I learn much from these forums, not just information, but knowledge.
Not just about topics but about people and about myself. There is not a
person here, who has not shown me something of value.

I would like to share some of this knowledge as I have learned it solely
as it pertains to me. Yes subjective, but understanding a person as a
whole helps to stop possible communication errors.

I would also ask everyone here to share, again subjectively, your own
buttons, as we attempt to continue a more peaceful communion.

Communication is, at best an abstract concept, written or spoken, which
is perceived, then translated through all of the receivers own
subjectivity.

So, if we learn what everyones buttons are & why, it will serve two
purposes.

The first is that each of us, will have to search out these ideas, form
them and share them so they are no longer subjective, but known values.

The second may well serve to diffuse many of our own buttons. When we
know someone extremely well, we often 'hit the mark' not with malice,
but with the intention of a friendly or gentle chiding, or with a smile
that says, I know you, just pushing to let you know I'm here.

I will begin with a reply.

As contradictory as it sounds, I just can't tolerate intolerance.
Somebody tells me or somebody else we are wrong only because we don't do
or believe things as others do lights up a red warning light. It's the
times then when I try to stay away in order not to lose my temper.

My buttons:

Button one - Self Righteous Authority:

This one pertains to "anyone" who is in a position of authority, from
teachers, to police officers, to clergy, to politicians, as well as to
those who have a great wealth of knowledge on any particular topic.
When any of these people abuse their authority by exacting it's
privilege in a self righteous manner, it will push this button.

If I am in a position of personal contact, I try to understand the
person better, for in friendship there is always a possibility for both
to improve. This is a fault I try to work on. While it is not always
possible, using politicians as case in point, I try to gather others of
like mind to address and change the situation through the channels that
the freedoms of this country provide.

Button 2 - Substantiation of bigotry within the whole:

I understand and allow every individual their own personal bias, whether
it comes from some terrible experience, or is in the realm of the
spiritual convictions that uphold their believe system. This does not
push my button.

There is a thin line between a personal bias and the personal freedoms
of a society. When a personal bias, crosses over, whether it is
intentional or not, THIS pushes my button.

Why? Because this is not only a personal bias, but one that hits home by
attacking the self-righteous button as well. It may not always be the
intention of one to 'dictate' such bias as a value to the whole of
society, however, when others are allowed to agree with the bias on the
contingent that it should be an enforced value, is to accept the title
of self-righteous.

Button three - Continual repetition with no forward motion:

I have been witness to this spinning of wheels, have even taken part in
it from time to time. These are situations that usually involve ones
opinion and one attempting to change that opinion.
The opinion is give, an attempt to show an error in the logic is given,
the opinion is restated, another attempt in other words clarifies the
exception taken, the opinion is stated again --

I am not talking about discussion that continues to move forward with
proofs and truths, but those in which neither side will 'conclude' with
the understanding that there will be no agreement.

In conclusion, having the buttons are a fault, but are more easily
recognized when they are known by others to be your fault. In this way,
friends can chide you, move you, gently, from the realm of uncontrolled
emotion back to understanding.

I offer respect to all to the best of my ability, but my ability to know
you all, is dependent on your communication. While I attempt to present
in CAPS those words that have value or meaning, I may fail from time to
time. When using general terms or words that have a common definition,
it is not my intention to use them for another purpose. If doing so
normally pushes your button, than knowing it is not my intention should
alleviate the tendency to have an emotional outburst. I would also look
kindly on any gentle nudge that indicates to me, that I am working under
the stress of my own faults.

Hi Invisible. You are so right on the money, it may seem like an
oxymoron but your statement, I'm sure, will reflect many others here.

For me, I have viewed the words tolerance and acceptance with a slightly
different twist. Tolerance, to me, is to accept what you can not
change, but still conclude the error of another. This often continues to
lead to a breakdown in communication as most in these situations have
some kind of pre-conceived judgement in place. I speak for myself, for
this is the truth of me.

Acceptance, however, is what I strive for, because it does not shape
with bias, the determination of future communication. As one may
require tolerance in a single area, they may deserve my respect in
another and I don't want that dismissed by an preconception.

I will keep your button in mind, it's an easy for me, because I feel it
too.

Impressed...

POWERFUl point Red

"When using general terms or words that have a common definition, it is
not my intention to use them for another purpose. If doing so normally
pushes your button, than knowing it is not my intention should alleviate
the tendency to have an emotional outburst. "

That's good to know.

"I am not talking about discussion that continues to move forward with
proofs and truths, but those in which neither side will 'conclude' with
the understanding that there will be no agreement."


I've tried to put closure to discussions that tend to morph into a
debate from emotional outburst but it doesn't work sometimes. Some
people like to go on and on ..OR "continue repetition with no forward
motion"

To me self righteousness can come from one who is arrogant and uses
these forums to broadcast it or to make other users feel that because
they believe differently they are less intelligent or "irrational."

