Well said, Red.

Agree with your description of the VN days. I remember them all too
well, and still see the effects around me every day.

My comments, if you check back, are specifically with regard to
returning troops. These, in my opinion, deserve the truth -- and they
are demanding it.

With regard to those going to Iraq, I am mindful of Fanta's thoughtful
and well-expressed concern. There is more to be said here, but this may
not be the place to say it....

You are right on: "This is not supporting the government, it is about
supporting our warriors, they have made a pact with us, in exchange for
their lives, we promise them the causes will be worthy."

Clearly, Iraq is everything except worthy. And in this way we have let
our troops down and continue to do so. It doesn't matter that they have
been indoctrinated and believe in the 'cause,' what matters is that the
background to the war and its ill-advised reasons and the deceptive
motives behind it are now well understood (I just picked up George
Tenet's book last night and expect that there will be a lot of
supporting information there). I brief government officials on all of
this and there is now little dispute about how ill-conceived the whole
things is.

I would also distinguish between the plight of our troops over there and
the sad roles the senior brass have played in all this. The Joint Chiefs
of Staff in particular were composed of men who simply didn't have the
backbone to tell the President and the neocons that they were flat-out
wrong. They plead innocent now by saying that they were simply obeying
the Commander in Chief/President, and that he, Rumsfeld, Cheney and
Wolfowitz made it clear that they didn't want to hear any disagreement.
But an increasing number of senior military are now admitting quietly
and behind the scenes, that they let the country down, in your words,
they failed to protect their troops (and the country) by resisting an
unworthy cause.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Red, and thank you for casting
this most difficult subject into a framework through which we can
effectively consider it.

Oceans

had a comment referring to the comment, ...it doesnt matter what the
indoctrined think.....paraphrased.

no arm chair general ever lost a war, or for that matter, never been in
a war!

you dont agree with it, fine, thats your opinion. NOT FACT.
I have excepted that you dont agree with the position on the war....you
have yet to except others opinions on this war, now if i stated- that
matter of factly all things about this war you disagree with are wrong,
how do you think that would make me seem.

WE all have are opinions.... i dont believe any of us are exactly right
or exactly wrong, so the more we sound like we are the authority, the
more we seem like we are in fact bias neocons in our own right.

What a wonderful post red!

You know my opinion may be different from others but i stand and SALUTE
EVERY SOLDIER who is defending my country against all enemys foreign and
domestic. People may not agree with the orders these soldiers are given
but I DO.
Terrorism isnt just a threat to america but to other innocent people
around the world. What kind of country would we be if all the brave men
and women serving everywhere didnt defend the rights and freedom of
others, not because they are americans but because they are human
beings?
Maybe all i can do is have the courage to stand up and SPEAK for the
deep appreciation I hold for these brave soldiers and SUPPORT them for
what they are doing. Defending our country and the life of ALL.
Sometimes we have to remind ourselves of what this country stands for;
life, liberty and justice for all and to maintain those rights by
putting a stop to terrorism not only in our back yard but our neighbors
back yard too. I will continue to support every man AND woman serving in
this war because i know for now i am safe as an American. I love my
family, my friends and my country. God bless every single soldier out
there.

First, you must realize redy, as all soldiers do. That the first thing
the military does in basic training is remove all thoughts of
individuality. It doesnt work when a company of 120 individuals try to
fight as a team when they function as 120 individual personalities.
I remember after pushing us constantly one soldier asked the DI when we
could sleep. The DI's response was, Sleep is a habit your momma got you
into. When she got tired of ****ing with you she put you to sleep. I
like to **** with you and you may never sleep. Point is,, They break you
down and humiliate you, they call you maggot and scum, and even talk bad
about your mother,. They tell you things like, The Army didnt issue you
a wife and kids, so that is not an excuse for anything. They do this so
they can break you down to nothing and then rebuild you to their
specifications. Individuals seize to exist and 120 men become one.
Theirs, you eat when they tell you you sleep when they let you you are a
GI (government Issue)
You do not function or follow your parents up bringing your ass belongs
to Uncle Sam and you think what he tells you to think. At least that is
how it was in the day..Civilians can not understand, and they never will
until the day some crazy ass SOB jumps on a bus and tells them they have
30 sec to fall in with their gear, and 15 of those 30 sec are already
gone.

Sorry I went into all that, but when I read stuff like this. Redy said,

It is a much more worthy effort to support 'their' reasons for going,
'their' reasons for returning there again, and 'their' efforts, to make
a difference in any situation they encounter.

In the end what they, our troops, provide, will not be only what this
government sent them to do. In the end, it will be what each individual
conscience dictates, that will make a difference. They do not go
willingly to fight a war, they go willingly to fight for peace.

