Thanks Miguel.

Now if I just had a good woman to share it with I’d be in great shape!

Abracadabra,

I choose the title, because "A woman should know her place" is a
sentence that has led to mistreatment of women for centuries. I was
using that as my title to empower women to choose for themselves. Men
have used the Bible to subjegate women and that ISN'T what the Bible
teaches. I realize that men need to know and any misogynist man would
be attracted to a thread titled "A woman should know her place" like a
moth to a flame, where they would find a reasoned argument using the
Bible to prove that women can and should work if they so desire. If I
started a thread bashing men for being misogynistic, their immediate
response would have been to get defensive. I also knew that women who
feel that the title is offensive would be brought in to read an
empowering message that has been in the Bible for thousands of years and
simply ignored by many men and religion. I created the thread as an act
of good will to let the women here know that Christianity appreciates
and loves them, even if men and religion hasn't always. I made the
correct choice for titles to attract the audience that I wanted to
attract.

Thank you Spider... You are very sensitive, thorough and wise...

Thank you Rapunzel, you are too kind. :)

Spider wrote:
“I made the correct choice for titles to attract the audience that I
wanted to attract..”

Good choice then.

I still hold that though the audience who *needs* to read the message
would be more attracted by the converse title.

One thing that you need to understand is that all ‘Christians’ will not
agree with you interpretations.

You state:
“Men have used the Bible to subjugate women and that ISN'T what the
Bible teaches.”

Men STILL DO use the Bible to subjugated women. I have been witness to
this myself. And whilst you claim that this ISN’T what the Bible
teachers, those men would simply denounce your interpretation.

You see, just because you claim to speak for all of Christianity doesn’t
mean a thing. There are many other’s out who do indeed interpret things
differently than you do. In fact, this is one of my biggest complaints
with dogmatic religions. They are, in fact, open to many differnet
interpretations.

In fact, when I give you my interpretation you flip out completely
claiming that I’m bashing the religion, but in fact it is just my honest
interpretation of the doctrine. My interpretation is that it is not
the word of god at all, but the words of men.

That is a VALID INTERPRETATION whether you wish to acknowledge it or
not.

In fact, when I try to share my interpretation with others, I also do
this as an act of goodwill.

I hear the sentiments...within your post, and how you interpret your
Bible's meanings...in an honourable, respectful, and honest way.




Call it gender hangover..whatever...but spider, I find the whole
scripture open to misinterpretation, (not by you, in this situation),

but historically.

And the whole who came first, the chicken or the egg, a man wrote that
God made man in HIS image FIRST, and all the other words that place male
over female, and I get a little combatative.

I respect your sentiments...

I find the whole sentiments of interpretations of others, through the
ages, rather distasteful.

actually spider the bible is talking about woman's only purpose is to be
a helper aka to procreate, hence why feminist see genesis as the text
which is androcentric... patriarchal in it's text men have used it to
oppresse women in the name of God... however if we really look at it the
bible is only 2,000 yrs old.. and genesis was written rougly in the 8th
century... so you tell me how we know the exact words of God to Adam and
then inform me on why Adam never talks to his Wife.. the bible was
written for men, by men, about men.. genesis attempts to explain how
we got here, where the world is , where we go , why the earth doesn't
always give up good grains, why women experience child pain, why we
die.. it's a story... it's not a literal thing... and if you think the
bible is literal i worry about you because i can only begin to think of
how many people you must have stoned to death for taking god's name in
vain, or how many sacrifices of animals you made to god, or how you
don't eat or touch pork, etc. etc.. etc...

Three Reasons for adams creation
1: from the ground, 2. given life from God's breath, and 3. then is
made to till the Earth.
Three Reasons why Eve is Created:
1: she is made second, 2. given life from man's rib, and 3. is made
only to procreate/ to be the helper of man.


Therefore man is created to be God's caretaker. He is given breath and
life from God's very own breath and is placed in God's world to help it
grow. Meanwhile, Eve is only created to give Adam a helper/ procreator
and she is created second and she does not receive God's breath she
receives life from man. Therefore Eve is considered inferior to Adam,
because she is his helper, as he is God's helper. In fact, she's so
inferior that God never talks to her until he accuses her of giving Adam
the fruit.

men of the church have said that this shows women is to man as man is
to god, women can't be priest or preachers in some churches because of
this text, some amazing theologians have siad that she was created from
his crooked rib..

