Topic: Does Gravity exist?
no photo
Fri 03/13/09 06:47 PM

Is this supposed to be a forum for a high school dropouts?

Because, the author of the posted excerpt, apparently didn't go to high school. His explanations fail in so many ways to accurately describe the well known, that I am afraid it requires similar qualification to follow his train of thought.



laugh laugh laugh laugh

As I said, the author is alleged to be extraterrestrial being. (an alien) so no, he probably didn't go to one of our high schools. rofl rofl

davidben1's photo
Fri 03/13/09 11:05 PM
albert einstein, told of the "beginning" of his discoveries, as daydreams, and theories and professed experts, as only limiter's of expanded sight of the human brain.

tesla has no validations from anything for quite some time.

edison was a quack to most for many years.

newton was a reject, until much later, after all had said over and again, no way.

wisdom is only but questioning all that currently exist, and putting all things toegther as one, not discounting ANYTHING.

all things are possible, and nothing is impossible.

skepticism be as ignorance, of self absorption turned into self vanity.

anything new is always despised by what was old.

s1owhand's photo
Fri 03/13/09 11:53 PM
WAIT!! i feel a pull on my leg!! drinker

no photo
Sat 03/14/09 03:25 AM
I think the nature of gravity is NOT what we (science) thinks it is.

That is what I am suggesting.

If you believe gravity exists just because you see its effects and those effects seem to suggest that matter attracts matter and if that makes perfect sense please, would someone explain to me what keeps planets from smashing into the sun?

What keeps them in orbit? Why doesn't the moon fall to the earth? Why does the orbit of the moon keep the face of the moon towards us so we never see the other side? I think there might be something else going on here, and I admit I don't know the current theory about gravity. I am totally ignorant of current accepted explanations of how it works.

Here is what "How stuff works says:"

"Each particle of matter attracts every other particle with a force which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. "

Now my point is this: They have not even proven that a measurable particle of matter even exists. I believe a particle of matter is nothing but a wave. There is no particle.

If there is no particle in the sense of a piece of "matter" then the explanation above for gravity falls completely apart.

Einstein later came along and redefined gravity, so there are now two models -- Newtonian and Einsteinian. Einsteinian gravitational theory has features that allow it to predict the motion of light around very massive objects and several other interesting phenomena.

The general theory of relativity addresses the problem of gravity and that of nonuniform, or accelerated, motion. In one of his famous thought-experiments, Einstein showed that it is not possible to distinguish between an inertial frame of reference in a gravitational field and an accelerated frame of reference. That is, an observer in a closed space capsule who found himself pressing down on his seat could not tell whether he and the capsule were at rest in a gravitational field, or whether he and the capsule were undergoing acceleration. From this principle of equivalence, Einstein moved to a geometric interpretation of gravitation. The presence of mass or concentrated energy causes a local curvature in the space-time continuum. This curvature is such that the inertial paths of bodies are no longer straight lines but some form of curved (orbital) path, and this acceleration is what is called gravitation.

If certain assumptions and simplifications are made, Einstein's equations handle Newtonian gravity as a subset.

The question of why atoms attract one another is still not understood. The goal is to combine gravity, electromagnetism and strong and weak nuclear forces into a single unified theory.



MickyG's photo
Sat 03/14/09 03:30 AM

albert einstein, told of the "beginning" of his discoveries, as daydreams, and theories and professed experts, as only limiter's of expanded sight of the human brain.

tesla has no validations from anything for quite some time.

edison was a quack to most for many years.

newton was a reject, until much later, after all had said over and again, no way.

wisdom is only but questioning all that currently exist, and putting all things toegther as one, not discounting ANYTHING.

all things are possible, and nothing is impossible.

skepticism be as ignorance, of self absorption turned into self vanity.

anything new is always despised by what was old.


Hmm may actually have posted a good point for those who have a clue, I would agree to some extent!

splendidlife's photo
Sat 03/14/09 07:39 AM
Edited by splendidlife on Sat 03/14/09 07:46 AM

Or: Two fat people would be sucked together in the supermarket as they tried to pass each other in the isle.


I'm reminded of a Family Guy Episode. laugh

splendidlife's photo
Sat 03/14/09 07:43 AM
Edited by splendidlife on Sat 03/14/09 07:47 AM
If each human, just as all matter, contributes to the influence of gravity, could we, somehow... at will, be released from it's affects?

SkyHook5652's photo
Sat 03/14/09 09:56 PM
If gravity does not exist, then you have to answer the question "What is it that keeps the planets revolving around the sun?" Why do they follow an elliptical path instead of a straight line?

I don't think there can be any doubt that the planets do follow an elliptical path.

You can call it gravity or you can call it "the affinity of matter" or you can call it blargenfarg. It doesn't matter what you call it.

Whatever you want to call it, it has predictable effects based on the mass and distance of the objects.

