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| Topic: CREATION VERSUS EVOLUTION MADE CLEAR !!! | |
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With the many atrocities in the name of God that has been reflected in the history of mankind, I cannot understand how anyone can follow such a idealogy in the first place regardless of what the religion or faith it comes from. There are truly people who can live peaceful amongst each other who are non religious or spiritual that have better belief systems then the gods that many have worshipped. Clearly a mediterrenean mythology as harmless as it may look is truly as dangerous as history has told it. When people start screaming "Because God whilsts it" then it is already a lost cause as we know in history people have lost their lives just because they are from a different culture, belief system, or lifestyle that is not adapted to the religion that seeks to spread across the globe by any means necessary. I admire those spiritual paths that do not seek by any means possible to influence their idealogies onto others, but instead practice for their own well being and inner happiness. Those are the people we should admire and follow and only few have made in the books of history as we know it. You are blaming religion for the people who abuse it. Do you think prescription drugs are evil? Lot's of people abuse them. Stalin killed millions in the name of Atheism. Does that make all people who do not believe in God evil because Stalin was? The way to my inner happiness and well being is to not follow anyone, and I don't admire anyone for their philosophies. It's their actions I admire. I couldn't care less what they believe. Yes many have followed religion as the true path of rightenous on how we should act, be, and live. Many use religion as a excuse for their actions also. It is recorded in history many times and it is your choice to see it how it is. If you don't believe it to be true then you can bypass history as much as you want, yet you will have many who will always disagree with it. If you don't follow anyone is also a good path. I have not followed anyone at all and lived under one rule all my life, which is "don't do that what you don't want done to you." This was and is primarily sufficient for me to live a productive life full of happiness and inner peace, yet I also enjoy those who have lived similiar paths and even truly helped those find a peaceful way of life in which I can proudly say they are great people to admire. There is nothing wrong with this. One of them I can say now is a friend at the miccosokee tribes of indians here in florida who is a chief of 93 years old. I can say that he is a great example who has shown many how to deal with the atrocities their culture had suffered by your ancestory and how they deal with it today. "Don't do that which you don't want done to you" is another way of stating "The Golden Rule", is it not? So you're living your life by christain principles. I think you will find that a closer look at the atrocities of "religion" are not representative of Chistianity at all. Just the abuse of religion. How does that - in any way - show an allegience to Christ? You are using the common misconception that religion and chritainity are interchangable terms. They are not. Those organizations that follow the bible like to claim anything that they deem successful to mankind and even take credit for it. For example Galileo had mentioned that Earth is not the center of the Universe and that Earth instead revolves around the Sun. So this was heresy and he was thrown in jail for mentioning this. Perhaps even tortured by somekind of torture technic that the popes instilled in their chambers. Ah... you're refering to that religion that calls Rome it's home. I once belonged to that "religion". In my whole life - the only Catholic I ever met who ever read the bible was Miguesl, and I met him here. Other than that, the only Catholics I know who have read the bible - are no longer Catholics - but "Designer Christains" as Abra calls us. "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" is not a christian discovery like they claim they want it to be. I am sure you will find Eastern Religions that have discovered this truth way before any mediterrenean mythology even thought about it. Perhaps you should study Buddhism as one of the earlier Eastern Religions and you will see that many things of what Jesus taught comes from there. Unfortunately, those who wrote the bible twisted the actual teachings of Jesus who I think truly tried to show a different perspective of how one can coexist peacefully. Here are more examples: Walter Wallace tried to free his people from English control to create Scotland. When he was betrayed and thrown in prison to later be executed he had to confess to the popes at the time that he was wrong and should ask for forgiveness. He didn't do this and so they chose to torture him. Another example: Those who studied herbal medicine and talked to spirits in their own belief system where then burned on the stake as witches. By the way Christians are the ones that called them witches when indeed they were considered people of respect for they tried to help those who were sick. Another example: What was beyond the Black Forest where people that were given a name called "Barbarians" because they didn't practice the same faith system or lived the same style then those of Christian Faith. Remember Christian faith was more then just believing in a all mighty creator it was about how one lives a life also. Therefore those in Gaul who didn't follow Christianity where referred as "Barbarians" because they had a Pagan belief system instead. The crusade appointed by a Pope who represents as the highest authority for the religion where people follow his advice as the "holy words from God". So here we have Europeans lusting to transform the Middle East into Christianity because many believe that is the right way to live and act in a society. How ironic that this is happening again and yet again it is a lost cause for the Muslim faith is just as demanding as the Christians are. Another Example: The Spaniards and Portugese who where strong Catholic belief systems sailed over to the Americas to plunder the riches from the continent and bring it back to their countries in the name of "God". Their sails, flags, and their faith was used to make it righteous to do the horrific atrocities that led to over 150 million Natives on that continent die from being whipped, forced, and killed to do slave labor jobs. Because "God whilst it!". Then if this isn't enough we have another 50 million Native Americans in North America that had died from the atrocities of Dutch, French, English, and even Americans who justified the New World to belong to them. Now after they have thrown all the Indians into Reservations they made them learn and study Christianity. Yes MADE them because it was required to discipline and civilize their culture. Don't believe me then ask my 93 year old friend who holds a diary from his grandfather who told the story of how they were forced to learn Christianity because they were considered animals. This is no different then the Missionaries going around the world teaching how to be obedient in the name of the "one God who demands it" or you will be sent to a hell. The highest authorities of churches who are suppose to represent the bible and its teachings claim that their teachings is the only way to live a life and to go the right way to heaven. It is