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| Topic: Killing off the Gays/The Cleansing of Iraq | |
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Do we have the right to interfere with their Laws in Iraq? I don't think we do legally, but that doesn't mean we can't bring sanctions against a country who does such things. But we are talking about a people that live in the ancient past. It maybe a century or two before there is any change in that fundamental practice. The fear of public disgrace is a pathetic inhumane excuse to kill a group of people that in 99% of cases is not violent or worthy of being killed. I can hardly type this makes me so angry. I don't know how I could ever have any respect for a people or religious institution that would condone such a thing. In fact I can't, and I put the blame squarely on religious interpretations of ancient religion. Oh but homophobes had no involvement in the writings in the bible.. Oh please, you hate homophobes and they hate homos. Whats the difference. Its cool to pick a side and be against something, its lame to pontificate like you are the moral and good one. Its no different than their insistence god is on THEIR side. Actually I do not hate homophobes, but their ignorance distresses me for sure. There is a huge difference even if I did hate them. But I am sick to death of explaining them to people that it wouldn't bother to take the time to research it on their own. But I would not expect you to have responded in any other way. Oh and you know me so well, I have been here like a week? What is ignorant about not liking something? Why does not liking gays make one afraid of them? Why is hating someone for your reason morally better than hating someone for another persons reason? The OP is talking about lives being taken in the most hideous of ways and all your thinking about is oil independence.. ugh No I am explaining yet another unintended consequence of being so tied to every country in the world for critical economic things. It makes us impotent abroad to prevent any human rights abuse. I am on your side likely about human rights abuse, but we have to tolerate this because we need the oil. We have to tolerate the opium in afghanistan to have any hope of winning. We have to give china most favored nation trade status while they do unspeakable things because we need their manufacturing. Im trying to point out that the social and economic are related. When you use the word homos, you give away your attitude. I don't dislike people that dislike gays, because often time when they get to know gays they no longer have those attitues. I dislike their 'attitude' about gays because it's irrational and emotional and leads to more ugly words being exchange and violence toward a group that has never done anything to the person doing the violence, verbally or physically. Yes my attitude about this behavior is definately and deeply emotional. And yes i do tend to take it personally that people like me are so hated some would kill us to make their own lives more livable and in the name of Gods I have never even seen, nor have they. Not liking gays is not the same as not liking a sport or a table, we are talking about human beings, not objects. I am not understanding why we must tolerate this due to oil. But I also don't share the view that we should have no connection to the world outside our own country. I never understood giving china most favored nation status either. I do think the more isolated we are from other countries the more slowly we evolve as human beings. I do not know the answer to this, I wish I did. I can only empathize with those who's lives are so fragile due to the rigid religious views of many human beings. It's very sad indeed. The more diverse we are as a country the more we are forced to face our prejudices and change comes slowly but surely. |
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Do we have the right to interfere with their Laws in Iraq? I don't think we do legally, but that doesn't mean we can't bring sanctions against a country who does such things. But we are talking about a people that live in the ancient past. It maybe a century or two before there is any change in that fundamental practice. The fear of public disgrace is a pathetic inhumane excuse to kill a group of people that in 99% of cases is not violent or worthy of being killed. I can hardly type this makes me so angry. I don't know how I could ever have any respect for a people or religious institution that would condone such a thing. In fact I can't, and I put the blame squarely on religious interpretations of ancient religion. Oh but homophobes had no involvement in the writings in the bible.. Oh please, you hate homophobes and they hate homos. Whats the difference. Its cool to pick a side and be against something, its lame to pontificate like you are the moral and good one. Its no different than their insistence god is on THEIR side. Actually I do not hate homophobes, but their ignorance distresses me for sure. There is a huge difference even if I did hate them. But I am sick to death of explaining them to people that it wouldn't bother to take the time to research it on their own. But I would not expect you to have responded in any other way. Oh and you know me so well, I have been here like a week? What is ignorant about not liking something? Why does not liking gays make one afraid of them? Why is hating someone for your reason morally better than hating someone for another persons reason? The OP is talking about lives being taken in the most hideous of ways and all