I also feel that it is OBVIOUS when others or hurt and at that point
other users can take a hint to either stop posting or applogize. So the
nudge or to indicate boundaries is not always needed when clearly by
the user's response they are hurt.
I don't curse, so when upset I type things to convey the message "you've
crossed the line."

However, I will try to do these things. I will try the "gentle nudge."

Interesting thread Red.

I would like to see some in-depth discussions of philosophies and
religious ideas that are not Judaic-Christian in nature without having
the Judaic-Christians jumping in screaming that salvation through Jesus
is the ONLY way.

Pure and simple. As soon as a picture of god is mentioned that refers
to god as being something outside the scope of Judaic-Christianity
people start screaming ‘foul’ and become personally insulted. They
claim ‘personal injury’ etc, etc, etc.

How can we avoid this?

Is it possible to have a philosophical discussion about spiritual ideas
without the Judaic-Christians radicals being offended by that? I think
not.

I wish they had two separate religious forums. One forum entitled
“Judaic-Christianity”, and another entitled “Other Religions or
Spirituality’. Then maybe there could be some peace. I would post
solely to the forum entitled “Other Religions or Spirituality” and I
wouldn’t even bother reading the “Judaic-Christianity” forum at all
becasue I have no interest in that particular religion myself.

I seriously believe that this would be better for everyone, because I
see a lot of people who would like to share non-Christian spiritualities
but when they voice their views on this in this forum it almost always
ends up in a confrontation with Christian zealots.

I seriously don’t see how their can ever be any peace as long as all
religions are combined into one forum. In fact, this seems to be a
phenomenon in the real world as well. Many songs have been written
about a world in which men live in peace ‘without religion’, and I think
what they really mean is that as long as people hold differnet religious
views there will always be conflict.

I also believe that this is specifically true of the Judaic-Christian
religions. And the reason I say this is because they hold that their
way is the ONLY WAY. And therein lies the root of the problem.

We never see the myriad of other religious people arguing among
themselves because none of them claim to be the ONLY WAY, or to be about
the only “true god”.

Let’s face it, the Judaic-Christian religions start out with the
commandment “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. And later with
statement like, “No one gets to the father but through me”, etc, etc,
etc.

It is a fundamental belief of Christianity that it is the ONLY WAY, and
this is the source of all the hostility.

Christianity is an intolerant religion by it’s very nature.

So I would seriously like to see two completely separate forums. I
believe that’s the only real answer to these kind of conflicts.

Just my thoughts.

On this particular point I have to respectfully disagree with you Abra.
Judeo/Christian's are not the only ones that believe theirs is the only
way.

Islamic fundementalists also believe that theirs is the ONLY way.

Kinda funny when you see that they are both from the same source. That
both have Abrahamic roots that both messengers for those truths have
lineage that traces to the root of Jesse.

But again both also had their books changed by men at 325 years and 400
years.

AB wrote:
"Islamic fundamentalists also believe that theirs is the ONLY way."

Ok, I was kind of thinking that Islam would fall into the broader
category of 'Judaic-Christian' religious, but I guess that umbrella
isn't broad enough.

But a agree with you that Islam would be included in that. It’s
basically the same religion at it’s core with the exception of accepting
Jesus as God. But then neither does Judaism.

In fact, Judaism might not actually quality. I’m not sure about that.
I heard a Jewish Rabbi being interviewed on NPR the other day and he
claimed that it’s not important to the Jewish religion to convert other
people to Judaism. He claimed that Judaism is accepting of other
religions as being viable pathways to god. Although, I don’t know if
this is a basis of Judaism itself or if this is just one Rabbi’s
opinion.

There are many individual Christians who seem to be accepting of other
religions as being valid for other people. But, of course, this is also
the personal view of individuals.

All Christians are not belligerent of course. It’s only the fanatical
radicals that demonstrate such intolerance and try to make out like they
have been personally insulted and/or injured by the beliefs and views of
others. A few fanatical radicals can spoil it for everyone.

"Judaism might not actually quality"

I meant, 'qualify' (as an intolerant religion)

Abra posted

"I would like to see some in-depth discussions of philosophies and
religious ideas that are not Judaic-Christian in nature without having
the Judaic-Christians jumping in screaming that salvation through Jesus
is the ONLY way."

There have been a few discussion that all users regardless of what faith
or belief. Maybe they weren't philosophical buy they existed. This is
the RELIGION section

I find it interesting you may want to exclude some users because of
their faith. If you want a philosophical discussion, then post it but
keep in mind some users won't agree with you regardless of their faith.
I encourage you to post it.

*sorry typos

I've seen threads that basically allow all users regardless of religion,
or beliefs can reply and voice their views.

So I guess it would be a good idea to post philosophy threads for those
who are interested but not in a way to exclude anyone. It's all about
how it's done.

Justification and rationalization are two of my buttons. They have in
the past kept me from acceptance of truth. It especially effected me
with my ex. It caused me to go into a fit of rage. When confronted with
the truth it wreaked utter horror on my fragile male ego. This in turn
caused me to sull and lick my wounds. I really wasn't sure why or how
the ice pick got there but it sure burned. I would just clam up and quit
communicating.