As the philosopher says, " Woman is a misbegotten male.' Yet it is
necessary that woman was made in the first production of things as a
help mate. Not indeed as a helpmate in any works than procreation, for
in all other works man can be more efficiently helped by another man
then by a woman, but as a helper in the work of generation... The woman
is in a state of subjugation in the original order of things. For this
reason she cannot represent head ship in society or in the Church. Only
the male can represent Christ. For this reason it was necessary that
Christ be incarnated as a male. It follows, therefore, that she cannot
receive the sign of Holy Orders ~ Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologia~

Why must a woman cover her head? Because, as I explained before, the
woman does not possess the image of God in herself, but only when taken
together with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is
one image. But when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function
that pertains to her alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far
as the man is concerned, he is by himself alone the image of God, just
as fully and completely as when he and the woman are joined together
into one ~ St. Augustine, " On the Trinity" ~ .

Eve originally was more equally a partner with Adam, but because of sin
the present woman is far inferior creature. Because she is responsible
for the Fall, woman is in a state of subjugation. The man rules the home
and the world, wages war and tills the soil. The woman is like a nail
driven into the wall, she sits at home. ~ Martin Luther, " On Marriage"

sororitygurl4life,

I know you feel that way, but I'm not sure where you got that
understanding.

`ezer
-------------------------------------------------------------
1) help, succour
a) help, succour
b) one who helps
-------------------------------------------------------------

I really don't want to argue this, I don't see the reason. If you don't
agree with me, fine. But the word has nothing to do with woman being a
sex slave or a baby-making machine.

What you are suggesting is that God offered up animals for Adam to make
babys with and that doesn't make sense. God was looking for a companion
and equal for Adam, not just a lover.

he first goes through all the animals to let adam pick... adam doesnt
like any of those animals so god makes a new one for him, upon which
adam names that one as well.

Jess642,

I understand your concerns. The truth is that you can find examples in
the Bible of men who loved their wives greatly. Godly men have always
been moved by the Holy Spirit to treat women as equals. Mary Magdelene
surpassed all of the disciples in faith. It's only because the Jews
were a patriarchal soceity that she wasn't a full disciple. Jesus knew
she would be considered crazy or stoned for blaspheme if she tried to
spread the gospel. God has always loved women and made woman so that
men would love them. I am ashamed that God's word has been used for
subjegation of women and slavery and all other sorts of sinful
activities. That is what makes spiritual blindness so terrible, someone
who isn't guided by the Holy Spirit can use the Word to commit terrible
acts.

and spider you can sit here all day in threads and say how horrible that
is, but men much greater than you hence look above thomas aquinas
augustine, martin luther, and many others and society itself
continually go back to genesis to support its claims that woman is
second for a reason .... overall our society agrees with them which is
why the christian religion is also a patriarchal religion, then again
all organized religions are patriarchal with male dominate beings.

Spider, I have researched this very thing many times to understand. Here
is what I came up with. And by the way; I agree with much of what you
are saying.

Headship is a sticky issue; just mentioning it can get folks uptight.
This is probably because in the past some have misused scriptures about
headship to make women second-class members of the Body of Christ. Years
of abuse have made the parts of the Bible which discuss God's intended
structure for marriage a reason for a fight. Avoiding the issue
altogether is tempting, but rather than run from it, we need to find and
proclaim God's truth.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also
loved the church and gave Himself for her, Eph. 5:25

In both the Old and the New Testaments of the Bible, God uses the
husband and wife relationship to explain His relationship with us, His
people. He is supposed to emulate the perfect Christ, while the wife is
to emulate the very imperfect church .... now who has the worse end of
THAT deal?!? You will never be able to love and care for her the way
Jesus loves and cares for you, but the fact that you should may help to
understand who you are to be as husband and head.

