I have heard that. It is good to get a little spiritual once in a
while.

Rainbow, I think the verses you quote are some of the reason why there
is so much discontent within the Christian community. Many try so hard
to incorporate old and new testament by keeping the "thought, word and
deed" law alive. But it comes into confilict with the doctrine that
salvation lies only in grace and that grace can come only through
acceptance of Jesus. From this acceptance come the Holy Spirit.

My post was because I wondered how so many determine that the Holy
Spirit can only follow acceptance of Jesus.

There are many testimonies of personal afliction, disease poverty,
drugs, loss of loved ones, home and the like. This testimony often
includes amazing stories of miraculous recovery, or some reason they
should have been dead yet did not die, and eventually the miricle that
let them to their believe in Jesus.

If I believed in such things, I would would have to say that it was the
Holy Spirit that was with them all along. How else would they have been
guided?


Yet they persist in presenting this confilicting doctrine that maintains
that only after accepting Jesus can you be filled and guided by the Holy
Spirit.

That is where the verses you quote come into play. Even Jesus upheld
the idea of thought word and deed. And it seems to me that if one is
going to believe in the Holy Trinity, I can not understand how they can
maintain that any portion of this trinity is dependend on one to get to
another. It is all supposed to be ONE WORD - God, one being with three
ways to communicate. God can not be seen, Jesus physical presence is no
longer, only the Holy Spirit can tie the three together in our world.

For this reason I will never understand the separation or dependance of
one on another. It is also for this reason that so many have chosen to
live their religious or spiritual lives outside the realm of doctrine
and dogma and confinement of that spirit within an organized hirearchy
of religious dictation.

Red, I think the word of the law and the spirit of the law can be
construed differently. As you noticed he was talking to a lawyer. Same
things as when he was talking to the woman at the well. I think Jesus
was a good speaker because he always targeted who he was speaking to. He
was like the old Psalms verse in that he was as wise as a serpent but
harmless as a dove. I really liked Socrates but Jesus is my favorite
masochist.

I know some that are wise as doves and harmless as a serpent.

I really am trying to find balance in my life because I don't want to be
hung on a cross for being Christian; Stabbed by a wooden stake for being
a vampire; Burned at the stake for being a witch or martyrlized in any
other way. I came into this life human and thats the way I want to go
out.