the basics of Capitalism so the answer to this thread is Yes.

CatsLoveMe's photo
Sat 01/09/10 11:24 PM

1. Jesus was NOT God incarnate.
2. Christ was poor, which was his personal preference as was all of the prophets of God. He was never rich.
3. Forget what Jesus or Jashua whatever you want to call him preached, every major religion contradicts the basics of Capitalism so the answer to this thread is Yes.


I take it you're Muslim, yes? Jesus was referred to as a prophet, Ise if I'm not mistaken. Throughout time in the history of man, we have had several revelations of who God is and what God wants. It is up to us, to understand, and to put faith in what God wants from each and every one of us.

optrigon's photo
Sun 01/10/10 12:25 AM
Edited by optrigon on Sun 01/10/10 12:38 AM

1. Jesus was NOT God incarnate. In this you are WRONG!!! The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are all on one...

2. Christ was poor, which was his personal preference as was all of the prophets of God. He was never rich. WRONG

How would you call True Wealth, would it be measured in Credit,Gold Bars, or the ability to set The World FREE, restore Health, even raise The Dead ???

3. Forget what Jesus or Jashua whatever you want to call him , In that you are WRONG...

The one The World knows as jesus, is Sanonda, the right hand servent of Satan...


preached, every major religion contradicts the basics of Capitalism so the answer to this thread is Yes. WRONG...

In your YOUTH, you simply have not lived long enough to have done the research, or know the real facts of these matters...





Now, if you have nothing and no home and you can't eat, it would be wise to ask The Lord for wisdome as to what you should do ???

Then you might fine some Pop Bottles and turn them in and get some money to eat, while your eating, someone might offer you a job, the job might put you into a truck, that you could use to make more money,now that you have money you invest it wisely, in time you have a home and a family...

All of these things happen to The people of The World as well, but they did not ask The Lord, the poor man did...

Yahushua dose not HATE money or Rich people, HE Hates people who worship other Gods , and allot of rich people have made money their GOD...

Many of us know, that money is a tool of The Devil, so we use it but we do not stack it up and it is not our god...

markumX's photo
Sun 01/10/10 04:25 PM
i feel sorry for you. If what i said is "wrong" , back it up.
God's not a three in one like my shampoo.
He's never set foot on this earth in human form and he never will even the Torah states this in black and white...where you people get this fantasy that the prophet Jesus was God i'll never understand.

JustAGuy2112's photo
Sun 01/10/10 05:23 PM
Oh look.

It's yet another case of ' my religion is better than yours '.

Well..here's an odd question.

Who says YOU are right??

Who says ANY of the religions are the only ones that know the correct word and way??

Because Allah says so??

Because God says so???

Baptists think Catholics are going to Hell. Catholics think Lutherans are going to Hell.

Islam claims to be the one " true " religion and that everyone in the world must be converted.

The Bible is the " Word of God. Directly from God "??

Who says?? The folks that wrote the stuff??

Ever think they may have been chock full of hallucinogens when they were writing??

yellowrose10's photo
Sun 01/10/10 05:24 PM

JustAGuy2112's photo
Sun 01/10/10 05:34 PM




You've been munching on quite a bit of popcorn lately...lmao

yellowrose10's photo
Sun 01/10/10 05:35 PM
beats biting my tongue off laugh

JustAGuy2112's photo
Sun 01/10/10 05:38 PM
LMAO!!!

Very true.

optrigon's photo
Sun 01/10/10 06:00 PM

i feel sorry for you. If what i said is "wrong" , back it up.
God's not a three in one like my shampoo.
He's never set foot on this earth in human form and he never will even the Torah states this in black and white...where you people get this fantasy that the prophet Jesus was God i'll never understand.










Hay Mack,


What ever CIA Drugs your using, keep them to yourself, and maybe if you treat that C4 just right it can get you all the way to Kingdome Come...


GOOD LUCK, son... whoa

cashu's photo
Sun 01/10/10 07:31 PM
Edited by cashu on Sun 01/10/10 07:33 PM

Oh look.

It's yet another case of ' my religion is better than yours '.

Well..here's an odd question.

Who says YOU are right??

Who says ANY of the religions are the only ones that know the correct word and way??

Because Allah says so??

Because God says so???

Baptists think Catholics are going to Hell. Catholics think Lutherans are going to Hell.

