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Topic: Christmas vs Holiday
Jill298's photo
Sat 12/12/09 11:02 PM
flowerforyou flowerforyou

yellowrose10's photo
Sat 12/12/09 11:05 PM
laugh sorry Jill....my brain isn't working right now laugh

I'm a Christian and so is my son (his choice) but I don't feel it belongs in public schools just like other religious beliefs do. now if it is on their own (like you said pray) then that is one thing but not a school sanctioned event or class

Jill298's photo
Sat 12/12/09 11:20 PM

laugh sorry Jill....my brain isn't working right now laugh

I'm a Christian and so is my son (his choice) but I don't feel it belongs in public schools just like other religious beliefs do. now if it is on their own (like you said pray) then that is one thing but not a school sanctioned event or class
my thoughts exactly.

yellowrose10's photo
Sat 12/12/09 11:26 PM
the way I look at it is this....public schools are funded from taxes. tax payers aren't all one belief...so therefore only one belief should not be taking precedent over others.

and if I wanted my son to learn a certain religious belief...I would home school him or send him to private school.

I want my son to learn about all beliefs. He chose the belief he felt was right for him, but he can better understand others in learning about them. but it's not for the public school to do because it is next to impossible to teach ALL beliefs.

Jill298's photo
Thu 12/24/09 10:52 PM
SAN FRANCISCO (Dec. 22) -- Attention, all ye faithful: Merry Hyatt has a plan to bring Christmas carols into the lives of school children.

The substitute teacher in Redding, Calif., says she is tired of working in schools where students aren't allowed to sing Christmas songs that are religious in nature. So she's sponsoring a ballot initiative that would require all public schools in California to give children the opportunity to sing or listen to Christmas carols.

"For years and years, maybe one person has been able to ruin it for an entire school," Hyatt said. "It's not right. I think it's the majority's turn."

There is no law in California that prohibits caroling in public schools, said Michael Hersher, deputy general counsel for the California Department of Education. In fact, many school choirs perform religiously oriented music, including Christmas carols, during holiday concerts. But some schools find it simpler to maintain the separation of church and state by excluding all religious material.
Hyatt, 61, says she proposed the initiative because of her experience as a substitute teacher in Riverside County in Southern California, where she says she was told not to bring carols -- or any discussion of Jesus -- into the classroom.

"It's sad and it's wrong to have a Christmas party and not mention Jesus," said Hyatt, who recently moved 600 miles north to Redding. "It's his birthday."

Hyatt was a fourth-grade teacher for a year and a half and taught at a Christian school for a year. But mostly, she has worked as a substitute teacher. The spelling of her first name, she said, has nothing to do with her interest in Christmas carols.

Under her proposed measure, students who don't want to participate, or whose parents don't want them to participate, could be excused.

"They can have a holiday party in the other room," she said. "Or if they don't want a party, they can have social studies or some other learning experience."
Although California is one of the most diverse states in the nation, Hyatt believes the number of children opting out would be relatively small. In all of her years of teaching, she says, "I haven't run into a Jewish child."

Hyatt, who is making her first foray into politics, needs to collect 433,971 signatures by March 29 to qualify her measure for the statewide ballot. So far, she said, she has collected about 350.

Nevertheless, she is optimistic. Members of the Tea Party movement recently agreed to help collect signatures, she said, and she is lining up assistance from churches.

"People have been upset about it for years," she said. "There are a lot of Christian teachers who have to keep their mouths shut. It's hard. We just want to sing Christmas carols at the Christmas party."

If Hyatt gets her measure on the ballot and it is approved by voters, it would likely face legal challenges. But not everything with a religious element is banned from schools. Much would depend on the author's intent, legal experts say.

In California, schools may introduce a religious theme if the purpose is educational, such as illustrating a cultural or historical perspective.

"There is no direct law that says you can't use religious music for a secular purpose," Hersher said. "It's not just Christmas. All year round there are publicly sponsored choirs that are performing music like Bach requiems or Mozart concertos that were written for a religious purpose."

