Determinism:

Total determinism is impossible because it would be totally dependent on awareness , choice of action, thought, and attention of all entities involved in any event, large or small. Possible outcomes are infinite.

Freedom of choice is a choice of action and is covered in Creative's post quite well. It even has a mathematical formula. I don't know how accurate that formula is though.

"Free Will" <------is in quotations because it is an incorrect term. The "free" part is redundant. The Will acts in degrees of awareness. It is simply your power to direct your attention or thoughts or actions by your choice. You either use that power or you do not. Your will is either used (strong) or not (weak.) A person is considered either strong willed or weak willed. This can change by choice. The will is never 'imprisoned.' It is always 'free.' One simply has to realize this power to direct your attention and thoughts.

This is my premise. The will is the power to direct your attention and thoughts.

"Freedom of choice" is not on the same level as THE WILL and the two should not be confused with each other.

What if you only think your choice is free?

And if I say take my Morphine Album free of charge, its very clear what is free, and what free means.

What is free choice? Is that choice where there is no conditions placed on the choice? Where conditions are what hamper freedom? Choice without what? Free from what? Saying determinism DOES NOT ANSWER the question. That is called a negative definition and does not tell you what something is, it tells you what something is not.

Also using the same word to define the meaning of the word is circular and does not add new information.

We say we are in the land of the free, but does that mean we are free from the consequences of our actions?

What if you are nothing but a highly complex program that is constantly changing, and able to in a limited way direct those changes? What is the limit before freedom is lost?

Where is the line in the sand?

So we have negative and circular definitions for this thing called free will.


I like it, but then we must ask ourselves how much control do we get over our will, and how much is genetic?

Let me ask you this, how much control do you have over the things you think are tasty? Do you choose what you like to eat and what you do not like to eat?

Have you ever seen a person who was the epitome of weak will change to a strong willed person over night?

I think JB is on the right track abandoning the idiotic notion of free anything. Free is a relative term and useless in defining phenomena in a world where nothing is isolated and able to act independent.

Interesting thread on the JREF.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148350

Just to reiterate, this thread is AWESOME. If you really do like this topic, and want to be a fly on the wall of mathematicians, computer scientists, physicists, and amateurs with applicable knowledge, you should read that thread.

If you mean can I consciously 'decide' that something bitter and rotten tastes good? ...for the most part in a case like that, NO, I can't.

For example, I hate blue cheese. What I "think or choose" has little to do with it. My stomach cannot tolerate it and if it barely touches my taste buds my stomach turns upside down and instantly throws up everything. If I ever wanted to throw up all I would need to do is put a little blue cheese on my tongue.

But I did finally convince myself to 'like' spinach. I had tried it dozens of times when I was young and my logic was that I 'should' like it because I like many other green vegetables. I kept trying it every once in a while, and one day... it became agreeable. Did I do that? I don't know but at least I kept trying to like it and I finally did.






It is difficult sometimes to judge a persons resolve or will by the way they choose to act. I have seen meek mild soft spoken women who never stand up for themselves transform into vicious defenders of their children at the slightest threat. I have seen polite gracious meek people become cold and ruthless in a game of cards.

But yes, I have seen a person whom I would have bet everything I had that she would never quit smoking.. she was so hooked. She was on oxygen even, and still smoking.

Then something happened and she quit cold turkey. What could possibly have happened to her that she would quit after a lifetime of being hooked?

Well this:
Her face caught on fire when she lit a cigarette while wearing her oxygen. She could have very easily died if she had been inhaling. Her lungs would have been burned up.

Her will to quit was a decision that she initiated over night. It was always there, she just needed some motivation. It can happen to anyone.

The will is always there to be used. It can easily be accessed and used. Some people just need the right motivation.

Seems like a wrong assumption may lead to the wrong conclusion -- for instance:

Not necessarily, even a negative definition is precise enough for an answer...
Example:
The result of an equation -- "2+2=" -- is defined as
NOT 1,
NOT 2,
NOT 3,
NOT 5 or anything above...

Clearly, such a Negative definition DOES indicate what something IS! ! ! (zero is excluded cuz the sum of the positive numbers must be greater then zero)

One must clearly define away everything that something is not in order to go about identifying what is left.