your thinking about is oil independence.. ugh No I am explaining yet another unintended consequence of being so tied to every country in the world for critical economic things. It makes us impotent abroad to prevent any human rights abuse. I am on your side likely about human rights abuse, but we have to tolerate this because we need the oil. We have to tolerate the opium in afghanistan to have any hope of winning. We have to give china most favored nation trade status while they do unspeakable things because we need their manufacturing. Im trying to point out that the social and economic are related. When you use the word homos, you give away your attitude. I don't dislike people that dislike gays, because often time when they get to know gays they no longer have those attitues. I dislike their 'attitude' about gays because it's irrational and emotional and leads to more ugly words being exchange and violence toward a group that has never done anything to the person doing the violence, verbally or physically. -----------Oh stop it. You dont know anything about my attitudes about them. I work with a queer who waves a dont tread on me flag at the tea parties we go to.....and he can take a fag joke, why cant you. He doesnt need people like you defending him. I dont get pissed at white jokes and I have walked up countless times on black guys talking about honkies or crackers or mexicans talking about gringo this or that. I dont run off to sue, every culture thinks its better than everyone else, its no more significant than being a yankees fan and hating the red sox. Almost any game they fight one another. Perhaps a law providing additional penalties for a sox fan punching a yankees fan? I use the words I use because I hate political correctness. I consider it a mental illness and dont believe in assigning a word that much power. Thats a bigger problem than hatred. ------- Yes my attitude about this behavior is definately and deeply emotional. And yes i do tend to take it personally that people like me are so hated some would kill us to make their own lives more livable and in the name of Gods I have never even seen, nor have they. -------Thats understandable. Whats not is claiming that christian america is on par with sharia. Most american churches have gay clergy now as an official policy. We know its obviously condoned unspokenly for he catholics. So you basically have the baptists and a few evangelicals. Their chief activity is advocating for or against certain laws. They have a right to do that. It may be annoying, like when I cant buy a beer for a sunday game in some counties, but its hardly like what they do in muslim communities, not even remotely close. ----------------- Not liking gays is not the same as not liking a sport or a table, we are talking about human beings, not objects. -------Its no different at all. I have met so many people I didnt like in my life I cant even count them all. I am not immoral for not liking them. I have a right to set the criteria for who I hang out with and make exceptions to my own rules. How is telling someone who they must like and adding legal penalties for not exercising your own right to association in ways that boo2u chooses any different to what they do in the middle east? ------------------- I am not understanding why we must tolerate this due to oil. But I also don't share the view that we should have no connection to the world outside our own country. I never understood giving china most favored nation status either. I do think the more isolated we are from other countries the more slowly we evolve as human beings. -----------Because they can raise the price of oil and destroy us in a week. Everything is made with oil in it or energy it provides and shipped with it as the fuel...theres probably not one thing in your house oil was not used to make. Having a connection or traveling to foreign lands is different to being dependent on them for critical economic things. We are one of the only countries that could be self sufficient, and we should be. At least we agree on China:) How is keeping our main industry...energy, food, manufacturing, military.....domestic in any way isolating us or slowing human "evolvement". What do you mean by that, what are we evolving into? -------------------- I do not know the answer to this, I wish I did. I can only empathize with those who's lives are so fragile due to the rigid religious views of many human beings. It's very sad indeed. The more diverse we are as a country the more we are forced to face our prejudices and change comes slowly but surely. I think you are right bout that. I think forcing the change makes people defensive and reactionary. I have always laid alot of the anti-gay violence at the feet of the militant gay activists who insist on being as gross and offensive as possible in their parades and activism. Who you screw shouldnt be that big of a deal and if it wasnt made into a subculture of mjilitants there would be alot more open minds in this country. |
