adj4u wrote”
“kinda sums up why some feel the way they do
about organised religion”

It’s true that there are a lot of hypocrites and con artists hiding
behind religion. But I don’t blame religions for the acts of those
yo-yos.

My problem with certain religions is that they paint an external picture
of a completely separate Santa Claus-like entity in the sky. To me
that’s totally misleading to the true nature of god no matter who might
how sincerely it might be preached. Also the very idea that all men
are born into sin, and that salvation is the key to being close to God
is just totally sickening to me. That’s a totally wrong image of god.
God simply isn’t that petty.

From my point of view that whole attitude (including the heavily male
chauvinistic views in the dogma) were written by men who were interested
in controlling people by making them feel guilty and inferior.

I mean, there’s a perfectly rational reason why men would make up such
stories. But why would a god be chauvinistic? Why would a god be
obsessed with sin and salvation to the point of making that focal point
of his message? I mean, at best it should have been an aside, to a much
greater and more positive message.

The whole story the whole way though is extremely egocentric focused in
the salvation of individuals. There’s no message at all offered for
mankind as a whole other than to just get along and not fight. The
whole thing is basically aimed at individual salvation. It’s an
extremely egocentric religion.

Seems to me that if god had a message for mankind it would have been a
little more profound than merely a message to save their own souls
individually. I just can’t imagine god being that petty. And this is
why I’m totally convinced that the whole story was written by men as an
attempt to control the masses. It fits that scenario PERFECTLY!

I would like to go one further Abra, to stretch these thoughts of yours
a little further..

When looking at the basic messages, teachings and interpretations of the
bible and the ten commandments...I see screaming hypocisy over and
over..

The defenders of their whole faith, 'the sunday worship, bible study,
christians', are the same ones, for all appearance sake, screaming from
the rooftops, that if someone threatened them in anyway they would blow
the perps brains out.

That their fellow men, women, and children of other nations, can suffer
in silence, thankyou, because we have a bible to hide behind, which
makes us the righteous ones.. as long as we personally don't have to get
our hands dirty..

Those same 'tithing on a sunday/ christian crowd, drive past the
homeless ones shivering in doorways and back alleys, in some of the
worst winter conditions for a long time, that turn battered women and
their children from shelters for being the wrong denomination...not the
christians' problems.

What happened to loving thy fellow man?

here Lee!

Mon 04/30/07 01:10 AM
Scttrbrain wrote:
“I did not find my God through church. I found God in my life, or lack
of. HIS presense was shown to me through healing and a changed life,
mind and heart.”

Well, if this is true, then how and why did you become affiliated with
the Christian religion?===

Abra, I was not a church attending person when I found God, or HE made
HIS presense known to me.
I was brought back from death by prayer, when all else failed. There are
things that happened during that time of unconscious and comatose state
that I will not even try and post. I know, HE knows, and others know.
Not to mention the countless other things,and times that have come to
light since then.

I didn't set foot in a church until many many years later. I still do
not go religiously. I seldom make it there. I do not claim an affilation
to a particular religion. I am not about organized religion. Not to say
that it is wrong for others, it just isn't something I agree with at
this time. To me it is too commercialized and controlled by money,
church laws, and is too much about being a business.


Scttrbrain wrote:
“Your words are strong, and can be harmful to someone seeking some kind
of guidance.”

I beg your pardon, but anyone who genuinely understands what I am saying
will most certainly not be harmed. On the contrary they will come to
know god directly without any need to drag any religions into that
relationship.

Abra, a person that is floating and tetering as what to believe in and
wants answers, could read you and take your words as truth. Your
writings are good and convincing. To someone weaker and not sure of
themselves, this could seem so to them.

You said someone that understands you...yes, that is what I am talking
about. If I had, had you to listen too when I was in doubt, or indeed a
disbeliever. You could have swayed me totally, to your way of thinking.
You are a good man. I do not believe you to be attacking. But, it (
seems) that you are trying to attempt to change minds. We all have our
own truths. We try and convey them the best way we know how.

I do hope I don't sound mad or upsetting to you. It is not my intention
here. If I have, I apologize. I adore you and your mannerisisms.
I am sure of myself, my God, and my beliefs. For that reason; my heart
has room enough for many, and much.

Your friend,
kat

I see where it has been mentioned of the "church people" go to church
and pass by the homeless ones. That lump statement just isn't true.
People helping others has always been kinda selfish, through all time.
There are many more people now, and it isn't the "religious" ones that
made this happen. It isn't the churh goers that have faultered here. It
is "a people", plain and simple. I have seen more and more compassion
coming from home and around the world than has ever been done before.
Church or otherwise.

To lump all people that believe in God and maybe attend church, as all
bad and not caring about others is just wrong. I, and many care, and do
what we can to help others. That puts me in that crowd. The Church has
opened up and helps people all over the world now. They send money,
people and things that are needed to help others. They send food, they
help build houses to dwell in. That is what tithing is all about. It
pays the preacher, pays the bills, and gives finance to help around the
world and at home. Churches send food, medicals and clothing and shelter
and comforts to those in need. At least as many as it can afford too.

