Sheila wrote:
“Abra, you certainly are free to believe what you wish. I have to
wonder, though, why you are so seemingly angry at God or anything that
has to do with Him?”

I’m not the slightest bit angry at god. You simply confuse religion
with god. I'm angry at religion.

Sheila wrote:
“You act as though you have it ALL figured out...the mystery of the
universe. You act as though you are intellectually superior, not only to
everyone else, but to God as well. You scoff in His face and belittle
everyone and everything having to do with Him.”

Once again you have it all wrong. I don’t scoff at god. I scoff at a
religion that thinks it speaks for god.

My view is simply that the bible depicts an totally illogical and
inconsistent view of god. In my opinion that view necessarily must be
wrong because no god could possibly be that big of a bumbling fool.

Just look at it objectively.

God starts out creating a universe and a man in his own image. This is
apparently God’s ‘plan’.

Then God shows the man all that he created and man names all the
animals. And God says, “So what do you think Adam?”

Adam says, “Well God, it’s pretty cool and everything but I’m really not
very impressed. It’s kind of lonely and boring I think I need some peer
company”.

Then God says, “Hmmm? I never thought about that in my original
drawings. Let me see what I can do here on the fly. Gimmie a rib”.

So then God creates woman as an afterthought. Not as part of his master
plan, but as an obvious afterthought in a design-as-you-fly plan”

Then after he creates the woman all hell breaks loose.

Then he has to send his own begotten son to be nailed to a cross to save
all of humanity from this terrible blunder.

I’m sorry Sheila, but the stories of Greek Mythology make more sense to
me.

So no, I’m angry with god. I just don’t buy into the Biblical
fairytale. To me, god couldn’t possible have been that stupid.

So from my point of view, I’m just trying to help people come out of the
dark ages.

I’m doing a good thing in the name of the real living god which I see as
being this universe.

My god is tangible. No need for ancient myths. Just realize who you
are (this universe) and you’ll automatically come to know the real
living god. No need for religion at all. Religion is an insult to god.

Sheila wrote:
“So, on that note, frankly I'm getting a little bit beyond tired of
hearing you insult people just because they believe in God or follow the
Bible.”

You’re a little beyond tired of hearing my views on religion? Then
don’t read them. I don’t recall twisting your arm.

Imaging how tired I am at hearing the evangelists. Yet I don’t put them
down. I just make better points than they do. They don’t hesitate to
say that many of my ideas are ‘stupid’. Yet you have never heard me
scream personal insult because I don’t take it as a personal insult. I
don’t give them that much power.

I just come back with better points.

Abra, tell me when I'm wrong, but the way I understand you the bible is
like a crutch for somebody who is not able to walk on his own, meaning,
that somebody who is not secure in his belief in God uses the bible as
the forementioned crutch.
That somebody not secure in his belief in God needs a religion as sort
of a translator.
And somebody who is secure in his belief shouldn't need or use either.

You’re a little beyond tired of hearing my views on religion? Then don’t
read them. I don’t recall twisting your arm.



No Abra, I'm beyond tired of hearing you insulting people for THEIR
views on relgion.

Invisible wrote:
‘Abra, tell me when I'm wrong, but the way I understand you the bible is
like a crutch for somebody who is not able to walk on his own, meaning,
that somebody who is not secure in his belief in God uses the bible as
the forementioned crutch. That somebody not secure in his belief in God
needs a religion as sort of a translator. And somebody who is secure in
his belief shouldn't need or use either.”

Well this is certainly true for some people. But that’s not my major
point at all.

Most people are born into a religion dogma. Even if their immediate
family isn’t into it, they are still born into it in the sense that it’s
so prevalent in society. They aren’t usually offered many choices. In
the USA it’s usually either Christianity (which comes in a whole bunch
of flavors but has the same basic picture of an external god) or Atheism
which is to denounce the existence of a god altogether.

Religions that actually address god as being an integral part of the
human essence are rare in the USA. People are born into an idea that
God is a completely separate entity. Sure, they might talk about God
making a presence in their spirit, but even then they still talk about
God as ‘coming into’ their life. Like as if god could ever somehow be
separate from you. Like as if you are somehow an separate entity in your
own right.

So it’s not so much that people lean on religion as a crutch, it’s more
a matter of having been born into it and taught this external idea of a
God. They just never really had the opportunity to learn about the true
nature of god.