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I think it's slightly strange of us to examine Islam and it's abuses with out discussing Christianity and it's abuses down through history. Because we can not legally kill homosexuals in this country doesn't mean we don't make their existence as unpleasent and the religious right wants to make sure the inequality continues, but we focus on Islam? Why? Our attitudes are no better. Are you saying it's better they kill them off rather than have to live the life you describe? Or, just overlook their actions. BTW, oil is a big part of the reason it's covered up, not addressed and is accepted. Saudi Arabia has the same practice. Ain't he the king Hussein bowed before and who he reveres? Not sure I quite follow you, but .... Don't assume we all live in fear, or that we all are exposed daily to bigots. Thankfully that is far less these days. Though the values voters would like to see that change. I have been very lucky in my life to have never experienced the ugly side of prejudice, though I see it a lot online. It's interesting out here in the real world people aren't as brave as they are online or in certain circles. No one dares to make smart remarks to me about being gay, probably because I am upfront about it and I will verbally take them on if they try. Homophobes like the cover of like minded people or an audience of like minded people to share their dislikes of the gay community. Few will be so bold face to face, at least to my face. But many gays aren't as open and un-intimidated by intolerance. Many can't be out about it for many different reasons. My actions are non of anyone's business, just as your's are not my business as long as you are not harming anyone. So this over look business is just another attempt at intimidation. I would not over look it if you were out there having sexual relations in my front yard. Nor would i expect others to tolerate that of our community. It's just respect. You are forced to tolerate me by law, but I don't ask for that. Just don't share you intolerance to my face and expect me to keep quite. To assume I should be tolerated is telling me there is something wrong with me, while you might assume there's nothing wrong with that attitude. Words say more than one admits. By the way I can be respectful of a leader with out sharing their views, I suspect that Obama feels similarly. Anyway I am a bit over tired this morning so I am not sure I am making much sense.. |
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Do we have the right to interfere with their Laws in Iraq? I don't think we do legally, but that doesn't mean we can't bring sanctions against a country who does such things. But we are talking about a people that live in the ancient past. It maybe a century or two before there is any change in that fundamental practice. The fear of public disgrace is a pathetic inhumane excuse to kill a group of people that in 99% of cases is not violent or worthy of being killed. I can hardly type this makes me so angry. I don't know how I could ever have any respect for a people or religious institution that would condone such a thing. In fact I can't, and I put the blame squarely on religious interpretations of ancient religion. Oh but homophobes had no involvement in the writings in the bible.. Oh please, you hate homophobes and they hate homos. Whats the difference. Its cool to pick a side and be against something, its lame to pontificate like you are the moral and good one. Its no different than their insistence god is on THEIR side. Actually I do not hate homophobes, but their ignorance distresses me for sure. There is a huge difference even if I did hate them. But I am sick to death of explaining them to people that it wouldn't bother to take the time to research it on their own. But I would not expect you to have responded in any other way. Oh and you know me so well, I have been here like a week? What is ignorant about not liking something? Why does not liking gays make one afraid of them? Why is hating someone for your reason morally better than hating someone for another persons reason? The OP is talking about lives being taken in the most hideous of ways and all your thinking about is oil independence.. ugh No I am explaining yet another unintended consequence of being so tied to every country in the world for critical economic things. It makes us impotent abroad to prevent any human rights abuse. I am on your side likely about human rights abuse, but we have to tolerate this because we need the oil. We have to tolerate the opium in afghanistan to have any hope of winning. We have to give china most favored nation trade status while they do unspeakable things because we need their manufacturing. Im trying to point out that the social and economic are related. When you use the word homos, you give away your attitude. I don't dislike people that dislike gays, because often time when they get to know gays they no longer have those attitues. I dislike their 'attitude' about gays because it's irrational and emotional and leads to more ugly words being exchange and violence toward a group that has never done anything to the person doing the violence, verbally or physically. -----------Oh stop it. You dont know anything about my attitudes about them. I work with a queer who waves a dont tread on me flag at the tea parties we go to.....and he can take a fag joke, why cant you. He doesnt need people like you defending him. I dont get pissed at white jokes and I have walked up countless times on black guys talking about honkies or crackers or mexicans talking about gringo this or that. I dont run off to sue, every culture thinks its better than everyone else, its no more significant than being a yankees fan and hating the red sox. Almost any game they fight one another. Perhaps a law providing additional penalties for a sox fan punching a yankees fan? I use the words I use because I hate political correctness. I consider it a mental illness and dont believe in assigning a word that much power. Thats a bigger problem than hatred. ------- Yes my attitude about this behavior is definately and deeply emotional. And yes i do