Pratheepan Gulasekaram, an assistant professor of law at Santa Clara University, said the legal question of Christmas carols in schools is not clear cut. Some symbols associated with religion have changed over time into secular images, he noted.

"Lots of people who are non-Christian have Christmas trees," he said. "There can be symbols that take on other meanings. The question might be, are carols like that?"

Hyatt said she got the idea for the initiative "from above" one day while she was sitting on her couch. At first, she rejected the notion. "But then I thought about the blessing I might get and I thought, 'Yeah, that would be worth it,'" she said.

Hyatt is so devoted that she said she attends three churches, Presbyterian, Evangelical and Catholic. She also mixes in a little Eastern philosophy.

"This is kind of far out there, but there is a possibility that we have had a previous life, and so maybe we are going to come back and do it again," she said. "How are you going to turn out if you don't know anything from the Bible?" (She added: "I was raised Presbyterian. They are kind of lackadaisical. I'm hoping in my next life that I could be Catholic.")

From Hyatt's perspective, the adoption of her initiative would merely allow teachers to respond to students' wishes.

"You can't tell children you can't have religion in school," she said. "December comes and they want Christmas. As a teacher, I am not going to stand there and put down Jesus to a classroom. I want it too."

Jill298's photo
Thu 12/24/09 10:53 PM
frustrated frustrated frustrated frustrated frustrated

Citizen_Joe's photo
Thu 12/24/09 11:28 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras


How better to conquer a pagan holiday other than to move the birth of jesus to winter and make Bing Crosby a 1 hit wonder? I got to celebrate my first Christmas when I was 17.

msharmony's photo
Fri 12/25/09 12:12 AM

SAN FRANCISCO (Dec. 22) -- Attention, all ye faithful: Merry Hyatt has a plan to bring Christmas carols into the lives of school children.

The substitute teacher in Redding, Calif., says she is tired of working in schools where students aren't allowed to sing Christmas songs that are religious in nature. So she's sponsoring a ballot initiative that would require all public schools in California to give children the opportunity to sing or listen to Christmas carols.

"For years and years, maybe one person has been able to ruin it for an entire school," Hyatt said. "It's not right. I think it's the majority's turn."

There is no law in California that prohibits caroling in public schools, said Michael Hersher, deputy general counsel for the California Department of Education. In fact, many school choirs perform religiously oriented music, including Christmas carols, during holiday concerts. But some schools find it simpler to maintain the separation of church and state by excluding all religious material.
Hyatt, 61, says she proposed the initiative because of her experience as a substitute teacher in Riverside County in Southern California, where she says she was told not to bring carols -- or any discussion of Jesus -- into the classroom.

"It's sad and it's wrong to have a Christmas party and not mention Jesus," said Hyatt, who recently moved 600 miles north to Redding. "It's his birthday."

Hyatt was a fourth-grade teacher for a year and a half and taught at a Christian school for a year. But mostly, she has worked as a substitute teacher. The spelling of her first name, she said, has nothing to do with her interest in Christmas carols.

Under her proposed measure, students who don't want to participate, or whose parents don't want them to participate, could be excused.

"They can have a holiday party in the other room," she said. "Or if they don't want a party, they can have social studies or some other learning experience."
Although California is one of the most diverse states in the nation, Hyatt believes the number of children opting out would be relatively small. In all of her years of teaching, she says, "I haven't run into a Jewish child."

Hyatt, who is making her first foray into politics, needs to collect 433,971 signatures by March 29 to qualify her measure for the statewide ballot. So far, she said, she has collected about 350.

Nevertheless, she is optimistic. Members of the Tea Party movement recently agreed to help collect signatures, she said, and she is lining up assistance from churches.

"People have been upset about it for years," she said. "There are a lot of Christian teachers who have to keep their mouths shut. It's hard. We just want to sing Christmas carols at the Christmas party."

If Hyatt gets her measure on the ballot and it is approved by voters, it would likely face legal challenges. But not everything with a religious element is banned from schools. Much would depend on the author's intent, legal experts say.