still happening today, but thankfully not so forcefully as it use to be as many scientists are now allowed to research as of other faiths can be practice or none at all!. Just imagine what would happen to a person if one said he or she is a atheist in the 1600's. So in the end as I do take a larger look at Christianity in general of what it teaches in the bible (many contradictions by the way) and also see the actions of those in charge of the religion, one can only say that its record is not that admirable at all. One can only think how much peaceful and interesting this world would have been if Christianity would have died out a thousand years earlier. In the end I am lucky to live a life where I can choose what to believe in and also express my thoughts about the subject for if I couldn't I surely would be burned on the stake just for saying that the bible is something one shouldn't follow to live a peaceful life. I would rather prefer a study of belief systems that are truly more peaceful such as Buddhism or even Native American Spirituality. Their wisdom is much more peaceful and have not even commited such atrocities as the mediterrenean mythologies in its whole history. Of all of these "examples" that you site - could you explain to me how they come "before" any of the mediterranian religions, and who is the authority by which you state this claim to be valid? What is the earliest document we have discussing any of these references? And who is making the claim that they know what they are reporting is any more reliable than the authors of any of the books of the bible? In other words... How do you know any of this isn't just made up? You misunderstand. The examples I have given are not before mediterrenean times. This is just examples of how religion persecuted good people at the time. Concerning the golden rule that you claim is christian "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" has existed in other countries long before Christianity even became a religion. This is what I meant that there are older cultures that have lived by that rule before any mediterrenean mythology existed. Try China and you would be surprised that this golden rule you speak off had already existed. If you want to claim that christians or the jews came up with that quote first then be my guest. It is a good rule to live by and used it all my life. Of all the examples I showed you above on religious persecutions or torture is only a small scratch on the surface of how religion has changed much of the worlds thinking at its time. I am in the opinion that a mediterrenean religions are much more aggressive in its writings and teachings then the Eastern Religions. Those I speak of are Greek, Roman, Muslim, Jewish, and last but not least Christian. Do they have some good writings in it. I am sure they have, but history shows that they have also influenced the wrong path in life for many have done great atrocities in the name of the religion they believe to be justified in doing so. They were not stopped and told this is not how the bible teaches? They were not told well this is not gods will? The people agreed to these leaders and follow along thinking this is "Gods will" The most famous chant was "God whilst it" by the many who followed a mediterrenean mythology in which I also claim Christianity should belong to. Hmmm... my sense is that we are in agreement on the destructive abilities of religion - but we differ greatly on understanding what christainity is. None of the atrocities you have names - or will name are representative of christainity - for they defy the very nature of christianity and how it is defined by the book where the term originated. Unfortunately - man has re-interpreted the bible to serve his own needs - rather than Christs, and this is where christainity and religion part. However - for those who do not see the christianity of the scriptures for lack of investigation - anyone's interpretation of it suffices. That is why peole look at the Crusades and think that it was "Christains" who did it - yet any christain knows that here is nothing in the bible that supports this behavior through understanding context - only through pretext. And through Pretext - anyone can make anything say what they want it to. |
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Well, Eljay, all I can say is, don't expect many of us to ever take you seriously again.
First you make the claim that the Crusades predate Christianity, then you make the claim that the head of the Roman-Catholic church is not a Christian. |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Wed 03/04/09 08:48 AM
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Hmmm... my sense is that we are in agreement on the destructive abilities of religion - but we differ greatly on understanding what christainity is. None of the atrocities you have names - or will name are representative of christainity - for they defy the very nature of christianity and how it is defined by the book where the term originated. Unfortunately - man has re-interpreted the bible to serve his own needs - rather than Christs, and this is where christainity and religion part. However - for those who do not see the christianity of the scriptures for lack of investigation - anyone's interpretation of it suffices. That is why peole look at the Crusades and think that it was "Christains" who did it - yet any christain knows that here is nothing in the bible that supports this behavior through understanding context - only through pretext. And through Pretext - anyone can make anything say what they want it to.
You are seriously kidding yourself if you believe this Eljay. To begin with there is no single accepted interpretation of the Bible. Clearly the Jews and the Muslims veered off when Christianity was born with their versions which actually were so drastically different they earned their own names (i.e. the Torah and the Quran). However, even if we ignore that, just looking at the Christian Sect we see Christianity fall into a myriad of conflicting and opposing views. The Catholics had the right idea to preserve a religion. Give one person supreme authority to interpret the scripture and everyone else must accept his interpretation. However, many people protested against this and thus Protestantism was born. Protestantism has truly become the biggest joke on Earth. And I’m not saying that with intent to belittle it but simply because it is truly the epitome of hypocrisy. Protestantism was originally based on the “protest” or rejection of the idea that any mortal man should interpret the Holy Scriptures for other people”. No mortal man speaks for god! That was the protest that created Protestantism in the first place. But now look at what Protestantism has become today. Protestant fundamentalists are the most arrogant by far of all the Christians. They are the one’s who demand that only their interpretation is acceptable as the word of god! They reverted back to precisely that the Protestants originally protested against! Instead of sticking with the idea that no mortal man can speak for God they simply reject the Pope as the ultimate interpreter of scripture and becomeself-appointed paper popes! And that’s what makes fundamental Protestantism so dangerous, any random idiot can claim to be the Pope! Here is a direct quote from a Fundamental Protestant Paper Pope that was posted on this very forum: You can not ever ever ever BE A RIGHTEOUS MAN/WOMAN AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD'S SON.......