Islam claims to be the one " true " religion and that everyone in the world must be converted.

The Bible is the " Word of God. Directly from God "??

Who says?? The folks that wrote the stuff??

Ever think they may have been chock full of hallucinogens when they were writing??
DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Their all right but their not all right .

cashu's photo
Sun 01/10/10 07:40 PM

1. Jesus was NOT God incarnate.
2. Christ was poor, which was his personal preference as was all of the prophets of God. He was never rich.
3. Forget what Jesus or Jashua whatever you want to call him preached, every major religion contradicts the basics of Capitalism so the answer to this thread is Yes.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
jesus never in his whole life said he was a god . christ only objected to money grubbers in the temple doing business . the king of greese is the person who declared him a god , he did it to keep the people in place because they were starting to rebel over his death .
THINK ABOUT IT .

msharmony's photo
Sun 01/10/10 07:41 PM
I think the question was would Jesus oppose capitalism,, dont know how it turned into another is there a Jesus conversation,,,


I think the most accurate sentence in the op is '

He argues that the problem is not capitalism, but what people bring to it - in particular, greed and desire for wealth. '


I dont think Jesus would oppose capitalism per se , as much as the greed and selfishness and oppression that some bring to it

markumX's photo
Sun 01/10/10 09:35 PM


i feel sorry for you. If what i said is "wrong" , back it up.
God's not a three in one like my shampoo.
He's never set foot on this earth in human form and he never will even the Torah states this in black and white...where you people get this fantasy that the prophet Jesus was God i'll never understand.










Hay Mack,


What ever CIA Drugs your using, keep them to yourself, and maybe if you treat that C4 just right it can get you all the way to Kingdome Come...


GOOD LUCK, son... whoa



Moderator, you going to let this fly yet all of my posts are quickly edited?????

I told you to back up your statements not make stupid stereotypical remarks.
As far as Islam goes, nowhere does it say to convert everyone or kill them. If anyone did actual research on this instead of listening to the propaganda that Robert Spencer spews out they would know this.

markumX's photo
Sun 01/10/10 09:41 PM

Oh look.

It's yet another case of ' my religion is better than yours '.

Well..here's an odd question.

Who says YOU are right??

Who says ANY of the religions are the only ones that know the correct word and way??

Because Allah says so??

Because God says so???

Baptists think Catholics are going to Hell. Catholics think Lutherans are going to Hell.

Islam claims to be the one " true " religion and that everyone in the world must be converted.

The Bible is the " Word of God. Directly from God "??

Who says?? The folks that wrote the stuff??

Ever think they may have been chock full of hallucinogens when they were writing??



This has nothing to do with Islam, Christians in the ME don't even believe that Jesus was God.

mygenerationbaby's photo
Mon 01/11/10 02:02 AM
Cool Post BestInShow. I like this. And I like your screen name too. It was a very funny movie, have you seen it? Comical characters treating their dogs like humans. What a gas! This thread got off track so quickly, wow! People who love to turn a perfectly good argument into an all out brawl, never cease to amaze me.
So, let's see. No, I doubt if Jesus would have taken sides one way or another. He was cool like that. Everythng he did was based on tenents that we are unable to follow, as normal humans. But once in a while you get an incredible man or woman, who will do nothing but good deeds in this world. Thanks for the cool post BIS!

mygenerationbaby's photo
Mon 01/11/10 02:07 AM



i feel sorry for you. If what i said is "wrong" , back it up.
God's not a three in one like my shampoo.
He's never set foot on this earth in human form and he never will even the Torah states this in black and white...where you people get this fantasy that the prophet Jesus was God i'll never understand.










Hay Mack,


What ever CIA Drugs your using, keep them to yourself, and maybe if you treat that C4 just right it can get you all the way to Kingdome Come...


GOOD LUCK, son... whoa



Moderator, you going to let this fly yet all of my posts are quickly edited?????

I told you to back up your statements not make stupid stereotypical remarks.
As far as Islam goes, nowhere does it say to convert everyone or kill them. If anyone did actual research on this instead of listening to the propaganda that Robert Spencer spews out they would know this.

Yup, I know what you mean about the moderator thing. This is the same one who deleted my whole paragraph for saying, "ya dip" Lots worse stuff goes on around here. At least they could just delete whatever offensive word or words was inbedded in your content.

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