In California, schools may introduce a religious theme if the purpose is educational, such as illustrating a cultural or historical perspective.

"There is no direct law that says you can't use religious music for a secular purpose," Hersher said. "It's not just Christmas. All year round there are publicly sponsored choirs that are performing music like Bach requiems or Mozart concertos that were written for a religious purpose."

Pratheepan Gulasekaram, an assistant professor of law at Santa Clara University, said the legal question of Christmas carols in schools is not clear cut. Some symbols associated with religion have changed over time into secular images, he noted.

"Lots of people who are non-Christian have Christmas trees," he said. "There can be symbols that take on other meanings. The question might be, are carols like that?"

Hyatt said she got the idea for the initiative "from above" one day while she was sitting on her couch. At first, she rejected the notion. "But then I thought about the blessing I might get and I thought, 'Yeah, that would be worth it,'" she said.

Hyatt is so devoted that she said she attends three churches, Presbyterian, Evangelical and Catholic. She also mixes in a little Eastern philosophy.

"This is kind of far out there, but there is a possibility that we have had a previous life, and so maybe we are going to come back and do it again," she said. "How are you going to turn out if you don't know anything from the Bible?" (She added: "I was raised Presbyterian. They are kind of lackadaisical. I'm hoping in my next life that I could be Catholic.")

From Hyatt's perspective, the adoption of her initiative would merely allow teachers to respond to students' wishes.

"You can't tell children you can't have religion in school," she said. "December comes and they want Christmas. As a teacher, I am not going to stand there and put down Jesus to a classroom. I want it too."



Giving children the opportunity. I think its a great idea. I remember in science class we were to cut open frogs, I disagreed with it and was permitted to opt out. I think that same option should be available for subject matter that may coincide with personal beliefs or religion. The option should be there for those who wish to express it, without mandating it for those who dont. Choice should be for all and not just those who dont want it.

Jill298's photo
Fri 12/25/09 07:08 AM
Giving children the opportunity. I think its a great idea. I remember in science class we were to cut open frogs, I disagreed with it and was permitted to opt out. I think that same option should be available for subject matter that may coincide with personal beliefs or religion. The option should be there for those who wish to express it, without mandating it for those who dont. Choice should be for all and not just those who dont want it.

Why? I don't understand why religion should be in schools in schools at all.
As long as it's OPTIONAL, I don't have a big problem with it. I just don't see why it needs to be in school at all.
Notice, she's only fighting for her beliefs. She's not fighting for religion, she's fighting for HER religion in school.
And because they took "traditional" xmas carols out, doesn't really mean it was "ruined" for everyone.

Citizen_Joe's photo
Fri 12/25/09 07:22 AM
Free speech, freedom of religion. Not so free, otherwise lawyers would go to the poor houses.

msharmony's photo
Fri 12/25/09 09:05 AM

Giving children the opportunity. I think its a great idea. I remember in science class we were to cut open frogs, I disagreed with it and was permitted to opt out. I think that same option should be available for subject matter that may coincide with personal beliefs or religion. The option should be there for those who wish to express it, without mandating it for those who dont. Choice should be for all and not just those who dont want it.

Why? I don't understand why religion should be in schools in schools at all.
As long as it's OPTIONAL, I don't have a big problem with it. I just don't see why it needs to be in school at all.
Notice, she's only fighting for her beliefs. She's not fighting for religion, she's fighting for HER religion in school.
And because they took "traditional" xmas carols out, doesn't really mean it was "ruined" for everyone.



Upon reconsideration and out of a need to be consistent in my beliefs. I think schools shouldnt sanction religion. It is sad that something teaching love and responsibility is such a threat or insult to so many but so be it. Much the same way government sanctioning same sex relations is offensive to some(to many) this topic also offends many. I cant in good conscious stand against sanctioning same sex marriage without trying to understand those who stand against sanctioning religion. These are very personally held beliefs and standards and belong at home and not in the government or at school.

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