Man IS NOT the head because he is smarter, better, or otherwise superior
to her in any way. He MUST understand that he is not the head because he
is smarter, better, or otherwise superior to her in any way. His
headship is positional; He's the head because God said so, not because
he deserves it in any way. Just as Jesus, who was equal to God in all
ways, submitted to the Father, so your wives, who are equal to you in
all ways eternal, are called to submit to you. God is a God of order,
and He requires us to submit to the order He created. When we do this,
things work well; when we don't, things end up a mess. While men are not
the head because they are better in any way, God always equips them to
do that which He calls them to; thus a man who seeks to be the head of
his marriage and household will be empowered by God to do the job beyond
his own natural ability.

Why being the head makes MAN a servant: Some think being the head makes
a man "the boss" who can do what he wants and demand what he wants. This
is not what God calls you to do as the head. When we look at Jesus, we
see that He was a servant leader. He never demanded or forced His will,
even when He knew those around Him were wrong. Jesus was actually
rejected by many Jews because He came to serve, not to rule. Likewise
husbands are called to serve their wives, not rule them. Yes, they are
to lead, but it's a leadership based on willing following, not on
coercion, force or fear.

It's not what either of us wants, it's about what God wants. How God
calls you to lead: It's not about doing it your way, and it's not about
doing it her way. Try thinking of it as being the head of the marriage;
the goal is not to rule her, but to guide and direct "us" as a couple.
Sometimes what's best for the marriage happens to be what you'd like;
sometimes it happens to be what she'd like; sometimes it's something
that neither of us really want to do. In short, it's not what either of
us wants, it's about what God wants.

Why you're a fool if you ignore your wife's input: Okay, fool is a
strong word, but what else would you call someone who makes decisions
without getting all the information? You're wife has a different
perspective than you do, and that perspective can be extremely valuable.
You should not only listen to your wife, you should seek her thoughts
and feelings before you make decisions. Peter suggests that men who
don't pay attention to their wives are crippling themselves in more ways
than one:

Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with
understanding, giving honor to the wife,
... that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet. 3:7

You're responsible to lead; You're not responsible for her following.
When the Church fails to follow the Lord, does that mean Jesus has
failed? NO!! Similarly, You're not a failure if your wife chooses not to
follow what you say. That's between her and God; it's not your place to
make her comply, and it's not your place to take punitive measures.


Kat

sororitygurl4life,

It is man's place to lead, but we are told to lead like Jesus leads.
Jesus lead by serving. I don't think anyone who believes the Bible
would deny that men have a place of authority over women, but that
authority comes with the threat of judgement and with the command
"Husbands love your wives". If you love someone, you wouldn't deny them
anything unless you knew it was bad for them. I would tell my wife "You
can't work at a strip club", but I wouldn't say "You can't be a
teacher". That's the kind of leadership a man should give, he should
correct his wife when she swerves from God's law. And it is a woman's
place to do the same for her husband.

Really, the whole "male dominated" part of Christianity comes down to
men having the final say in matters that effect the family, but he
should always make decisions that are meant to serve his wife and
children.

the bible is open to interpretation ultimately nothign any of us has to
say in this forum matters, what does matter is that the heads of the
church sees it one way, women is submissive to man end of story whether
you see it that way or not.

ultimately if your religion teaches you that spider, i'm glad i'm not
part of it, because no man has any authority over me at all , if
anything when i choose to be in a relationship we will make decisions
together because that's a real marriage, where we decide what's best for
ourselves and our children and finances etc as a couple not as the man
having the final say so, and let's face it if there is an ultimate being
i doubt he cares which beings have a penis and which have a vagina, i'm
sure hes concerned with the actual soul and worth of the being then
their genitals

you know side by side, on the top,on the bottom,
doesent really worry me just dont like trouble n strife.

Nice post Kat.

(I say that a lot don't I)

How can a man expect to be treated with repect if he does not give it.
Or as an equal if he does not treat as an equal the one he chooses to
bring into his life, the one who also chooses him.

scttrbrain,

I agree with you. I wasn't clear when I said "but responsiblity for the
family's failures fall squarely onto the man's shoulders" I meant under
his leadership. There are scriptures that tell a father to not drive
his children to frustration. If a father was so strict with his child
that the child left, it's his fault. If his wife decides to join a cult
and he doesn't actively try to pull her back to the church, it's his
fault. If the family wastes their money and can't pay their bills, it's
his fault for not making the family tighten their belts. We are each
responsible for our own actions and a man will be found guilty anytime
he shirks his responsiblity.