Clearly she is very passionate about this being the “Word of God” because she repeated the word “ever” three times, and then made her major point in ALL CAPS like it should be CARVED IN STONE as the WORD OF GOD! 
Now you come along as yet another Paper Pope and you attempt to declare that you can’t blame Christianity for the Paper Popes who don’t agree with your interepretation of the scriptures, you seem to even be suggesting that there exist some actual correct interpretation, but thus far no one has been able to agree on what that is, including any two Christians!. The bottom line is that no one agrees on what the Bible is saying, especially the Christians! It’s totally ambiguous, clearly self-contradictive and inconsistent, and it doesn’t even contain a single solitarily word that was actually written by the man who was supposed to be the mortal incarnation of God. It entirely a book of hearsay that was clearly written at least a half a century after the man who was supposed to be the incarnation of God had died. The idea that any ‘Protester’ of Catholicism should have a better interpretation of this book than the original Catholic Pope is truly ludicrous. Either the Pope had it correct, or there’s nothing to it! That should be obvious to anyone. Either Catholicism is true, or Christianity is false. This crap of having radical self-appointed Paper Popes claiming to speak for Jesus is truly the epitome of insanity! How do you deal with a Paper Pope who claims, “You can not ever ever ever BE A RIGHTEOUS MAN/WOMAN AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD'S SON.......” All they are saying to you is that you don’t convert to their interpretation of the scriptures they can never respect you as being a ‘righteous’ person (or ‘righteous nation’) whatever the case may be. All they are saying to people is, “If you don’t interpret this ancient book they way I do I will forever view you as being an evil person who had no moral values at all , and you are also clearly rejecting our creator and siding as his enemy! That’s basically what they are saying. How can you live side-by-side with people who have so vehemently voiced the fact that they have absolutely no respect for you! To claim that someone is an unrighteous and ungodly person is to reject their voice and opinions as being ‘ungodly’. It’s basically an ultimatum. They are basically saying, “Either convert to my religious beliefs or I will forever view your opinions and actions as being unrighteous, ungodly, and therefore unworthy of consideration!” Is that Christianity Eljay? Do you agree with this rejection of non-Christians as being unrighteous and ungodly? If you do then you are basically saying that non-Christians are unworthy of respect. After all, how could anyone respect someone whom they view as being unrighteous and willfully rejecting the creator of humanity? 
That’s an extremely dangerous view. That’s precisely the kind of view that drove the Crusades, the mass murdering of the Cathers, the Torturing and Burning of innocent midwives, and even contributed to the anti-Semitic views that gave the Catholic Church and German Christians divine permission to go along with an ungodly holocaust. This religion has to be exposed for the ungodly mythology that it truly is. It just makes no sense to continue to defend it in the face of the atrocities that it supports whether on a national scale, or even on a personal scale of having one person belittling another person for being ‘unrighteous’ in the eyes of “God” simply because they don’t view the “scriptures” through the egotistical lens of a Paper Pope. All the religion does is create Paper Pope who become deluded into believing that their views are God’s views. That’s what makes the religion so dangerous Eljay. It’s just makes no sense to support a religion that denounces the righteousness of anyone based on how they might view our creator, or even perhaps because they are an atheist. The religion just breeds prejudice and judgment the very things that Jesus himself denounced! It’s an oxymoronic religion! Jesus taught not to judge others, yet this is all that Christianity is ever used for! All the Christians do is continually tell people that if they don’t believe that Jesus was God they are unrighteous and rejecting God! They are using Jesus as an EXCUSE to judge others. It’s an oxymoronic religion! It just makes no sense to claim that non-Christians are unrighteous. That just spits in the very face of Jesus! This crap has got to stop. And that includes denouncing evolution in the name of God, and same-gender love in the name of God, and rejecting non-Christians as heathens in the name of God. All Christianity does is allow people to become bigots in the name of Jesus Christ. That clearly was never the man’s intent, whether he was mortal or divine. Christianity is the antithesis of Jesus whether he was divine or not. The religion is a slap in the face to Jesus no matter who he was. As a “Christian” I denounce the religion! In fact, that’s precisely what I did! It’s ungodly and it spits in the face of what the Bible even claims that Jesus supposedly taught. People who use Jesus to denounce the righteousness of non-believers are committing blaspheme of the highest order. True believers in Jesus need to start denouncing this formal religion that stole his name because it’s truly the antithesis of Jesus. It’s a train-wrecked religion. Let it die. Help it die! For Jesus’ sake! |
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With the many atrocities in the name of God that has been reflected in the history of mankind, I cannot understand how anyone can follow such a idealogy in the first place regardless of what the religion or faith it comes from. There are truly people who can live peaceful amongst each other who are non religious or spiritual that have better belief systems then the gods that many have worshipped. Clearly a mediterrenean mythology as harmless as it may look is truly as dangerous as history has told it. When people start screaming "Because God whilsts it" then it is already a lost cause as we know in history people have lost their lives just because they are from a different culture, belief system, or lifestyle that is not adapted to the religion that seeks to spread across the globe by any means necessary. I admire those spiritual paths that do not seek by any means possible to influence their idealogies onto others, but instead practice for their own well being and inner happiness. Those are the people we should admire and follow and only few have made in the books of history as we know it. You are blaming religion for the people who abuse it. Do you think prescription drugs are evil? Lot's of people abuse them. Stalin killed millions in the name of Atheism. Does that make all people who do not believe in God evil because Stalin was? The way to my inner happiness and well being is to not follow anyone, and I don't admire anyone for their philosophies. It's their actions I admire. I couldn't care less what they believe. Yes many have followed religion as the true path of rightenous on how we should act, be, and live. Many use religion as a excuse for their actions also. It is recorded in history many times and it is your choice to see it how it is. If you don't believe it to be true then you can bypass history as much as you want, yet