tend to take it personally that people like me are so hated some would kill us to make their own lives more livable and in the name of Gods I have never even seen, nor have they. -------Thats understandable. Whats not is claiming that christian america is on par with sharia. Most american churches have gay clergy now as an official policy. We know its obviously condoned unspokenly for he catholics. So you basically have the baptists and a few evangelicals. Their chief activity is advocating for or against certain laws. They have a right to do that. It may be annoying, like when I cant buy a beer for a sunday game in some counties, but its hardly like what they do in muslim communities, not even remotely close. ----------------- Not liking gays is not the same as not liking a sport or a table, we are talking about human beings, not objects. -------Its no different at all. I have met so many people I didnt like in my life I cant even count them all. I am not immoral for not liking them. I have a right to set the criteria for who I hang out with and make exceptions to my own rules. How is telling someone who they must like and adding legal penalties for not exercising your own right to association in ways that boo2u chooses any different to what they do in the middle east? ------------------- I am not understanding why we must tolerate this due to oil. But I also don't share the view that we should have no connection to the world outside our own country. I never understood giving china most favored nation status either. I do think the more isolated we are from other countries the more slowly we evolve as human beings. -----------Because they can raise the price of oil and destroy us in a week. Everything is made with oil in it or energy it provides and shipped with it as the fuel...theres probably not one thing in your house oil was not used to make. Having a connection or traveling to foreign lands is different to being dependent on them for critical economic things. We are one of the only countries that could be self sufficient, and we should be. At least we agree on China:) How is keeping our main industry...energy, food, manufacturing, military.....domestic in any way isolating us or slowing human "evolvement". What do you mean by that, what are we evolving into? -------------------- I do not know the answer to this, I wish I did. I can only empathize with those who's lives are so fragile due to the rigid religious views of many human beings. It's very sad indeed. The more diverse we are as a country the more we are forced to face our prejudices and change comes slowly but surely. I think you are right bout that. I think forcing the change makes people defensive and reactionary. I have always laid alot of the anti-gay violence at the feet of the militant gay activists who insist on being as gross and offensive as possible in their parades and activism. Who you screw shouldnt be that big of a deal and if it wasnt made into a subculture of mjilitants there would be alot more open minds in this country. Ah well we have some agreement here. I have often said to people in the gay community, stop scaring the crapola out of people and maybe they can relate to you. But remember the people in gay parades are not the majority of gays. And think of it another way. They have more guts that we do. But it doesn't help their cause. I would say anger motivates militant activists. While I might be angry about ignorance I don't see flagrant behavior as making a statement that helps people to understand, especially people who are influenced by the church. My life is as happy and as boring as anyone else's. I don't scare my neighbors. I don't sport a gay flag on my house. Not because I am afraid to, but because it accomplishes nothing. People aren't stupid, they know I am gay, I know I am gay, but because I don't flaunt it, and because I have given them no reason to fear me, my experience is much different. I might be missing another side to this I have no thought of, but I at this point agree with you on the militancy. |
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Ok, I think I am missing something,,,,
It is AGAINST the law there to do this. So what sanctions can we pose when it isnt the government who is guilty but their fanatics within the society. Do we realize the murders that happen HERE in the states? They happen for reasons like racial hatred, sexism, classism ,but they are still ILLEGAL. Because they continue to happen doesnt give another country a right to come down on us in any way. Government can set laws and beyond that,, how their people abide by them is not something they can be held accountable for. |
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Ok, I think I am missing something,,,, It is AGAINST the law there to do this. So what sanctions can we pose when it isnt the government who is guilty but their fanatics within the society. Do we realize the murders that happen HERE in the states? They happen for reasons like racial hatred, sexism, classism ,but they are still ILLEGAL. Because they continue to happen doesnt give another country a right to come down on us in any way. Government can set laws and beyond that,, how their people abide by them is not something they can be held accountable for. I would have to agree, but I don't believe for a second that the Iraqi government exactly tries to stop it either. Hell in this country we don't exactly knock ourselves out standing up for gays, instead we foster prejudice against them and go out of our way to prevent anyone from teaching simple respect and acceptance in schools. Individually we remain silent when things are said that are ignorant among our friends. Even in the black community where you would think there would be some empathy for being hated for something about you that is different. |