What is is a much more concise answer.

One's will is determined by ones perceptual faculty. What one believes about perceived correlation determines not only which choices one recognizes, but also the possibility of choice one can even be capable of making.

In order to choose 'A', one must first recognize the existence of 'A', for choice presupposes volition.

That is irrefutable.

One is no more responsible for a purely random event than they are for a pre-determined one.

Knowing that the will is determined by belief provides the most freedom one can possibly have to 'better' guide their own thinking/will!

Call it random or call it divine intervention and pre-destination...whatever you call it:

I once read something along the lines of "God knows all possible outcomes."


Regardless of a particular faith outlook or lack thereof, that satisfied the debate between pre-destination and free will in my mind. There is some blend of both that we can't comprehend.

For whatever it's worth...

I believe that the very notion has a religious basis.

It is my understanding that the term 'free will' is actually a religious one which was invoked by clergy and theologians in order to exhonerate the 'God' of Abraham from creating - and therefore being responsible for - evil or wrongdoing.

It has been said that Adam and Eve were given free will to choose between right(good) and wrong(evil) while living in Eden. The instruction from 'God' was to not eat of the tree of knowledge. They used their free will to choose otherwise, and upon doing so became aware of the difference between right(good) and wrong(evil), which is why they felt ashamed of theor nakedness afterwards.

That is an old argument which I have read many times from many different authors from both sides. There is one particular illogical thing which rears up when I think about it...

If the tree of knowledge contained the wisdom to know the difference between right and wrong, then how could Adam and Eve be held responsible for their wrongful actions before they knew the difference, which came after that choice to take from the tree?

Anyway...

What makes the most sense to me is that the will is determined by one's belief structure/perceptual faculty, and that that can be influenced. Therefore, if one embraces this type of deterministic view, one can truly be able to willfully influence their perception according to what they choose to expose their thinking to.

That is why one's belief system is so vital.

Good points but I can see you are looking at it from the opposite direction than I am. I believe that it is not 'the person' (or personality/ego) who guides the will, it is the will that guides the personality/ego.

(The will is the spiritual awareness, or 'soul' and 'the person' is the ego or the mind.)IMO. But that is only self evident to me, I realize you don't see it from this direction.

The set of natural numbers is infinite, try this one 25^50*15^25, now use a negative definitions to resolve this answer before you die of old age? Not going to happen without a super computer.

If only free will was as easy as 2+2, then we could all brush off our hands and be done with it regardless of positive or negative definitions.

My statements stands negative definitions tell you what something is not, not what something is, even with a neg def, you must then use analysis to reach a conclusion, it provides very little information for your analysis and in a large set its near on useless.

A very important distinction Creative is making here.

Random does not solve free will. A random choice is no more free then a pre-determined one.

QM solves NOTHING in the free will Vs pre-determinism dispute. Even when we look at neurons in the brain, we do not need QM to explain any mental phenomena, it does not solve any problems, it just allows someone to sound smart when they admit they don't know.

Occam's razor applies...

Why invoke the addition of spirit when the explanation needs none?

Hand waving.

And I would go one step further and say that appealing to the undefined to explain a phenomena is nothing more then saying you dont know.

___________________________________-

Abra have you had a chance to read that thread over at the JREF? I think it right up your ally.






I am on page 5 and rather enjoying myself.

Indeed.



Now, to answer that question:

(For me, spirit is self evident. I don't 'invoke' it, I begin with it because is is self evident to me.)

For you and other 'realists' a careful thinking about most things can find an explanation to suit anything you believe.

Using my premise, 'random' IS THE WILL IN ACTION. It is not a question of what solves what. You say a random choice is not free? I beg to differ. A random choice is the most free choice of all.

(Are we "responsible" for our own random choices? --Of course we are.) Does a lower animal pay the consequences for its random choices? Yes it does.

Random choice is not done by will. If you can randomly call numbers between 1 and 6, integers, then that's good for you. But I think it is better done by the repeated throw of a die.

Really. Try to think of numbers, integers, between one and six inclusive, and try to make it random. Your will is free; you choose to freely come up with random numbers. Can you?

-----

What is not random?

In our world we have the perfect examples, lotsalotsalotsa them, that show that things happen because they were caused to happen.