And it is our understanding of that predictability that has enabled everything we have done in the space program.


no photo
Sat 03/14/09 11:03 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sat 03/14/09 11:04 PM

If gravity does not exist, then you have to answer the question "What is it that keeps the planets revolving around the sun?" Why do they follow an elliptical path instead of a straight line?

I don't think there can be any doubt that the planets do follow an elliptical path.

You can call it gravity or you can call it "the affinity of matter" or you can call it blargenfarg. It doesn't matter what you call it.

Whatever you want to call it, it has predictable effects based on the mass and distance of the objects.

And it is our understanding of that predictability that has enabled everything we have done in the space program.




Well 'something' certainly exists that holds everything together.

As for the elliptical path instead of a straight line, you can ask the same thing about an atom. What revolves around the center of that and why? It's more than just a force of "matter attracting matter," because when you go smaller and smaller... looking for "matter," you will not find it. Its all just energy.


Drivinmenutz's photo
Sun 03/15/09 11:12 AM
Edited by Drivinmenutz on Sun 03/15/09 11:18 AM
Actually when looking at the concept of gravity, it is in fact directly related to density...

According to Einstein gravity is merely an object of mass creating a sinkhole in the time/space continuum. Kinda like setting a bowling ball on a mattress. If you had smaller objects, lets say, marbles, they would fall towards the heavy bowling ball.

Objects it outerspace are simply held in orbit by a centripetal force generated from their movement. When you see objects in water approach a drain it first circles the drain before getting sucked into it. As the object appears to be moving faster when it approaches, it is in fact traveling over a smaller distance (the orbit was getting smaller, which gives the illusion of increasing it's speed, when in fact it's slowing down, decreasing it's centripetal force. The reason they don't fall comes from Newton's third law. "An object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by an outside force." In outerspace, there is no "drag" so to speak, as it is a vaccuum with no atmosphere. Basically if you or i could throw a basketball into the moon's orbit from ANY distance providing it didn't get sucked into another orbit along the way.

I thought Einstein's explanation was brilliant and very intriguing as it inspires much wonder. For example; When gravity increases, time slows down. As Mirror mentioned, time is related to the speed of light. Supposedly if you reach that lightspeed, time stops. In a black hole gravity is said to be so intense, that light cannot escape. Given this information we could assume that time also comes to a stop. So, if you fell into a black hole would you live forever, or die almost instantly?

Drivinmenutz's photo
Sun 03/15/09 11:13 AM
Edited by Drivinmenutz on Sun 03/15/09 11:18 AM
BTW Jeannie, i enjoy your posts.flowerforyou flowerforyou flowerforyou

Theshortelktonman's photo
Sun 03/15/09 12:36 PM
I know plenty of people who though gravity doesn't exist a lot of them are dead now because they moved faster to the ground then they thought they would, after trying to move to the sky from buildings and mountains and stuff.

no photo
Sun 03/15/09 03:21 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/15/09 03:29 PM
THE PROBLEM WITH GRAVITY:


From a previous post:


Then more than a decade ago a researcher noticed something funny about two Pioneer spacecraft that were streaming toward the edge of the solar system. They weren't where they should have been.

Something was holding the probes back, according to calculations of their paths, speed and how the gravity of all the objects in the solar system — and even a tiny push provided by sunlight — ought to act on them.



Now scientists have proposed a new mission to figure out what's up with gravity.


I wonder if scientists have considered the heliosphere?


Staggering possibilities
Pioneer 10 and 11 launched in 1972 and 1973. Today each is several billion miles away, heading in opposite directions out of the solar system.

The discrepancy caused by the anomaly amounts to about 248,500 miles (400,000 kilometers), or roughly the distance between Earth and the moon. That's how much farther the probes should have traveled in their 34 years, if our understanding of gravity is correct. (The distance figure is an oversimplification of the actual measurements, but more on that in a moment.)

Scientists are quick to suggest the Pioneer anomaly, as they call it, is probably caused by the space probes themselves, perhaps emitting heat or gas. But the possibilities have been tested and modeled and penciled out, and so far they don't add up.

Which leaves open staggering possibilities that would force wholesale reprinting of all physics books:

* Invisible dark matter is tugging at the probes
* Other dimensions create small forces we don't understand
* Gravity works differently than we think

Devoted to the problem
Slava Turyshev at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is one of a handful of scientists who wrestle mentally with the Pioneer anomaly every day. He is not paid to work specifically on the problem, so he has to juggle the disturbing thought with his regular research, which involves other aspects of gravity and, significantly, whether theories that explain the glue of the whole universe might one day match neatly with those describing the invisible, subatomic world.

"I have been working on [the Pioneer anomaly] for more than 11 years now, and was never funded to do this job," Turyshev tells Space.com. "I guess this says a lot about my devotion to solve this mystery."

Data from the Galileo and Ulysses spacecraft suggest the anomaly may have affected them, too. But neither has been far enough from the sun — the dominant source of gravity in the solar system — to firmly distinguish any possible discrepancy from noise in the data, Turyshev says. Galileo was crashed into Jupiter last year, and Ulysses will never go farther than it has.