you will have many who will always disagree with it. If you don't follow anyone is also a good path. I have not followed anyone at all and lived under one rule all my life, which is "don't do that what you don't want done to you." This was and is primarily sufficient for me to live a productive life full of happiness and inner peace, yet I also enjoy those who have lived similiar paths and even truly helped those find a peaceful way of life in which I can proudly say they are great people to admire. There is nothing wrong with this. One of them I can say now is a friend at the miccosokee tribes of indians here in florida who is a chief of 93 years old. I can say that he is a great example who has shown many how to deal with the atrocities their culture had suffered by your ancestory and how they deal with it today. "Don't do that which you don't want done to you" is another way of stating "The Golden Rule", is it not? So you're living your life by christain principles. I think you will find that a closer look at the atrocities of "religion" are not representative of Chistianity at all. Just the abuse of religion. How does that - in any way - show an allegience to Christ? You are using the common misconception that religion and chritainity are interchangable terms. They are not. Those organizations that follow the bible like to claim anything that they deem successful to mankind and even take credit for it. For example Galileo had mentioned that Earth is not the center of the Universe and that Earth instead revolves around the Sun. So this was heresy and he was thrown in jail for mentioning this. Perhaps even tortured by somekind of torture technic that the popes instilled in their chambers. Ah... you're refering to that religion that calls Rome it's home. I once belonged to that "religion". In my whole life - the only Catholic I ever met who ever read the bible was Miguesl, and I met him here. Other than that, the only Catholics I know who have read the bible - are no longer Catholics - but "Designer Christains" as Abra calls us. "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" is not a christian discovery like they claim they want it to be. I am sure you will find Eastern Religions that have discovered this truth way before any mediterrenean mythology even thought about it. Perhaps you should study Buddhism as one of the earlier Eastern Religions and you will see that many things of what Jesus taught comes from there. Unfortunately, those who wrote the bible twisted the actual teachings of Jesus who I think truly tried to show a different perspective of how one can coexist peacefully. Here are more examples: Walter Wallace tried to free his people from English control to create Scotland. When he was betrayed and thrown in prison to later be executed he had to confess to the popes at the time that he was wrong and should ask for forgiveness. He didn't do this and so they chose to torture him. Another example: Those who studied herbal medicine and talked to spirits in their own belief system where then burned on the stake as witches. By the way Christians are the ones that called them witches when indeed they were considered people of respect for they tried to help those who were sick. Another example: What was beyond the Black Forest where people that were given a name called "Barbarians" because they didn't practice the same faith system or lived the same style then those of Christian Faith. Remember Christian faith was more then just believing in a all mighty creator it was about how one lives a life also. Therefore those in Gaul who didn't follow Christianity where referred as "Barbarians" because they had a Pagan belief system instead. The crusade appointed by a Pope who represents as the highest authority for the religion where people follow his advice as the "holy words from God". So here we have Europeans lusting to transform the Middle East into Christianity because many believe that is the right way to live and act in a society. How ironic that this is happening again and yet again it is a lost cause for the Muslim faith is just as demanding as the Christians are. Another Example: The Spaniards and Portugese who where strong Catholic belief systems sailed over to the Americas to plunder the riches from the continent and bring it back to their countries in the name of "God". Their sails, flags, and their faith was used to make it righteous to do the horrific atrocities that led to over 150 million Natives on that continent die from being whipped, forced, and killed to do slave labor jobs. Because "God whilst it!". Then if this isn't enough we have another 50 million Native Americans in North America that had died from the atrocities of Dutch, French, English, and even Americans who justified the New World to belong to them. Now after they have thrown all the Indians into Reservations they made them learn and study Christianity. Yes MADE them because it was required to discipline and civilize their culture. Don't believe me then ask my 93 year old friend who holds a diary from his grandfather who told the story of how they were forced to learn Christianity because they were considered animals. This is no different then the Missionaries going around the world teaching how to be obedient in the name of the "one God who demands it" or you will be sent to a hell. The highest authorities of churches who are suppose to represent the bible and its teachings claim that their teachings is the only way to live a life and to go the right way to heaven. It is still happening today, but thankfully not so forcefully as it use to be as many scientists are now allowed to research as of other faiths can be practice or none at all!. Just imagine what would happen to a person if one said he or she is a atheist in the 1600's. So in the end as I do take a larger look at Christianity in general of what it teaches in the bible (many contradictions by the way) and also see the actions of those in charge of the religion, one can only say that its record is not that admirable at all. One can only think how much peaceful and interesting this world would have been if Christianity would have died out a thousand years earlier. In the end I am lucky to live a life where I can choose what to believe in and also express my thoughts about the subject for if I couldn't I surely would be burned on the stake just for saying that the bible is something one shouldn't follow to live a peaceful life. I would rather prefer a study of belief systems that are truly more peaceful such as Buddhism or even Native American Spirituality. Their wisdom is much more peaceful and have not even commited such atrocities as the mediterrenean mythologies in its whole history. Of all of these "examples" that you site - could you explain to me how they come "before" any of the mediterranian religions, and who is the authority by which you state this claim to be valid? What is the earliest document we have discussing any of these references? And who is making the claim that they know what they are reporting is any more reliable than the authors of any of the books of the bible? In other words... How do you know any of this isn't just made up? You misunderstand. The examples I have given are not before mediterrenean times. This is just examples of how religion persecuted good people at the time. Concerning the golden rule