I know that the church that I call my home church keeps open books for
all to see and have reference to at all times. We can see where the
money is spent and who it goes to. Churches fund other churches and
travels abroad to bring the Word to those that seek it. Our church
supports the orphans and children without parents caused by 9/11. To the
tune of 80,000 dollars a year! We support the food banks and teach our
members what it is like to live out of a cardboard box. We have a toy
drive and clothing drive for those kids every year, and the preacher
that oversees them comes here and takes it back. We are privy to see the
results of our gifts and hear it.

Running a church is not cheap. The money has to come from somewhere. My
church for instance: sets up once a year and has dentists and Drs. and
food trucks and clothing vouchers and medicines and personal hygeine
products as well as transportation there and back. ALL FREE! All one has
to do is, go there. Not to the church, but the specified location. They
do not make you attend the church to gain.

So, to say that church is not a good and helpful to those in need all
together, is just wrong. I am aware that small churches have financial
problems, and that not all churches do as much. But some try and do
right.

Kat

Kat wrote:
“I do hope I don't sound mad or upsetting to you.”

Oh no, not at all. I know you better than that Kat. You are a totally
compassionate person.

Kat wrote:
“Abra, a person that is floating and tetering as what to believe in and
wants answers, could read you and take your words as truth. Your
writings are good and convincing. To someone weaker and not sure of
themselves, this could seem so to them.”

Well, I hope they do take them as truth. However, I hope that they also
have read all of my posts, and that they don’t get too distracted by the
unnecessary personal attacks that detract from the topics.

I would be very happy to know that I was able to lead someone to a
spiritual enlightenment that is not based on guilt-ridden salvation, and
that would end with in them having an understanding that they are
directly related to every other living thing in the universe.

I will grant you though that I’m not doing a good job of it. However
one of the reasons for this is because of the continual reinforcements
of the Christian philosophy. This thread is a perfect example.

The Ten Commandments of Christianity begin with “Thou Shalt have no
other Gods before me”.

My main point is that you don’t need a religion to know god. So I
feel compelled to point out the fact that Christianity is a religion and
when it says, “Thou Shalt have no other Gods before me”, what it’s
really saying is “Thou Shalt have no other Religions before me”.

I think that’s a very valid point to make. And that was really my only
intent when I first posted to this thread.

Christianity continues to harp that it’s the ONLY way. And when other
people come in and try to point out that this isn’t true, then are made
out like as they are attacking Christianity, when in reality they are
actually just trying to get out from under the thumb of Christianity.

If Christianity didn’t continually harp that it’s the ONLY God and the
ONLY way, then it probably wouldn’t be attacked so much. But that
really is a major part of it’s message.

How can other people avoid that confrontation when Christianity is the
religion that is continually making the claim not to have any other God
before it? It begs to be attacked.

Then when it gets attacked it screams personal insult! How arrogant is
that?

Touche' Abra.

I wish we were closer so I could get in real verse with you. We do, I
think have more in common than we know.

Can you explain what you mean by "one God" or do you mean more than one?
Is your belief that there is no "one God?" or that we can have as many
as it takes?
Kat

Oh, and my late husband Harry; whom I adored, had problems believing in
God. I did not force it on him. We rarely talked one on one about God.
We did however have conversations in meetings with many. Well anyway, he
used a doorknob as his focus point. He said it gave him passage to a new
view. Kinda makes sense to me. He did however come to believe in God
before he died, rather quickly I might add. I have seen this happen more
than once. People beginning to grasp something about believing just
before they died. Is it coincidence?
Kat

Kat,

I was thinking more in terms of one description of god.

In other words, it's my take on Christianity that they use this to mean
that there’s is only one description of God that is valid, and their
description is the correct one.

Although, I think in the Bible, the idea of having only one God actually
meant opposed to having many gods, because back then it was very common
for people to think of multiple gods. The Greeks in particular had
multitude of gods. A god of the sea, a god of the land, a god for
love, a god for war, etc. Many cultures had multiple gods.

I definitely believe that there is only one ‘spiritual’ aspect to the
universe. Therefore, by description, I can only believe in one god.
And of course, because of this I must necessarily discount the Christian
picture of god as simply being incorrect.

What I don’t understand is why my claim that there can only be one
description of god is insulting, whilst it’s not considered to be
insulting for the Christian religion to claim that only their picture of
God is correct.

I mean, it’s ok for the Christian religion to ‘insult’ me, but it’s not
ok for me to ‘insult’ the Christian religion?

This is where people need to realize that when we discuss religions it’s
NOT a personal thing. There’s no intend to personally insult anyone by
claiming that a particular religion’s view of ‘god’ is incorrect. It’s
merely an argument to make a case for a differently picture.

It’s not intended as a personal insult to the people who would like to
believe in that particular religion.