That leaves two data points — one from each Pioneer craft. Turyshev pointedly considers the pair as one data point, so as not to inflate the case for strange new physics.

NASA engineers have made their last communications with the Pioneer probes, so the two table-sized robots are carrying the unsolved mystery silently to the stars.

New mission proposed
The Pioneer anomaly was discovered by John Anderson, also of JPL, in the 1980s. For years he didn't publish what he'd noticed. Then he discussed it with physicist Michael Martin Nieto at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. Nieto says he "almost fell off my chair."

Nieto jumped into the investigation, and the two were later joined by Turyshev. They dug deeper into the data, even tracking down retired NASA scientists for some of it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6273955/


Plasmas pervade the heliosphere and local interstellar medium. The shape of the heliosphere results from a comet-like interaction with the surrounding plasma (from T. Eastman, IEEE Trans. Plasma Science, 18, 1990, p. 20).

From Wikepedia:
The charted regions of the Solar System comprise the Sun, four terrestrial inner planets, the asteroid belt, four gas giant outer planets, and finally the Kuiper belt and the scattered disc. The hypothetical Oort cloud may also exist at a distance roughly a thousand times beyond these regions.

The solar wind, a flow of plasma from the Sun, permeates the Solar System, creating a bubble in the interstellar medium known as the heliosphere, which extends out to the middle of the scattered disc.




no photo
Sun 03/15/09 03:25 PM

BTW Jeannie, i enjoy your posts.flowerforyou flowerforyou flowerforyou


Thanks Drivinmenutz, its so nice to see you! flowerforyou flowerforyou

no photo
Sun 03/15/09 03:32 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/15/09 03:34 PM
Scientists are quick to suggest the Pioneer anomaly, as they call it, is probably caused by the space probes themselves, perhaps emitting heat or gas. But the possibilities have been tested and modeled and penciled out, and so far they don't add up.

Which leaves open staggering possibilities that would force wholesale reprinting of all physics books:

* Invisible dark matter is tugging at the probes
* Other dimensions create small forces we don't understand
* Gravity works differently than we think



OR how about the idea that the probes were nearing the edge of the heliosphere and that force acted on them in some way? It sounds more feasible than "dark matter tugging at the probes or another dimension creating strange forces we don't understand." That just sounds like someone's a wild shot in the dark guess by someone with no clue.

Just something to consider.




nogames39's photo
Sun 03/15/09 05:36 PM

...According to Einstein gravity is merely an object of mass creating a sinkhole in the time/space continuum. Kinda like setting a bowling ball on a mattress. If you had smaller objects, lets say, marbles, they would fall towards the heavy bowling ball...


A very bad analogy. Observe, when you place a bowling ball on a mattress, it does sink in, creating somewhat a funnel. Now, you place smaller balls nearby, and they roll in circles, approaching the bigger ball. However, all this is happening because the mattress is positioned normally to a gradient of gravitational field. So, this analogy, is attempting to explain the gravitation by presuming the effects of that same force apriori?

Isn't it a bit like explaining to a boy how a bicycle tire works by saying "When you push here, the bicycle pump works, and there you have it!"?

Drivinmenutz's photo
Mon 03/16/09 02:28 PM


...According to Einstein gravity is merely an object of mass creating a sinkhole in the time/space continuum. Kinda like setting a bowling ball on a mattress. If you had smaller objects, lets say, marbles, they would fall towards the heavy bowling ball...


A very bad analogy. Observe, when you place a bowling ball on a mattress, it does sink in, creating somewhat a funnel. Now, you place smaller balls nearby, and they roll in circles, approaching the bigger ball. However, all this is happening because the mattress is positioned normally to a gradient of gravitational field. So, this analogy, is attempting to explain the gravitation by presuming the effects of that same force apriori?

Isn't it a bit like explaining to a boy how a bicycle tire works by saying "When you push here, the bicycle pump works, and there you have it!"?


Sorry i over-simplified this...

Just trying to create a 3-d visual to explain a supposed 6-d concept (somthing like that).

A bend, or funnel, or whatever, in space and time is a bit difficult for myself to describe having not taken theoretical physics...

carebear19622's photo
Mon 03/16/09 02:55 PM
this topic is too heavy for me

no photo
Mon 03/16/09 03:53 PM
Gravity is a weak fundamental force (in our dimention anyway) of about 6.7x10^-11Nm^2/kg^2.
So it isn't going to instantly make every bit of matter attract it to every other. I mean a house can stand against gravity, a strong enough gust of wind can blow it down.

no photo
Mon 03/16/09 09:38 PM

Gravity is a weak fundamental force (in our dimention anyway) of about 6.7x10^-11Nm^2/kg^2.
So it isn't going to instantly make every bit of matter attract it to every other. I mean a house can stand against gravity, a strong enough gust of wind can blow it down.



Apparently so can the big bad wolf. laugh