They are there for one reason, to engage and kill the enemy.
They are there because their commander and chief sent them there.
They will do their job, and American Soldiers are the best most highly
trained soldiers in the world. They will do their job efficiently and
quite well.
I support them and I believe for the above reasons and because they are
my brothers that I have a patriotic duty to fight against this screwed
war and bring those men home.

soldiers close in and engage the enemy with one intent. wooohoo.

because i agreed with the war before coming back in, i dont think you
can say that i was indoctrined or brainwashed into thinking it was a
just cause. i have my reasos, and i believe that we should keep going.
fighting terorist tere is better than fighting them here in the states-
i know that pisses them off they would much rather fight us here, dont
worry, i wont let them. support the war, or support the troops it doesnt
matter to me. i will continue to fight for those who cant fight for
themselves, or WONT!

i really wish we could move on tho, cause this horse got beat to death a
long time ago. no one really cares, except for the weak minded nintendo
everybodys a victim get in touch with your feelings crowd.

okay well maybe that was a bit harsh.

just tired of all the talk, not only are politicians using ts (and in
turn using soldiers) as tools for gaining votes, which really is poor
judgement or use of ethics, but we also have to hear about it all the
time from you people... now i know, if i dont want to hear about it,
then stop rading the post. but sometimes when i do that i see, all kinds
of intentional misguidings and out right lies about the war and the
reasons we went there in the first place. get over it already damn.


doc

National Intelligence Estimates are released periodically by the US
intelligence community to address key US policy questions and provide
the best information and judgment possible to government
decision-makers.

In April, 2006 and NIE was completed covering the "War on Terror" and
the US occupation of Iraq. Portions of it were publically released in
September, 2006. I will refer only to the portions that were publically
released.

The NIE found that the US occupation of Iraq has created a GREATER
threat of terrorism to the US.

The 30-page NIE explains that the war in Iraq has become the number one
reason for the emergence of a new generation of potential anti-US
terrorists around the world, and that the threat is now increasing at a
faster rate than the US can reduce it.

Oceans

i am really glad that you said "potential"

there are many things that could make the potential a reality, it is
mostly contingent on the success or failure of our actions in iraq,
which in turn is contingent by the surrounding countries ability or
unwillingness to stem the aid for the al qaeda types and their weapons
from entering into the equation.

yes there are other hush hush things going on at levels we dont even
know about, i would be shocked if there wasnt, but does that mean the
possibilities of more danger to US soil will come to furition, not in
and of itsself, no.

but one doesnt have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

you have shown your true colours............no doctor there.
a conscripted medic ...no ethics from what i can see or morals. just
perfect for the American Army or any army for that matter...


as for whether i treat the enemy...have always.in fact sewed up 4 of
them while they raped my sister and my cousins in the next room...

i was in Lebanon last August for the 9day slaughter israel wrought on my
people..i was in all of it .


i will now with no respect for you or your army...leave this
thread...and promise never to post to your subjects or statements....

so if you ever think i am addressing you it is an illusion.

good luck Fanta

Oceans!!! you rock!
but it is wasted energy...this one's terminal



i wouldn't mind cleaning the erasers tho!!

i really want to say thanks for the real and informative reporting done
here by Oceans and Fanta.....it is a complicated intrigue...and that you
are willing to shed light even where it is impossible to shine i find
really a comfort!!

o yea and army?
watch your back whoever you are....i can't call you doc.



alex

actually last august in Lebanon i treated more of the 'enemy ' than i
did of my own .....3 weeks of murder and warcrimes...last i checked
america funded that whole endeavour...and the whole country is against
their PM over it. warcrimes and war criminals.....all of ya

sheesh...just woke up sorry for the ranting...not 'all of ya'


and the reason i don't get into it is a life choice...i need to put my
best and most constructive energy in my life...not in here. and i could
spend hours posting but i am pretty sure it's still just wasted energy.

i used to be much more 'in your face' with all the facts and all the
reasons and live unplugged , i give lectures and organize a huge project
for the Palestinian Crisis...personally.

i run a safe house , actually 3 of them 2 in Lebanon and 1 in Gaza

not to mention...or should i...naaaaaa...i'll leave it.

see the diff with me is that i am busy with it all and have been since
the war broke in 1975...so i can't stomach the blah blah blah with
people that are too closed minded and as Fanta accurately re- pointed
out....brainwashed.

I treat PTSD , trauma, bones and head trauma esp.
more precisely i am a D.O., doctor and surgeon of
osteopathy...neurophysiology is my specialty.....

it seriously triggers my own PTSD to have any conversation with armyD,
so i need to stay away from him or subjects that are tooo toxic for me.

i have watched myself to see what sets me off ....Lebanon. so go to it
gentlemen...

i am out to play with some bones...lol

box on reguardless Oh
Alex you just made me i wish every one had a as good as
yours fred

Fanta, I've been wanting to get back to one of your earlier posts... the
one that starts: "First, you must realize redy, as all soldiers do.
That the first thing the military does in basic training is remove all
thoughts of individuality. It doesnt work when a company of 120
individuals try to fight as a team when they function as 120 individual
personalities."

