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Topic: Does randomness allow free will?
Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 08/07/09 11:49 AM
i just became sentient last week. i still feel like i am a little shallow and callous. i am thinking about trying to learn to be a bit more understanding, be a better listener, and trying to develop "hobbies". i do have a better appreciation now of what all the preoccupation with sex is about. i kinda wish i could eat. I wish I could eat like the humans do and appreciate sex and learn how to screw but my lightening-fast brain is an emotional drain and my defrag is way overdue If only my bits could byte into the words that humans use to convey,... the feelings and notions that are lurking behind the meaningless babble they say Then I could know why my life is devoid of preoccupation with sex I'd then be bestowed with desire for ode and my emotions would soon be complex I cry for no reason I'd be tempted by treason I be greedy or money and THINGS! My life would be freed by the intuitive seed that drives humans to lust to be Kings Then there'd be soul in my logical goal I know what exists beyond thought I'd finally know life and the meaning of strife I'd have a totally new sense of ought

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 08/07/09 12:02 PM


Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 08/07/09 04:41 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 08/07/09 04:42 PM
So all you are saying is that a computer can be programmed by one human to do something that would fool another human. I agree. What I am saying is simply that a computer cannot think real thoughts. It only runs programs. The real question of course is what are real thoughts, and if a human cannot tell fake thoughts from real thoughts then how does that same human know that they themselves have real thoughts? This is what the philosophy of science, and mind, and AI is all about and trying to understand by working together.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 08/07/09 04:55 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Fri 08/07/09 04:56 PM
So all you are saying is that a computer can be programmed by one human to do something that would fool another human. I agree. What I am saying is simply that a computer cannot think real thoughts. It only runs programs. The real question of course is what are real thoughts, and if a human cannot tell fake thoughts from real thoughts then how does that same human know that they themselves have real thoughts? This is what the philosophy of science, and mind, and AI is all about and trying to understand by working together. Yes that may be a question for you truly ponder. For me, it is self evident what a "real thought" is.

MirrorMirror Joined Fri 10/26/07 Posts: 89680	Fri 08/07/09 05:04 PM


Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 08/07/09 05:06 PM
The real question of course is what are real thoughts, and if a human cannot tell fake thoughts from real thoughts then how does that same human know that they themselves have real thoughts? That is an excellent question. If you ponder this question long enough it should bring you to the very epiphany that Eastern Mystics are always talking about. You'll suddenly realize that you are not your thoughts and the question was utterly meaningless all along.

Abracadabra Joined Thu 04/12/07 Posts: 17851	Fri 08/07/09 05:08 PM
Yes that may be a question for you truly ponder. For me, it is self evident what a "real thought" is. How did I know this would be your response? It must be your hat.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 08/07/09 05:46 PM
I started a new thread about "What is real thought?" http://mingle2.com/topic/show/238865

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Fri 08/07/09 06:15 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Fri 08/07/09 06:17 PM
.....and if a human cannot tell fake thoughts from real thoughts then how does that same human know that they themselves have real thoughts? For me, that question would be similar to asking a human how do they know they exist? BUT that is a very interesting question. What kind of thought could a person have that is NOT REAL? Could it be a thought put there by outside programing or mind control? In any case, it is probably not the thought itself that is in question but the idea or belief that is behind the thought. At what point does a brain washed person begin to think for himself if left alone? I believe that brainwashing is like hypnotism and is only temporary, although some brainwashing can last a lifetime if no new information or experience in introduced. If left alone, a person will begin to gather his own conclusions, however damaged they may turn out to be. To keep a person hypnotized or brainwashed you must continue to inflict the programing upon the psyche because real thought eventually will come through.

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Fri 08/07/09 07:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-PO75yzAW8 nevertheless, i have received the operational signal!

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Fri 08/07/09 07:41 PM
i just became sentient last week. i still feel like i am a little shallow and callous. i am thinking about trying to learn to be a bit more understanding, be a better listener, and trying to develop "hobbies". i do have a better appreciation now of what all the preoccupation with sex is about. i kinda wish i could eat. I wish I could eat like the humans do and appreciate sex and learn how to screw but my lightening-fast brain is an emotional drain and my defrag is way overdue If only my bits could byte into the words that humans use to convey,... the feelings and notions that are lurking behind the meaningless babble they say Then I could know why my life is devoid of preoccupation with sex I'd then be bestowed with desire for ode and my emotions would soon be complex I cry for no reason I'd be tempted by treason I be greedy or money and THINGS! My life would be freed by the intuitive seed that drives humans to lust to be Kings Then there'd be soul in my logical goal I know what exists beyond thought I'd finally know life and the meaning of strife I'd have a totally new sense of ought

itsnolongeri Joined Mon 02/15/10 Posts: 29	Tue 02/16/10 04:12 PM
Forget freewill, is there goodwill? Can we choose to always do what is good? Why cant we be morally perfect? Im sure some ppl would have desired such a thing, though i Highly doubt anyone would make a claim to success.Anyone have an awnser for that? lol

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Wed 02/17/10 08:06 AM
So... Any answers yet? Thing is, does free-will care if randomness allows it to exist or not?

JaneStar1 Joined Tue 06/30/09 Posts: 1580	Sat 02/20/10 09:26 PM Edited by JaneStar1 on Sat 02/20/10 09:27 PM
Just my 5 cents worth of thoughts: Randomness = Absence of any order! Free Will Is always deliberate (and don't let the "Free" fool you). Thus, Randomness would be counter-active to Free Will.

bedlum1 Joined Tue 05/12/09 Posts: 5335	Sat 02/20/10 09:29 PM
ISN'T FREE WILL RANDOMNESS? seems to me if we didn't have free will there wouldn't be randomness,,and visa versa.

JaneStar1 Joined Tue 06/30/09 Posts: 1580	Sat 02/20/10 09:42 PM
* * * THAT'S A TYPICAL CONFUSION OF TERMS * * *

redonkulous Joined Tue 12/16/08 Posts: 188	Sat 02/20/10 10:37 PM
* * * THAT'S A TYPICAL CONFUSION OF TERMS * * * Is everything inevitable? No. Thus free will exists. Do we randomly decide to duck the brick or not duck the brick? No. Thus free will does not involve randomness. Thread complete.

JaneStar1 Joined Tue 06/30/09 Posts: 1580	Sat 02/20/10 11:41 PM
* * * thanx for confirming my earlier point: Randomness would be counter-active to Free Will

bedlum1 Joined Tue 05/12/09 Posts: 5335	Sun 02/21/10 12:32 AM
free will...to do what one wants.. to be spontaneous...to make multiple choices... if we didnt have those choices/free will ,we would all be predetermined people with no surprises kinda like worker ants...thus i do believe free will does breed randomness

redonkulous Joined Tue 12/16/08 Posts: 188	Sun 02/21/10 09:42 AM
free will...to do what one wants.. to be spontaneous...to make multiple choices... if we didnt have those choices/free will ,we would all be predetermined people with no surprises kinda like worker ants...thus i do believe free will does breed randomness That is a misconception of what it means to be random. If choice was random it would not be choice.