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Ok, I think I am missing something,,,, It is AGAINST the law there to do this. So what sanctions can we pose when it isnt the government who is guilty but their fanatics within the society. Do we realize the murders that happen HERE in the states? They happen for reasons like racial hatred, sexism, classism ,but they are still ILLEGAL. Because they continue to happen doesnt give another country a right to come down on us in any way. Government can set laws and beyond that,, how their people abide by them is not something they can be held accountable for. Great post. Same goes for hating the local baptist church because some jackass pipe bombs the local baby scraping joint. Just because someone is against gay marriage doesnt mean they have some deep fear of gay people and hate them and want to kill them. yet this is how they are made out and they point to this handful of kooks as proof. Its totally unfair. |
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Ok, I think I am missing something,,,, It is AGAINST the law there to do this. So what sanctions can we pose when it isnt the government who is guilty but their fanatics within the society. Do we realize the murders that happen HERE in the states? They happen for reasons like racial hatred, sexism, classism ,but they are still ILLEGAL. Because they continue to happen doesnt give another country a right to come down on us in any way. Government can set laws and beyond that,, how their people abide by them is not something they can be held accountable for. I would have to agree, but I don't believe for a second that the Iraqi government exactly tries to stop it either. Hell in this country we don't exactly knock ourselves out standing up for gays, instead we foster prejudice against them and go out of our way to prevent anyone from teaching simple respect and acceptance in schools. Individually we remain silent when things are said that are ignorant among our friends. Even in the black community where you would think there would be some empathy for being hated for something about you that is different. I disagree. Gays enjoy special legal protections. |
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Christianity has rebuked that history and even the babylonian/roman church has apologized. I'm taking this statement out of its original context, but it remains very significant in the context of this thread. The path from witch burnings to the current level of tolerance was a long one, spanning hundreds of years. IF if if the global economy continues to function, I think its extremely likely that Islam will follow a vaguely similar path |
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Edited by
massagetrade
on
Sat 09/26/09 11:42 AM
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Because they continue to happen doesnt give another country a right to come down on us in any way. Government can set laws and beyond that,, how their people abide by them is not something they can be held accountable for. I partly agree with the first sentence, but not the second. The police and the courts are given the job of enforcing the law - if they aren't, then they aren't doing their job. The police and the courts should be held accountable for enforcement. (Though I only consider myself to have a voice wrt the police in the US - not other countries.) |
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Hell in this country we don't exactly knock ourselves out standing up for gays, instead we foster prejudice against them and go out of our way to prevent anyone from teaching simple respect and acceptance in schools. Individually we remain silent when things are said that are ignorant among our friends.
Even in the black community where you would think there would be some empathy for being hated for something about you that is different. Ok, as a black woman, I have to comment on this one. I am guilty as charged of not 'standing up' for things I believe are inappropriate. That is my right. I do however stand up for treating all people with respect,whether I agree with all their actions or not. I think those two things need to be seperated,,respecting others vs supporting their choices or agreeing with them. As far as respect for ALL people. That should be taught at home and enforced at school through example, not a separate class for every segment of society that currently exists. Just respect HUMAN beings is well enough without all the details of what those humans may be doing or not doing. I do agree that many people do remain silent when ignorance is spouted. I think that is because of our conflicting ideas about americanism though. On the one hand it should be ok to march and protest for your cause but on the other hand, because everyone has a RIGHT to choose their life, it is frowned upon to have an opinion about anyones choice. Just as it is not always comfortable for me to be open about my feelings on the homosexual lifestyle, it is just as uncomfortable for many to cause a potential confrontation because of different opinions. Americans have not been taught very well to disagree respectfully or even in some cases,,peacefully. |
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Our part of the killing of Homosexuals in Iraq is, the ones that are shot, are shot with the ammo we supply them.