that you claim is christian "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" has existed in other countries long before Christianity even became a religion. This is what I meant that there are older cultures that have lived by that rule before any mediterrenean mythology existed. Try China and you would be surprised that this golden rule you speak off had already existed. If you want to claim that christians or the jews came up with that quote first then be my guest. It is a good rule to live by and used it all my life. Of all the examples I showed you above on religious persecutions or torture is only a small scratch on the surface of how religion has changed much of the worlds thinking at its time. I am in the opinion that a mediterrenean religions are much more aggressive in its writings and teachings then the Eastern Religions. Those I speak of are Greek, Roman, Muslim, Jewish, and last but not least Christian. Do they have some good writings in it. I am sure they have, but history shows that they have also influenced the wrong path in life for many have done great atrocities in the name of the religion they believe to be justified in doing so. They were not stopped and told this is not how the bible teaches? They were not told well this is not gods will? The people agreed to these leaders and follow along thinking this is "Gods will" The most famous chant was "God whilst it" by the many who followed a mediterrenean mythology in which I also claim Christianity should belong to. Hmmm... my sense is that we are in agreement on the destructive abilities of religion - but we differ greatly on understanding what christainity is. None of the atrocities you have names - or will name are representative of christainity - for they defy the very nature of christianity and how it is defined by the book where the term originated. Unfortunately - man has re-interpreted the bible to serve his own needs - rather than Christs, and this is where christainity and religion part. However - for those who do not see the christianity of the scriptures for lack of investigation - anyone's interpretation of it suffices. That is why peole look at the Crusades and think that it was "Christains" who did it - yet any christain knows that here is nothing in the bible that supports this behavior through understanding context - only through pretext. And through Pretext - anyone can make anything say what they want it to. How about all the atrocities described in OT especially the ones commanded or carried out by yahweh? Or is the god of the OT not the same god as the NT? Further more if you believe in the Trinity then yahweh and jesus are the same being. So the blood of the OT is as much on your hands as your religious ancestors. |
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Interesting enough, I was just reading an article that stated that the Emperor Theo something or other declared the concept of the Trinity to be absolute and then later the Church convened a council to accept it and declare it true. Another example, of a man dictating religion dogma?
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Interesting enough, I was just reading an article that stated that the Emperor Theo something or other declared the concept of the Trinity to be absolute and then later the Church convened a council to accept it and declare it true. Another example, of a man dictating religion dogma? Best modern day example is the pope. |
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The Pope is only infallible when he speaks Ex Catheria and it has only been three times since the doctrine of papal infallibility was established. All three times, it was something pertaining to the Virgin Mary.
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The Pope is only infallible when he speaks Ex Catheria and it has only been three times since the doctrine of papal infallibility was established. All three times, it was something pertaining to the Virgin Mary. Thankfully the pope does not command the kind of influence with governments that he used to. |
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The Pope is only infallible when he speaks Ex Catheria and it has only been three times since the doctrine of papal infallibility was established. All three times, it was something pertaining to the Virgin Mary. Thankfully the pope does not command the kind of influence with governments that he used to. Otherwise, the current conflict in the Middle East would truly be a modern day Crusade... |
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Ratzinger's last job was High Inquistor, but they changed the name of that group so he was technically, Head of Religious Doctrine or something. There are many people wondering if he is purposefully agitating others or is just stupid. With his comments about Jews, Muslims and re-instating that Holocaust denier, etc.
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Ooh, I think I just heard the conspiracy nutjobs up their ears.
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Ooh, I think I just heard the conspiracy nutjobs up their ears. They're all draconians. 
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Interesting enough, I was just reading an article that stated that the Emperor Theo something or other declared the concept of the Trinity to be absolute and then later the Church convened a council to accept it and declare it true. Another example, of a man dictating religion dogma? You're right the word "Trinity" doesn't even occur anywhere in the Bible. In fact, if we go by the Bible they three main characters would be the God of Abraham, Satan, and Jesus, in that order of importance. Satan must come before Jesus. Jesus would have no purpose or meaning without Satan in the Biblical mythology. In fact, evangelsists are going about their mission all wrong. They start out by asking people to accept Jesus as their "Savior". But in reality they should first be asking people to accept that the God of Abraham as their Creator, then they must accept Satan as their fallen angel that they FOLLOWED to abandon and reject their creator. THEN, and ONLY THEN, are they prepared to repent to Jesus and ask him to "save" them from THEIR OWN WILLFUL and PURPOSEFUL rejection of their creator! That's the ONLY WAY the story makes any sense. The idea that we need to be saved before we even understand what is it that we're supposed to be saved from is ludicous. We must FIRST accept and confess the FACT that we WILLFULLY and KNOWINGLY chose by our own FREE WILL to reject our creator and accept Satan as our demon. Anything less that that is silly. To accept Jesus as your savior without confessing that you "NEED" to be saved is empty and meaningless. And the ONLY REASON that you would "NEED" to be saved is if you have KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY CHOSE to reject God and follow Satan. So you must accept Satan as your Demon BEFORE it even makes any sense to accept Jesus as your Savior. You MUST ACCEPT Satan FIRST for the story to work. Since I have never accepted Satan as my demon it makes absolutely no sense for me to ask Jesus to 'save' me from something I never did in the first place. This crap that eveyone is already guilty of rejecting God and accepting Satan as their demon is the brainwashing demagoguery that make the Bible so EVIL. 