I don't mind a person posting their heart felt belief that accepting
Jesus is the only way if that is what they believe. They have a right
to post as do I.

I do have a problem when that belief is pointed directly at me and by
calling me names (i.e. 'lier') or by attempting to invalidate my beleifs
by informin me that I am wrong and going to go to hell. Or by posting
'nobody listen to this person they are a false prophet'. This would be
unaceptable language if I used it on them. I would ask them not to use
it on me. I also have a problem when this type of comment is directed
at someone else.

Reckon that must be one of my buttons.

About the Bible:

The American Bible Society has distributed eight hundred sixty MILLION
Bibles since 1816.

At least one book of the Bible is now in one thousand two hundred fifty
languages, like no other book.

The Bible in its completeness is now in two hundred thirty seven
languages, more than there are nations on earth.

There are over three thousand translators currently working in one
hundred fifty countries.

Only half of one percent of ALL BOOKS published survive seven years.
Eighty percent of ALL BOOKS published are forgotten in one year! Only
one out of two hundred survive seven years. Solomon said, "Of making of
books there is no end." Au contraire, the Bible is two thousand years
old and is today's best seller in America.

Where would you go to find a copy of the Zen Vedas or the Egyptian Book
of the Dead? Dozens of religions have flourished and disappeared off the
face of the earth without even leaving a trace. Other religious writings
may be viewed behind glass cases in the rare book section of dusty
museums. But the smallest child can walk into almost any store in
America and pick up a copy of the Word of God. Bible circulation has
increased two hundred percent since 1960 according to the ABS.

Some skeptics say, "How can you trust the Bible? That book has been
around for two thousand years and has been rewritten so many times you
don't know if you're reading the same thing today." THAT STATEMENT
SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE!!!

Today there are almost five thousand ANCIENT GREEK manuscripts of the
New Testament! Consider this, Fifteen hundred years after Herodotus
wrote his history there was only one copy in the entire world. Twelve
hundred years after Plato wrote his classic, there was only one
manuscript of it left. Today there exists but a few manuscripts of
Sophocles, Euripedes, Virgil, and Cicero.

We have not one but five thousand ancient Greek manuscripts of the New
Testament. How much safer can you get?

"What about the Old Testament?" someone asks. The following rules for
scribes are written in the Talmud for copying the Hebrew text:

1. The parchment must be made of the skin of a clean animal, by a Jew
only.

2. Each column must have no less than forty eight nor more than sixty
lines.

3. The ink must be black, made by a special recipe.

4. No word nor letter could be written from memory, the scribe must have
an authentic copy before him. He had to read and pronounce aloud each
word before writing it.

5. Each time he reverently wiped his pen (before writing) and washed his
whole body EVERY TIME he wrote the sacred name Jehovah.

6. One mistake on a sheet condemned it. If three mistakes were found,
the whole manuscript was condemned.

7. Every word and letter was counted. If a letter was omitted or added
or if two letters touched each other, the whole manuscript was
condemned.

The scribe was told that even if a king walked in, he was to ignore him
till he finished the page, lest he make a mistake. That is a pretty fool
proof plan.

That is how we got the Bible today.

Kat

Another button I have is the right button. How could she be right if I
was right? It caused confusion within me. This intensified the rage.
This challenge to my ego was just too much to handle. This other god was
challenging my omnipotence. How dare her. Didn't she know that she
shouldn't have any other god before me? Oh my god but she did and she
brought her into our home. She had violated the sanctity of our home by
bringing her mother into it. There were just too many gods. I just
couldn't deal with it. I was outnumbered. I was dethroned. It was
horrible. I tried my best to hide. There was no hiding place from these
other gods because they would seek me out. In desperation I got a
divorce from these other gods.

wow rainbowtout powerful story

Thanks, boredchick. With my last wife we shared the godhood. We both had
our fill of all the fighting and fussing. We both just wanted peace. It
was beautiful and felt really comforting.

Bored wrote:
“I find it interesting you may want to exclude some users because of
their faith.”

I don’t want to exclude anyone from anything. Having multiple forums
with multiple headings would not exclude anyone. But hopefully it
would serve to give people more choices.

Like I had mentioned, I would exclude myself from the Christian forum
by CHOICE. I seriously have no desire to argue with Christians. I
really don’t. It’s just that my views are totally outside the scope of
Christianity so when I post my views Christians get upset by them. It’s
not my fault they get upset.

So rather than viewing myself as being ‘excluded’ from Christianity, I
prefer to think of it as having a ‘choice’ to avoid the Christian
fanatics. To me, this would represent a freedom, not a restriction.

Abra I respect that but look at the term you used "fanatics"

If you come in a Christian forum be mindful on what you say. Your past
post might have been offensive to some. No one wants to debate or argue.
That's EXACTLY what destroys this section of JSH more than any other.

Well I encourage you to post that forum up.

I'm happy it worked out Rainbowtout.

Man you've been through alot.