This is a little something I saved from a while back...jusr for conversations like this...enjoy:

God vs Science

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good..!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good?

Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er...yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'
Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to face in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. 'Professor, is there such a thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees'

'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.'
'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought'

'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'
'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain - with all due respect, sir.'

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

Why do we use the argument that if God exists there would be no evil in the world?

An Excellent question! Any answers?

People love to take truth out of context. It's where the most believable lies come from.

I like your mind. Good thinking.
I believe people have faith. There is no proof. When we were younger we had faith that there was tooth fairy and a santa clause. People have faith that GOD is real. GOD is based solely on an individuals "spiritual wants". For me I have faith that HE is with me every day, and there is no proof, I just know HE is with me.

I am not going to quote the entire lecture God vs. Science , takes up too much space.
Many things are accepted without each individual experiencing/doing the scientific research themselves.
You simply cannot come to the conclusion that the professor has no brain, or that cold and evil do not exist by the confines of your argument. Rather, actually you can because the argument is faulty.
By the same argument the student has no brain either.
One of the ways science determines the existence of the unknown is by examining effects/results/actions of processes.

There was a thread a few days ago basically saying something along the lines of "There is no God because if there was a God, he wouldn't let puppies suffer."

While I agree with the conclusion, I think the road taken to get to it is way off.

It's just another way of saying "I can only believe in a God whose values are the same as MINE."

If there IS a god, where does it say he has to behave in a manner we find acceptable?

Who are we to impose standards of behavior on God?

If anything, this is human egotism at its finest.

In the O.T. God issues a commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Meanwhile, at various points in the narrative, he's busily wiping out towns and cities and nations and, at one point, pretty much the whole world (the flood), despite his ordinance to the contrary.

I'm not saying that this, per se, invalidates the concept of God. We have plenty of other, better, stuff for that.

I'm just saying that when people talk about "There is no God because he wouldn't permit __________ (fill in the blank)," it's an absurdity because we have no idea what an actual God might or might not value.

We have some words in a book, written by men, many years ago, for the purposes of fulfilling an agenda -- so all we really know is what those men wanted people to believe.

Far easier just to scrap the whole God concept and take some repsonsibility for ourselves.

I couldnt agree more. GOD is not the blame for the bad in the world. WE make our own decisions based on our environment the morals and ethics we were raised with and other factor. At the end we make and live our own lives. I will sound like a broken record... GOD is an individual Spiritual Want.

Sigh, I can tell this is going to be difficult for you to understand, but it is possible for YOU to independently analyze these things without regard to anyone's written appeals.


Answer my questions based on your own beliefs.


Is god all powerful?

Is god all knowing?

Is god benevolent?

I do not, but believers do.

We can use there own premises and then extrapolate from there.

There is no religion in the entire world that does not claim to know the mind of god.

i have to believe in a god. its my own personal preference... and i am not a religious person by any means (just find my other posts lol).

if i truly believed that there wasnt a supreme creator, i would find life a lot more depressing. and this would lead me to believe the entire 'opiate for the masses' deal. but when the previous phrase is used it is usually with disdain or condescension by the speaker, as though opium was only a habbit-forming drug missued by weak-minded humans and not in the medicinal sense whatsoever.

god created drugs... but thats a different argument for a different day.

just because you cant* plug GOD in your TI-83 plus and get a couple y coordinates doesnt mean god doesnt exist. our science is pretty cool but it is far from perfect. every day there are hundreds of species and flora that were rediscovered, previously thought to be extinct. our periodic chart doesnt stop at 115.

most of our intense science is all theory anyway! however, this is not to down-play science at all. science is very important to our evolution (yes, evolution).

there are certain divine patterns and a ratio that can be found in anything related to science, its a mystery. and it will always be a mystery. if god is truly god, then we will never understand or know it.

So you are either unsure if god is benevolent, or you believe he is or is not. There is no other answers available.

Please answer the question. Evasion only hurts your own understanding of these ideas.

Also if god is not benevolent then the bible is wrong.

I wasn't evading God is God whatever he may do is his right to do being the creator of all things.

For the sake of your argument yes God is "Good" and "Good" is God.

dont use human attributes. thats the problem...

Human attributes exist, and we cannot know if these attributes are exclusive to humanity.

However you can also answer the question. Its a question of belief.

Either you believe god is good, or you do not. Its simple. The bible says god is good, what say YOU?
So you are trying to define god, by saying god is god which is circular and expect that to be meaningful?

I think I am starting to see the source of much of your confusion.




This is really easy questions, it amazes me when people are afraid to answer questions of there own beliefs.

Either you think that god existing is a good thing, or not. Either you think what god does for you is good, or do not. Either you think that god cares about you, or you do not.

Its simple.

I myself attribute no personal characteristics to god, no physical characteristics, no emotional characteristics, and no will, no power, no knowledge. Nothing.

You can either play the what you think god is game, or you can go home and ponder your navel in quite. This is either a conversation based on the main topic or its not.

This is the problem I have with theist, they think they want an honest conversation, but they really do not. They just want people to agree with them so they can feel good about that.

i say the bible is quite possibly the most misunderstood book in all of creation.

i also say that i disagree largely with the bible's take on god. much of my thoughts on god are of my own thinking and reflection. philosophy courses too. but i believe in different reals of reality and the notion of 'no guarantees in life, EVER. with this it can be stated that an idea of a supreme creator can be considered 'real' without a physical manifestation, odor, taste, sound, etc etc.

as for benevolence... well... there is a lot of bad **** out there, that would deter me from thinking of god as some all-merciful and forgiving entity. as you could probably tell, i am a large believer in karma and reincarnation.

So your right and millions of people are wrong?

What gives you insight into the characteristics of god that everyone else does not have?

How does each person come to these understandings of the characteristics of god?

What is the positive ontology of god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology

Once that is established this conversation can continue and we can honestly debate the existence of the being characterized in your ontology.

______________________________________________________________

The OP thinks good is god. So is bad not god? Is evil not god? From what perspective is what good that is god?

ooooohhhh no no no no no no no no... the funny thing about faith, is that there is no wrong answer. so christ, i dunno. i probably am wrong, but instead of making a point to 'disprove' ones faith i would rather give insight to my ideas and draw similarities from there. and for my last 'correct answer' i will define religion for you. religion is whatever you make of it and doesnt have to run parallel to any kind of organized religion. the goal of religion, any religion, is to find peace and contentment in your life. so whatever it is you believe in, if it makes you happy then go with it.

... all the right answers and the other millions are all wrong... so sayeth the ardent and cynical 'scientist'

That is solipsism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

I personally do not know any scientists that would claim such a thing.

God is the beginning and the end anything I create belong to him and he would be the creator of that thing and yes he could do anything to that creating and it would be good.

And no I can not fathom what God is entirely. All I know is what he chooses to tell me.

And how is "God is God" not meaningful, it's very simple. God is, was and will be. He is everything. He created us and gave a choice, eternal life or eternal separation from him. As the creator of all things you could do that if you wanted to.

It was said that God is a mean person and was compared to a demon. Why cause he threatens us with fire if we don't choose to follow his rules "sounds like an argument an immature kid would have with an adult, who knows better then the kid). No it simply is what will happen if you don't choose him. As a parent would say "my house my rules" if you don't want to choose his house his rules then the only other place you can go is hell. When you die of course. Those are the outlines.

So yes God is. We can choose to except his will and live in his house or we can choose to not except it and perish in hell. That is what God said and God is good. Get it? God is good and Good is God.


He does not want you to burn and be separated from him.