If Satan existed at all he existed in the demented minds of the men who actually blasphemed themselves when they wrote the Bible and claimed to speak for God. |
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
Great discovery, Evolution is action. |
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html Great discovery, Evolution is action. Well it's a done deal now. There can be no more complaints from religious people claiming that evolution is 'just a theory'. Clearly it's a proven fact now, and will only continue to be more firmly proven as time goes on. This is kind of like Galileo looking at the phases of Venus, the Moons of Jupiter and the imperfection of sun spots on the sun. The religious zealots refused to believe him initially too. Evolution is in the bag. Religion must now assimilate it, there's nothing left for them to do. 
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html Great discovery, Evolution is action. Well it's a done deal now. There can be no more complaints from religious people claiming that evolution is 'just a theory'. Clearly it's a proven fact now, and will only continue to be more firmly proven as time goes on. This is kind of like Galileo looking at the phases of Venus, the Moons of Jupiter and the imperfection of sun spots on the sun. The religious zealots refused to believe him initially too. Evolution is in the bag. Religion must now assimilate it, there's nothing left for them to do.
Of course, the Ironic thing here is the very church that condemned Galileo, has at the very least acknowledged that Evolution is more than "Just a Theory" for some time now... |
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Well, Eljay, all I can say is, don't expect many of us to ever take you seriously again. First you make the claim that the Crusades predate Christianity, then you make the claim that the head of the Roman-Catholic church is not a Christian. And here's why I dont take you seriously Inkracer. I NEVER said the Crusades predated Christainity - YOU said I did. Another prime example of your critical reading skills. I defy you to find the post I said that and quote me. I NEVER said the head of the Roman Catholic church is not a Christain. YOU did. Upon closer examiniation of my post, you will see that I asked HOW one knows the Pope is a Christian. So - until I sense some improvement in your reading skills - I'm always going to consider your posts based on a serious lack of comprehension and merely a spewing of your biased uninformed opinions. That's why you can never respond to my questions with an answer on topic. |
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Edited by
feralcatlady
on
Wed 03/04/09 03:09 PM
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Abra
The only time there is an interpretation misunderstanding is when a religion re-writes to fit their needs, Mormons....Otherwise it is what is written......PERIOD The only other up for interpretation between the religions is with Jesus..But God made it very clear who Jesus was so if man took that to mean he was just a prophet or a man...then who's fault is that. God is clear on Jesus being his only begotten Son. The only difference between catholics is they worship idols and statues such as saints and mary....Not they they may not have their place...but again God says worship no others. It doesn't mount to a hill of beans what any man says in trying to re-write to fit his needs.....do it but it means nothing. Now call me names abra....because frankly what you think means jack diddly....and when I said the below that no one can ever be truly righteoua....THIS IS TRUTH....And you are a delusional man if you think you are sinless and a righteous man.... And when I repeated the word ever ever ever it's because it will never happen...We are humans and as such we sin....PERIOD. It doesn't mean we don't try our hardest but if you think your above it abra....you seriously need to get help. AND AGAIN CAPS HERE FOR YOU TO GET A CLUE...I HAVE NEVER AND WOULD NEVER PUT MYSELF ON THE SAME LEVEL AS GOD...HOW MANY TIMES MUST I TELL YOU THIS. SO GET OFF IT...IT'S OLD AND YOUR ACT IS WEAK. No One is Righteous 9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, Righteousness Through Faith 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. AND DON'T TALK ABOUT ME LIKE I AM NOT HERE DING DONG....YOU GOT SOMETHING TO SAY TO ME...SAY IT TO ME...ELJAY DOESN'T KNOW WHY I WROTE WHAT I DID...NOW DOES HE....DUH There is also a correct interpretation abra, and that does not include butchering it and taking bits and pieces like you do. It is meant to read as a whole not one lil sentence and then butchering it to fit your needs. And your wrong there two....I don't know anyone that doesn't believe exactly what the Bible says....We study it...BUT WE DON'T TRY TO REWRITE IT.....IT IS WHAT IT IS FOR A REASON.... IT IS NOT CONTRADICTIVE, NOR INCONSISTANT, and also if again you studied it...which you have not....all of the writers of the Bible also say similar things even though written 100's of years apart from each other.... JESUS said what he said in the bible......They were there like I said before...What part of that don't you get...That would be like me writing verbatum everything you have ever said to me....which by the way, I could with accuracy.....They were there abra.... Like I said abra...the only difference between Christianity and Catholicism is again tradition.....which is crap, and praying to false idols.....Also just an example there is no way that anyone should be turned away from doing communion. Catholics do.....for shame... AND YOU DON'T KNOW MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD AND SAVIOR AND SO WHAT YOU THINK AGAIN DOESN'T AMOUNT TO A HELL OF BEANS. AND REMEMBER IT'S NOT ME THAT SAY'S NO ONE IS SINLESS IT JUST IS. AND IT IS GOD THAT SAYS NO ONE COMES TO ME EXCEPT THROUGH MY SON...NOT ME. Abra said: All they are saying to people is, “If you don’t interpret this ancient book they way I do I will forever view you as being an evil person who had no moral values at all , and you are also clearly rejecting our creator and siding as his enemy! Debbie said: never said it. And hmmmmmmmm not respect you.....where the heck did you ever get that....I respect you.....I am not your judge abra when I say anything it's meant overall not to you personally. And a bit of FYI it is not up to you either oh mighty god of the flowers, sun, rain and whatever else to tell anyone else what they should and should not believe either. You also are no ones judge do you get that abra. It makes all the sense to me to defend what I believe especially to someone who thinks "he knows all" because I hate to be the bearer of bad news abra....but you don't KNOW IT All. I will denounce evolution because if I believed in evolution then I would not believe in creation and as much as I give you to believe as you wish...I too believe that God created all just like it is written....The only one that I see slapping God or Christ is you. AND AGAIN HOW MANY TIMES MUST I PROCLAIM A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST NOT A RELIGION. GET A CLUE ABRA.....GET A CLUE |