If you ask a mathematician, to tell you of a set of integers between one and six inclusive that you show him or her, whether that set was produced randomly or according to a formula, he or she will be stumped. Any finite set of random numbers can be shown to be the results of a function. There is no test for randomness, and order can be found for any sequence.

In our world the logical conclusion of past events is our present, which will further produce logically ensuing events in the future.

But it can be shown that the events could happen without any reason or logic applied; events, completely randomly, can ensue following prior events, without any connection, and that logic and expectability and order and laws etc. are all mirages.

Therefore it is completely possible and highly likely that we live in an completely randomly happening universe that has the feature of appearing as a logical, lawful system, but for some random fact of doing it only for the last 6 billion years, or 37 billion, however old the universe is, but at other times the randomness in the universe will produce completely random events. It's like in a completely good random number generation there is always the chance that two trillion-billion-tercillion nines will show up in a row, and of course it will give the impression that it's ordered, that set, since every part of it is a "9". But it's a mirage, since the other parts (before and after this segment of nines was generated) may be more to how we imagine and see justified a set of random numbers.

Free will: If things are truly random, will will not exist. Will is a complex structure and in a completely unordered world no structures can exist, they can only appear to exist.

Free will: If things are not at all random, then "free", meaning "unrestricted" is an impossible concept. Everything has a cause; every cause has an origin that caused it. Since events therefore only occur in that world due to a cause, and since a causal relationship between events does not allow for unrestricted causality, we must agree that in a completely causal universe free will does not exist, and randomness is only an appearance for those observers who do not recognize the relationship between caused events. (The relationships between the origins and the resultants.)

Free will: If a world can demonstrate that it is partly governed by laws and partly by things that don't obey those laws and some things can cause unrestricted disregard of laws, then yes, randomness and free will can co-exist with law and order. (Physical law, not policed political order.)

One must be careful in accepting that such a mixed universe can exist. If free will can randomly enter the system and make events disobey physical laws, then one must ask, what is the nature of the thing that creates the forces of unrestriction? Who and why would want to do that? And if there is a "want", then there is a "will". Therefore to be able to remove the "will", one must remove the "want", and the only way left for unrestrictions (free events or forces that cause free events) to be generated is for them to create themselves, each its own self.

Nothing can create its own self.

Therefore I move that in a universe which operates on both caused and unrestricted forces, the unrestricted part is an illusion, since it must be able to generate itself each time it occurs, and that is not possible in any system.

Therefore there is no such thing as a free will, whether the universe is completely organized, causal, or completely disorganized and uncaused. The third possibility (mixed caused and unrestrictedly originated events) and the fourth possibility (nothing exists) are shown to be impossible -- the third, as shown above, the foruth, by Descartes' "cogito ergo sum".

The question of "free will" is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise "control over their actions" and "decisions".
Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between "freedom and cause", and "determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic".

What everyone has said is wonderful, I have so enjoyed reading it.. it was my Free Will to take the time an educate myself on this subject.

Because i raise children I see it in a different light!

If i watch a Infant, the infants free will is not there, for it is the mother's choice to decide when the child, eats, drinks and sleeps, even when the infant is crying, the mother dose not understand fully what her child's needs are.....

If i watch a toddler, The Toddler, makes many decisions for themselves and also for others,.. This is my toy as they walk up and take it out of a child's hands but not understanding that the child will start crying if they do this. OR if they do not get the toy they want they will turn around and BITE!...??? but again, not understanding? What the cause and affect will be on the outcome

If i take a child 3-5 again? most can not understand the choices they will make they are programed, in a routine of what to do every day!. Thy know only what the parent teaches them, what the TV shows them, what the Radio tells them, and what others in society dose as they watch the out come and try's the same thing and yet gets there butts whipped for doing it... NOT.. free will....

Now when you take a 6 to 9yr old.. thy have understanding, they have the ability to recolonize right from wrong. but even at this age they only go on what there parents tell them, or the teachers? again TV and the Radio? Family members are now staring to become important and opinions are formed! but again.. NO Free will!