This is what makes discussing religions so difficult on a public forum.

Like you say, these types of discussion are much better suited to
personal conversation among friends who know they have no reason to be
threatened by an opposing views.

Abra, I am not insulted by you or your writings. I still say that we
have more in commomn in our spiritual lives than we know.

Thank you: I have a much better understanding of what you are saying
even more now than before.

Your "one" spiritual force is indeed a good one. It shows in you, to be
kind, wise, and loving, honest and valuable. Your god or my God,
whatever works.

Kat

scttrbrain,


NOW THAT'S THE 'SPIRIT'!!!

Thank you Kat for your kind words and understanding.

Jess wrote:
“I have one commandment in my world...”

"Loving compassion for all beings."
=========================================================

Abracadabra wrote:
There, Jess covered it all in one commandment.

Does that make her the intellectual superior of God?

God had to write out 10 commandments when only 1 was required.
=========================================================

Actually, God taught that message through the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Mark 12:29-31 (NASB)
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS
ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND
WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is
no other commandment greater than these."

Why were there 10 commandments instead of one? To the Jews, there are
613 commandments. The reason is because people who are living under
laws will always try to find loopholes. God gave many explicit
commandments to the Israelites, so that they would know how to live
their lives and he tied up the loop holes. Once you are saved and join
the body of Jesus Christ, you are no longer under the law, the Christian
is under Grace. That means Christians serve God out of love and not
fear. We don't obey laws, we live our lives according to the spirit
(principle) of the law.

Awesome post spider.
Kat

Kat,

I am sorry you read my post as a lumping in of ALL church goers not
doing good, that was not my intent.

What I did say is those same 'tithing on a Sunday worship' PEOPLE, drive
past homeless, the PEOPLE who run shelters under a religious banner make
policies, and turn away battered women and children, there are PEOPLE
who say on the one hand 'I love my god', quotes from the bible, and in
the next breath says 'I own a gun and will blow anyone away who
threatens my world'.

PEOPLE are hypocrites, Churches as with other religions, (and yes, I
understand a Church is an organised group of people) have been shown to
be hypocritical, time and again.

Your faith is yours Kat, you quietly go about your day, doing good for
so many, and there are many, many more like you, that do love their
fellow man.

I was making an observation, in a geralised form, however, I was careful
to separate my observations into some PEOPLE who go to church and
demonstrate less than a 'Christian' way of living.

Sometimes we try to explain basic principles as these with too many
words. Then, those who think that they own the truth come to us, and try
to use other words to make these simple things look worse. These
principles are as simple as 2+2=4. However, for some people even 2+2=4
is hard to understand
God bless them

Hmmm? Today, I will defend Christians, mainly because as usual, people
focus on the letter of the law, not the spirit- and either way they were
starting out of context.

For starters, yes The Ten Commandment have nine more "rules" than you
do, but Jesus summed it up in one as well, "Love others as you Love
yourself." Pretty basic, doesn't seem dogmatic, and I don't see that as
taking anyone away from "experiencing God".

Arguably, any other beliefs could also be taking people away from
Christianity, and thus experiencing God.

Some interesting things I have known when having "emotionally charged"
discussions with Christians, is that the ones that have the strongest
arguments not only take the Bible literally, but focus on the scriptures
within their context. No interpreting, no metaphors, just declarative
statements or descriptions that leave nothing to the imagination. Of the
different versions I've read (I'm also passingly familiar with the
Koran, Torah, Bhuddism general philosophy, Shinto, and others F.Y.I.),
the basic message is the same.

These things are Good.
These things are Bad.
Do the Bad things (murder, lie, kill, etc.), and bad things will happen
(fall out of God's grace, be reborn as an inferior entity, be cosmically
punished by the Statistical God of improbability, etc.)
Do Good things and good things will happen (umm, insert Good Things
here).

The Bible also has nutrition in it, telling you what foods are good and
bad (the same foods and diet that many nutritionists successfully use),
practical advice (obey the laws of mankind, happy people usually do X),
and even scientific and historical information (within the bible their
is scripture that states the world IS round [short sited people missed
that], and don't forget the fairly accurate and verifiable "time-line"
of the scriptures, which has not really come under dispute).

Of course, the problem that some people have with it is the other stuff,
like a long-haired white/black guy turning water into wine, walking on
water, and casting out demons. Oh sure, people hate the Adam and Eve
story, saying "oh, but then we have incestuous ancestors", but if you
read carefully, there WERE other people within the same time period-
otherwise God wouldn't have needed to put that mark on Cain .

So, if you are going to say a religion has contradictions, back it up.
Give examples, quote text, show a mastery of the material.Otherwise, it
is the equivalent of saying that the American Government is full of
contradictions, when you have to realize that all we are doing is
ignoring the Constitution -the bible of the American way.

Lee, you have mail.
Kat

Hey, tomokun...thumbs up.
Kat

ditto kiddo