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With the many atrocities in the name of God that has been reflected in the history of mankind, I cannot understand how anyone can follow such a idealogy in the first place regardless of what the religion or faith it comes from. There are truly people who can live peaceful amongst each other who are non religious or spiritual that have better belief systems then the gods that many have worshipped. Clearly a mediterrenean mythology as harmless as it may look is truly as dangerous as history has told it. When people start screaming "Because God whilsts it" then it is already a lost cause as we know in history people have lost their lives just because they are from a different culture, belief system, or lifestyle that is not adapted to the religion that seeks to spread across the globe by any means necessary. I admire those spiritual paths that do not seek by any means possible to influence their idealogies onto others, but instead practice for their own well being and inner happiness. Those are the people we should admire and follow and only few have made in the books of history as we know it. You are blaming religion for the people who abuse it. Do you think prescription drugs are evil? Lot's of people abuse them. Stalin killed millions in the name of Atheism. Does that make all people who do not believe in God evil because Stalin was? The way to my inner happiness and well being is to not follow anyone, and I don't admire anyone for their philosophies. It's their actions I admire. I couldn't care less what they believe. Yes many have followed religion as the true path of rightenous on how we should act, be, and live. Many use religion as a excuse for their actions also. It is recorded in history many times and it is your choice to see it how it is. If you don't believe it to be true then you can bypass history as much as you want, yet you will have many who will always disagree with it. If you don't follow anyone is also a good path. I have not followed anyone at all and lived under one rule all my life, which is "don't do that what you don't want done to you." This was and is primarily sufficient for me to live a productive life full of happiness and inner peace, yet I also enjoy those who have lived similiar paths and even truly helped those find a peaceful way of life in which I can proudly say they are great people to admire. There is nothing wrong with this. One of them I can say now is a friend at the miccosokee tribes of indians here in florida who is a chief of 93 years old. I can say that he is a great example who has shown many how to deal with the atrocities their culture had suffered by your ancestory and how they deal with it today. "Don't do that which you don't want done to you" is another way of stating "The Golden Rule", is it not? So you're living your life by christain principles. I think you will find that a closer look at the atrocities of "religion" are not representative of Chistianity at all. Just the abuse of religion. How does that - in any way - show an allegience to Christ? You are using the common misconception that religion and chritainity are interchangable terms. They are not. Those organizations that follow the bible like to claim anything that they deem successful to mankind and even take credit for it. For example Galileo had mentioned that Earth is not the center of the Universe and that Earth instead revolves around the Sun. So this was heresy and he was thrown in jail for mentioning this. Perhaps even tortured by somekind of torture technic that the popes instilled in their chambers. Ah... you're refering to that religion that calls Rome it's home. I once belonged to that "religion". In my whole life - the only Catholic I ever met who ever read the bible was Miguesl, and I met him here. Other than that, the only Catholics I know who have read the bible - are no longer Catholics - but "Designer Christains" as Abra calls us. "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" is not a christian discovery like they claim they want it to be. I am sure you will find Eastern Religions that have discovered this truth way before any mediterrenean mythology even thought about it. Perhaps you should study Buddhism as one of the earlier Eastern Religions and you will see that many things of what Jesus taught comes from there. Unfortunately, those who wrote the bible twisted the actual teachings of Jesus who I think truly tried to show a different perspective of how one can coexist peacefully. Here are more examples: Walter Wallace tried to free his people from English control to create Scotland. When he was betrayed and thrown in prison to later be executed he had to confess to the popes at the time that he was wrong and should ask for forgiveness. He didn't do this and so they chose to torture him. Another example: Those who studied herbal medicine and talked to spirits in their own belief system where then burned on the stake as witches. By the way Christians are the ones that called them witches when indeed they were considered people of respect for they tried to help those who were sick. Another example: What was beyond the Black Forest where people that were given a name called "Barbarians" because they didn't practice the same faith system or lived the same style then those of Christian Faith. Remember Christian faith was more then just believing in a all mighty creator it was about how one lives a life also. Therefore those in Gaul who didn't follow Christianity where referred as "Barbarians" because they had a Pagan belief system instead. The crusade appointed by a Pope who represents as the highest authority for the religion where people follow his advice as the "holy words from God". So here we have Europeans lusting to transform the Middle East into Christianity because many believe that is the right way to live and act in a society. How ironic that this is happening again and yet again it is a lost cause for the Muslim faith is just as demanding as the Christians are. Another Example: The Spaniards and Portugese who where strong Catholic belief systems sailed