10 to 17yr old... OK... We only think thy are capable to make a decision, take care of themselves and know right from wrong.. but are they just doing this because we have disciplined them and threaten them, are they doing this because..... there friends do it.... so they want to look cool and not be judge by there piers... in school..??? is this Free will... NO>>>>>>>> it is however... adolescents....... time to show off.. time to do what others do!

18yr old to ????? lets take 25yrs old.. Free will or just learning what life is about, trial and error...??? could it be Free will???

example. I got a job? Free will they chose to get this job
I got a car, again, Choices...

So is Choices Free Will, YES>.. Did God make us get the car... NO.. did God have us planed as a child before we were ever born he new that we were going to buy that red Chevy.... NO>>>>> What God did do for us is this... HE allowed us to LIVE>>>> on this earth, He allowed us to learn from are parents, or family, or strangers. ect.. long list... to chose to want.... that red Chevy, We chose after talking to people and watching the tv and radio that this red chevy would be the best car for us.... Did God create the Red chey...

NOPE>>>> but he did do one thing... he put the Idea out in the world so someone would create the motor vehicle so one day we all could drive cars... Because God created Man who has a mind. We are able to chose what we want out of life, Regardless if it is a simple things as : I want a yellow flower, or I want to pick a yellow flower and for some, I am going to grow yellow flowers.

For women Free will is if we want to be married, if we want to have a family, If we want to work and have a career.

For men Free will is if we want to be married, if we want to have a family, if we want to work and have a career...

But it is not God at anytime that Choose this for us...

If today I chose to shut down my childcare center and start a relationship with a person on this site... Did God have me do this??? did god bring me the person so i can start a relationship with them, did god make it possible that i would not have to worry about my career, or money or my children well being.

the answer is this?.... How much faith dose one have! if you believe or said yes to this.. then you believe that God is everything! in the world.

If you said no! then you believe you have Free will over what you chose to do with your life.

How simple is that...

Gee Men are so COMPLICATED.... LOL.... HAA HAA HAA..

i have freewill, to be the best mother i can for my kids and if that means I will be alone by myself because no one wants to help me in my life journey then it is my choice that i chose to be alone, not Gods.... He gave me the chance to love, but i chose my kids over my husband. I felt my kids future was more important then being homeless all the time and being selfish.

Free will is for everyone!

God knows all possible outcomes

Good one..

Ok OUTCOMES>>>>>>>

The man and women were born, God did that a child was born, God created this, The man and women divorced, Ok God not happy but it happened, The child grows up unhappy, God understands this! even new it was going to happen...

the Father re marries and the mother dose not, OK God knows? The grows up to be a ??? Singer Ok God set this in place new it was going to be the out come.

The Father dies of lung cancer! again God Knows this.
The mother has a broken heart and dies shortly after...
The child is left alone....

Now if it was Gods choice and he new this was all going to happen, then were was the "Free Will" in any of this.

THE FREE WILL WAS THE 'DIVORCE'.. it set the path it broke the bond and the marriage.

If the man and women did not divorce what is to say that either of them would have survived? Nothing but Faith that they would have lived a long and happy life. and how did it affect the child what would her life have been life if the Free will was never implicated?

Would she still of been a singer?? only God has that answer?

so to say "free will" is a choice, or a action "Random choice is not done by will". or "Is that choice where there is no conditions placed on the choice"!

We have to think then of this.

God has a destiny for everyone in the world, all humans, and creatures in the sea and on land / sky! We make no decisions because he dose it all for us.? Then we have no Free will at all because we are in the image of God and that would mean one thing.??

God has freewill over us! He makes us believe we have freewill by saying we are in the image of God! and when he gave his only son to us and his son died for us giving us the CHOICE TO BE GOOD OR BAD that became the freewill...

Freewill.. is for two things... Decisions! We as humans have a mind to decide regardless of God what we want out of are life, we can change it at anytime, place or notion! We can do what ever we want to do on this earth and if God dose not like it he takes us!

So Free will will and always has been Gods choice! NOT yours or mine!

instead of the old saying..."THE DEVIAL MADE ME DO IT".... it should have been.. "God set forth and Told me to do it! So i did it!"

hope that was not too deep for you all..... Pastor Julie

P.s. I never spell the devials name right i will never give him power over me! LOL Mankind dose that enough!