It is the Iraqi military who are carring out their Law along with Iraqi police. They wouldn't do it if it were illegal there. |
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Edited by
Winx
on
Sat 09/26/09 01:26 PM
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-----------Oh stop it. You dont know anything about my attitudes about them. I work with a queer who waves a dont tread on me flag at the tea parties we go to.....and he can take a fag joke, why cant you. He doesnt need people like you defending him. Your attitude is an obvious one - "homos, queer, fag". You said, "I dont get pissed at white jokes." I don't either. I do wonder if it's because we're not a minority. We haven't walked in minority people's shoes. We can't relate to what they've gone through. |
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Wow! This one almost slipped through the crack. Those intellegent folks over in the White House are responsable for knowing about this. Or maybe it's not our right to interfere with their right to their Law. They just doin' what Muslims do. Why, do we have to get this news from media outside the US. Why isn't it reported here? Anti-gay attacks on rise in Iraq 17 August 2009 Being gay in Baghdad is dangerous and secrecy is paramount Gay Iraqi men are being murdered in what appears to be a co-ordinated campaign involving militia forces, the group Human Rights Watch says. It says hundreds of gay men have been targeted and killed in Iraq since 2004. So-called honour killings also account for deaths where families punish their own kin in order to avoid public shame. The report says members of the Mehdi Army militia group are spearheading the campaign, but police are also accused - even though homosexuality is legal. Witnesses say vigilante groups break into homes and pick people up in the street, interrogating them to extract the names of other potential victims, before murdering them. "Murder and torture are no way to enforce morality," said HRW researcher Rasha Moumneh, quoted in the report. "These killings point to the continuing and lethal failure of Iraq's post-occupation authorities to establish the rule of law and protect their citizens." In some cases, Human Rights Watch says it was told, Iraqi security forces had actually "colluded and joined in the killing". Witch-hunt Recently, posters appeared in Sadr City - a conservative, Shia area of Baghdad - calling on people to watch out for gay men and listing not only their names but also their addresses. One gay man in Baghdad described the killing campaign as a witch-hunt. These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men Saddam's rule 'better' for gay Iraqis Iraqi gay men face 'lives of hell' Nearly 90 gay men have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of January and many more are missing, local gay rights campaigners say. The report, called They want us exterminated: Murder, Torture, Sexual Orientation and Gender in Iraq, says horrifically mutilated bodies of gay men have been left on rubbish tips. Sometimes their bodies are daubed with offensive terms such as "pervert", or "puppy" which is a hate word for gay men in Iraq. The report contains detailed testimonies of a range of brutal treatment of gay Iraqi men. "We've heard stories confirmed by doctors of men having their anuses glued and then being force-fed laxatives which leads to a very painful death," says Ms Moumneh told the BBC. 'Feminised men' When questioned in the past, officials in Iraq have condemned the killings, but the BBC's Natalia Antelava in Baghdad reports that gay men there say nothing has been done to protect them. "These killings will continue, because it has simply become normal in Iraq to kill gay men," said a gay Iraqi man who did not want to be named. Mehdi army spokesmen and clerics have condemned what they call the "feminisation" of Iraqi men and have urged the military to take action against them. The report said many gay men have fled to other countries in the region, despite consensual homosexual activity being illegal there, because the risk of victimisation is reduced. HRW says the threats and abuses have spread from Baghdad to Kirkuk, Najaf and Basra, although persecution remains concentrated in the capital. Officials say part of the problem in dealing with the attacks is that victims' relatives seldom if ever provide information to the police. "They consider talking about the subject worse than the crime itself. This is the nature of our society," ministry spokesman Major General Abdul-Karim Khalaf said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8204853.stm Ohhh...Willing. My heart is breaking as I read this. 
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Willing, you are raising a lot of good questions in this thread.
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I think it's slightly strange of us to examine Islam and it's abuses with out discussing Christianity and it's abuses down through history. Because we can not legally kill homosexuals in this country doesn't mean we don't make their existence as unpleasent and the religious right wants to make sure the inequality continues, but we focus on Islam? Why? Our attitudes are no better. It may be illegal to kill gays here but it's still happening. |
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No human should be discriminated against for sexual orientation as long as it is with consenting adults. It is an international issue. There should be pressure put on them from all nations to stop the practice. The middle east is majority Muslim. I see no way the whole middle east can be pressured to do anything, much less change centuries old Laws.  Its not because they are muslim. All these right wing conservative republican countries have problems with discrimination. Its because the Middle east is too far to the right They need an infusion of liberalism in their societies
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Willing, you are raising a lot of good questions in this thread.  And I just answered it
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Why do all the rightwing republican countries hate each other(like Israel and most of the Middle East) but the left wing countries(like Canada and United Kingdom)all get along?
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Do we have the right to interfere with their Laws in Iraq? NO..does Iraq have the right to interfere with our laws? |
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