My question is about the Uniform Code of Military Justice. As I
understand it, it is applicable to all members of the US military, and
taught to each incoming member of the military. Among other things, it
asserts that engaging in torture is prohibited, and it instructs members
of the military to refuse to carry out illegal orders.

Does the UCMJ then not counter the important argument you make that
members of the US military are indoctrinated to blindly obey any order
given to them? Does the 'blind obedience' demanded of soldiers on the
one hand and the UCMJ on the other hand not leave soldiers in an
untenable position?

Many thanks for thinking about this question.

Oceans

for some reason this has reminded me of a basic training evening in the
Marines..

We were assembled for a 6 mile run in the sand one evening.....one mile
out and back in a circle for the whole 6..one of the recruits bugged out
and hid in the bushes until the last lap at which time he joined in to
the finish...we were assembled in formation in front of the billet and
the DI's brought this guy out in front and to make an example of
him...he was to watch as we did an hour of push ups & squat thrusts
etc...already sweat covered from the run..we were sweltering by this
time...
then the DI's had us strip naked for another 1/2 hour of the
workout..much of which required rolling around in the sand...and then we
were herded into the barracks on our hands and knees...and we had to
make "baaaaa" noise like sheep while we crawled along..some getting
slapped in the ass with the company flag pole as they crawled by....we
had to shower on our hands and knees...and crawl into bed...all the
while "baaa ing" like sheep..
While this was going on the guy that "bugged" out on the run was allowed
to sit by the DI office door and share a beer with them..

Finally in bed we had to sing the Marine Corps Hymn...and praise the
corps as a good night prayer.."this is my rifle ..this is my gun"...like
that...

As far as boot in the marines the closest rendition I have seen was from
the movie Full Metal Jacket...which I thought was 90% close to truth...

this was quite a shock for a guy just getting stoned a lot just 2 months
prior...

In our company during training we had 2 suicide attempts...and later
after deployment to training had one guy that dressed like a woman for
months trying to get a discharge...they denied his request for a long
time...forcing him to do the wig, mini skirt & knee high boot thing for
at least 6 months before they let him go...

not sure why I'm putting this out here..just fond & bizarre memories...

Many thanks, Alex!

There are no words that can compensate for the reign of terror that has
been visited upon the Lebanese people since the establishment of Israel.

You are one of the moral and selfless people who are trying to soften
the impacts of this terror, and you have put yourself and your life on
the line over many years in doing so.

It is an honor to know you, and an honor to share this space in the
cyber-world with you.

Oceans

I'll bet the guy who bugged out was popular!

Many thanks for this story, DaVinci. Good thing for civilians to hear...

Reading the techniques you and Fanta describe startled me: they reminded
me of some of the aspects of the training given to the Tamil Tigers.

Oceans

.....thanks , Strong words...


with all due respect , please, take me down a few notches...

i have always wondered what would have happened if i had been anywhere
else....are we all such survivors of our circumstances? some people have
the luxury of choosing their path, i have always envied that.

many many people ask me when i will stop, isn't it enough, i am wired
to it, i am a survivor of it but it's prisoner and we both know it,.

so rather than let the demon have the upper hand, i figured ok then , DO
IT. and be in it and use my disadvantage to my advantage.

war does crazy things to people...has done to me as well.

i sometimes feel it is like surfing.... as a set builds up you go thru
alot of adrenalin and if you get out too soon when you stop you just
crash...lactic acid etc...

but if you stay with it and ride until you fully go into a zone...you
are completely relaxed, and in fact quite alert all your expertise
shows up in harmony with the water

the more i do what i do , the less i understand anything

understanding nothing, i have everything to learn

Alex: you are 'only human.'

There, denotched, human.



Oceans

the guy that bugged out was harassed mercilessly during boot...he had
bad
acne and of course was called "pizza face" or something stupid like
that...but he kept doing stupid things also...poor guy..

On the plus side, I've seen a couple of badly messed up kids go into the
military, and come away the better for it. I don't think they ended up
in combat, though, which can be dehumanizing....

And in the days when I was in the corporate world, there were some great
ol sergeants who knew how to organize things, solve problems, and keep
things moving, and some very bright INSCOM guys who could think as well
as anyone and understood people well.

I've had a lot of INSCOM people in my classes, and they are, as a group,
among the best: curious, quick learners, intelligent, experienced, good
senses of humor.

I know, that's Army....

Oceans