over to the Americas to plunder the riches from the continent and bring it back to their countries in the name of "God". Their sails, flags, and their faith was used to make it righteous to do the horrific atrocities that led to over 150 million Natives on that continent die from being whipped, forced, and killed to do slave labor jobs. Because "God whilst it!". Then if this isn't enough we have another 50 million Native Americans in North America that had died from the atrocities of Dutch, French, English, and even Americans who justified the New World to belong to them. Now after they have thrown all the Indians into Reservations they made them learn and study Christianity. Yes MADE them because it was required to discipline and civilize their culture. Don't believe me then ask my 93 year old friend who holds a diary from his grandfather who told the story of how they were forced to learn Christianity because they were considered animals. This is no different then the Missionaries going around the world teaching how to be obedient in the name of the "one God who demands it" or you will be sent to a hell. The highest authorities of churches who are suppose to represent the bible and its teachings claim that their teachings is the only way to live a life and to go the right way to heaven. It is still happening today, but thankfully not so forcefully as it use to be as many scientists are now allowed to research as of other faiths can be practice or none at all!. Just imagine what would happen to a person if one said he or she is a atheist in the 1600's. So in the end as I do take a larger look at Christianity in general of what it teaches in the bible (many contradictions by the way) and also see the actions of those in charge of the religion, one can only say that its record is not that admirable at all. One can only think how much peaceful and interesting this world would have been if Christianity would have died out a thousand years earlier. In the end I am lucky to live a life where I can choose what to believe in and also express my thoughts about the subject for if I couldn't I surely would be burned on the stake just for saying that the bible is something one shouldn't follow to live a peaceful life. I would rather prefer a study of belief systems that are truly more peaceful such as Buddhism or even Native American Spirituality. Their wisdom is much more peaceful and have not even commited such atrocities as the mediterrenean mythologies in its whole history. Of all of these "examples" that you site - could you explain to me how they come "before" any of the mediterranian religions, and who is the authority by which you state this claim to be valid? What is the earliest document we have discussing any of these references? And who is making the claim that they know what they are reporting is any more reliable than the authors of any of the books of the bible? In other words... How do you know any of this isn't just made up? You misunderstand. The examples I have given are not before mediterrenean times. This is just examples of how religion persecuted good people at the time. Concerning the golden rule that you claim is christian "Don't do that what you don't want done to you" has existed in other countries long before Christianity even became a religion. This is what I meant that there are older cultures that have lived by that rule before any mediterrenean mythology existed. Try China and you would be surprised that this golden rule you speak off had already existed. If you want to claim that christians or the jews came up with that quote first then be my guest. It is a good rule to live by and used it all my life. Of all the examples I showed you above on religious persecutions or torture is only a small scratch on the surface of how religion has changed much of the worlds thinking at its time. I am in the opinion that a mediterrenean religions are much more aggressive in its writings and teachings then the Eastern Religions. Those I speak of are Greek, Roman, Muslim, Jewish, and last but not least Christian. Do they have some good writings in it. I am sure they have, but history shows that they have also influenced the wrong path in life for many have done great atrocities in the name of the religion they believe to be justified in doing so. They were not stopped and told this is not how the bible teaches? They were not told well this is not gods will? The people agreed to these leaders and follow along thinking this is "Gods will" The most famous chant was "God whilst it" by the many who followed a mediterrenean mythology in which I also claim Christianity should belong to. Hmmm... my sense is that we are in agreement on the destructive abilities of religion - but we differ greatly on understanding what christainity is. None of the atrocities you have names - or will name are representative of christainity - for they defy the very nature of christianity and how it is defined by the book where the term originated. Unfortunately - man has re-interpreted the bible to serve his own needs - rather than Christs, and this is where christainity and religion part. However - for those who do not see the christianity of the scriptures for lack of investigation - anyone's interpretation of it suffices. That is why peole look at the Crusades and think that it was "Christains" who did it - yet any christain knows that here is nothing in the bible that supports this behavior through understanding context - only through pretext. And through Pretext - anyone can make anything say what they want it to. How about all the atrocities described in OT especially the ones commanded or carried out by yahweh? Or is the god of the OT not the same god as the NT? Further more if you believe in the Trinity then yahweh and jesus are the same being. So the blood of the OT is as much on your hands as your religious ancestors. Of course God is the same.....imo the only difference is that ot law was more tradition and when Christ died he died for all to come to him..So no longer did the traditions of the OT hold ground.....It was the again men holding up tradition and thinking they were all that in doing do. The trinity is the Father God, the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit..... |
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Well, Eljay, all I can say is, don't expect many of us to ever take you seriously again. First you make the claim that the Crusades predate Christianity, then you make the claim that the head of the Roman-Catholic church is not a Christian. reread his post. that isn't what he said |
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