I agree to some point, even I was born into such a dogma.
But is it not so that when you really believe in God and search for him,
you should find him within yourself and in the world around you and
outgrow the said dogma?

Sheila wrote:
‘No Abra, I'm beyond tired of hearing you insulting people for THEIR
views on relgion..”

Sheila, you are totally off base with your accusations here. And
personally I’m taking your accusations as a personal insult directed
specifically at me accusing me of insulting other people for their views
on religion.

I believe in evolution. When people tell me that they think it’s stupid
to believe in evolution I don’t’ take that as a personal insult at all.

In the very same way, if I say that I believe it's stupid to believe in
the God depicted in the Bible. No one should take that as a personal
insult ether. It’s just my own personal view. It’s not intended to be
taken as a personal insult directed at people who believe in the Bible.

It’s my view. It’s an opinion.

Why should you be personally insulted by my views?

Just tell me to shove‘em and don’t worry about it.

I’ve told you in several posts already that I make absolutely no
judgments about your own personal level of intelligence. I refuse to
be held hostage to your claim that I have implied otherwise.

I have NO objection to your VIEWS whatsoever..what I object to is your
attitude that anyone who follows the teachings of the Bible is somehow
"duped" or is "ignorant." I don't have time to point out, right now,
specific statements you've made that have led me to come to that
conclusion, (and others, as well, I might add) because there's a lawn
outside waiting to be mowed...but I'll be back a bit later.

Oh, and another thing. I do not "simply confuse religion with God."
Another insult, right there...suggesting I'm "confused." I'm no such
thing.

Sheila, I have never reported anyone on a public forum yet in my life.
But you are clearly breaking the forum rules here. I’m not going to
report you but I should.

I have been telling you over and over and over again that it is not my
intent to personally insult anyone. I have repeated told you
personally that I have absolutely no desire to insult you on a personal
level and that I make absolutely no judgments whatsoever concerning your
level of intelligence.

Yet you continually FOLLOW me around the forums HOUNDING me with
accusations that I’m an insult to your intelligence. This kind of
personal hounding is clearly against the forum rules.

If you believe that I have personally insulted you please report me and
allow the forum owners to decide whether or not this is the case.

Otherwise, please leave me alone and quite breaking the forum rules by
following me around hounding me with accusations that I am personally
insulting you. It’s not true. I’d actually prefer to avoid you if I
may.

I have made no intentional insults toward you on a personal level at
all. Period.

However, I do feel that you are hounding me with unjustified personal
accusations. You haven’t posted one single post on topic yet. All of
your posts are accusations directed at me personally.

I have never once made an intentional insult toward you. On the
contrary I have made every attempt to be as civil as I can possibly be.

Abra..... No one is "forced" to follow any path, nor forced to chose
any path via the 10 Commandments. If a person chooses to follow a path,
the 10 Commandments, the Bible, the word of God......it is what feels
right to them and is hardly "pathetic". I am certainly learning from
your opinions, as well as others, why or how people think or believe as
they do because there are many that are different from myself.

Why must there always be the innuendo and snide remarks with your posts
to those that believe in something that is not as you do? A man of such
intelligence, yet finds the need to do that, in order to get a point
across, is difficult to understand.

Abra, if someone told you you were stupid because you believe in
evolution, *I'd* take offense to that. And I do NOT believe in
"evolution." Not that we evolved from apes, that is.

abra, I am NOT breaking forum rules simply by pointing out that you are
being rude to people! Why do you think it's okay for you to say
belittling things about the religion people choose to follow, yet, when
someone calls you out on that, you take offense to it?

Also, I didn't not state that you were *specifically* insulting me,
personally, but that I *do* take offense to your acting as though people
who follow the teachings of the Bible are ignorant.

JaneBond wrote:
“If a person chooses to follow a path, the 10 Commandments, the Bible,
the word of God......it is what feels right to them and is hardly
"pathetic".

You’ve just misunderstood what I’ve said.

I didn’t say that at all.

I said, “Can a person really be forced to chose to take a path via a
list of commandments from a god? How pathetic if that was the only
motivation for their choice.”

JaneBond wrote:
“No one is "forced" to follow any path, nor forced to chose any path via
the 10 Commandments”

What I meant by that is was two-fold.

First off, a lot of children are indeed being ‘forced’ to attend church
with their parents and adopt Christianity as their basic picture of God.
Many of my childhood friends came from strict Catholic families that
quite literally forced them to attend mass. They would be severely
punished if they didn’t not attend church. So many people have this
dogma ‘forced’ onto them as a child. And even if they parents aren’t so
forceful about it, they often lead their children into the faith thus
basically brainwashing them with this religious picture. Not that they
want to ‘brainwash’ them. But that’s basically the result.

The second point is that many churches do indeed preach in a fire and
brimstone fashion. So while they may not be ‘forcing’ people to follow
a path, they are attempting to intimidated them to following it.

Once again I’ll post Einstein’s quote. Because, although he doesn’t use
the word ‘pathetic’ he basically implies it when he says that ‘man would
be in a poor way’, and that’s all I meant by ‘pathetic’. It wasn’t
mean to be a ‘snide’ remark.

”A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment
and hope of reward after death.” - Albert Einstein

Why would someone follow a book?

The message came not from a book but from a man.

Once it became subject to editorial processes of men. It became a
different message.

did the annointed one speak at the supper 'Go thou and feed my followers
nasty tasting wafers and give them to sip of foul wine that they may
know me?

Was his message 'teach ye my word and fleece ye those that believe it?

Or was his message much more simple and not needing of a church or a
book?

LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE THYSELF.

What's the difference if you get the message ("Love thy neighbor...")
from a "book" or if you get it from some kind of "divine intervention"
or whatever?"

The message is still the same, is it not?

Shelia wrote:
“abra, I am NOT breaking forum rules simply by pointing out that you are
being rude to people! Why do you think it's okay for you to say
belittling things about the religion people choose to follow, yet, when
someone calls you out on that, you take offense to it?”

I am not insulting anyone on a personal level anymore than Albert
Einstein did in his quote.

You are breaking the forum rules because you are following me around and
hounding me accusing me of making ‘personal’ insults when I am not.

Shelia wrote:
“Also, I didn't not state that you were *specifically* insulting me,
personally, but that I *do* take offense to your acting as though people
who follow the teachings of the Bible are ignorant.”

Well, I can’t be responsible for what you personally take offense to.

I can only offer that no personal offense is intended.

I’m stating my views as to why I believe a particular dogma does not
properly reflect the true nature of god.

Rather than being offended by that, why not just rebut my views with
explanations of why you feel they are incorrect.

That perticular book is being used to control people.

I am sure that was not the intention of His Holiness Christ.

I have heard people say 'whenever there are two or more..."

I have never heard people say 'Whenever you gather before a priest...

Nor have I heard them say 'only from the book...

I have NOT accused you of making PERSONAL insults, although, you HAVE
made statements directly following mine that could certainly be
construed as such.

What you are doing is making GENERAL insults about people who believe in
the Bible and follow what the Bible teaches. I am not a fundamentalist,
and I'm certainly not an extremist, but I do believe that much of the
Bible is the inspired Word of God and it is there in which I take
personal offense.

Even if I were an athiest, though, I'd take offense to it, because it's
wrong for you to insult people for their religious beliefs. I don't
believe the way Jews do, or Catholics, or Hindus or Muslims, etc., but I
don't claim they're "duped" because they follow the teachings of their
holy books.

I don't claim you're "duped" because you believe in some "cosmic mumbo
jumbo," either, because I feel you have a right to believe as you see
fit, without someone calling you "pathetic" for it.

If you stop insulting people, and own up to it, instead of proclaiming
total "innocence," then that would be the end of this discussion.

"That perticular book is being used to control people."

It is? It doesn't "control" me. I suppose some religions could try to
use it in that manner, but people are free to believe and interpret the
Bible as they see fit.

But if you follow the "golden rule," what is it that's being used to
"control" you? Your own conscience, I would surmise? Well, if a person
CHOOSES to follow the teachings of the Bible, he or she does it of his
or her own free will.

"I am sure that was not the intention of His Holiness Christ."

I'm sure.

"I have heard people say 'whenever there are two or more..."

"whenever there are two or more ..." -- what?

"I have never heard people say 'Whenever you gather before a priest...

Nor have I heard them say 'only from the book... "

I'm sorry, you lost me with those last two statements.



I've hear