Alright Sir Spidercmb,

We can argue this topic forever and I don't think neither one can convince the other... So, let's agree to disagree and call it a truce, shall we?

Shalom!

No where have I stated that their methods are justified. I do not condone the firing of missiles into civilian populations by anyone.

Nor do I condone the blockade (which by International Law is a declaration of war) against a people. Nor do I condone collective punishment (illegal under Geneva Convention).

Hamas: an organization, Palestinians: a people. You do not collectively punish a people for the actions of a few.

Really! Defense includes expulsion of people to move in your own people and create settlements?

Settlement: a new colony, or a place newly colonized.

Sounds like expansion not defense.

The lines are blurred.
There is no black and white anywhere around here.

The Israelis respond with unreasonable force to a few missiles.

Hamas direct all aid to their own people.

Neither side is pure.

But what is true is that the Israelis use far greater force to achieve an aim than they need to.

They started by bombing the tunnels that they say are being used to transport weapons and supplies into the Strip.

They said (in 2006) that they targetted ambulances (with big red crosses and crescents) because they were being used as transport for weapons and supplis.

Im not so naieve to think that this didnt happen. I have lived with the Arabic peoples for a while and they do think differently.

But unless you stop the flow of money and weapons to the region from the West, there is no reason why they will stop.

All of the west is happy with destabilisation of the region. If it keeps them busy, then the West is not targetted for it's outrages.

If you plucked an Isreali, a Palestinian, a Lebanese christian and an Egyptian off their respective streets and put them in a restaurant and left them, they would actually peacefully co-exist, as they would use their common dislike of their own ruling parties to form a friendly respectable bond. (I have witnessed this, here in the Egyptian Sinai in a camp south of the Israeli border)

Studies prove they all are warm-hearted people and that being social and sociable is in their respective make ups.

It is only the governments and the counter-intelligence agitators that keep them from forming peace.

The fundamental difference here is that Hamas is a terrorist organization, while the state of Israel is a recognized country, a government. And while you can't expect a terrorist group to follow and obide by International laws and regulations set forth by the U.N. concerning human rights and rules of engagement, you can surely have that expectation of the Israel government.

I'll give you a lame example... Imagine the L.A.P.D., a city police department, deciding one day to send all their SWAT teams and police force into the city of Compton to shoot everyone on sight in retaliation for a couple of gang members who had shot at a police officer the previous day. Do you see what I mean?

Give you a better example.

Imagine the LAPD must respond because innocent citizens are routinely targeted in random driveby shootings and intimidation by gangs. So, the police go in to arrest the gang members but receive armed resistance. So, they shoot and kill the gang members who are firing on them to avoid being captured. Several innocent people are wounded or killed due to the resistance from the gangs even though the police take all precautions to avoid injuring civilians but the gang members must be stopped.

you have a link plz

Here are two of them for you.


Israeli Militants Poised to Resettle Gaza After Assault

As Israeli troops fight their way into Gaza, scores of determined settlers are prepared to enter in their wake.

Israel's "Operation Cast Lead" is reported to have overwhelming support among the Israeli public, but few are as enthusiastic as the former residents of the Israeli settlements in Gaza. As tens of thousands of Israeli troops descend on Gaza in an apocalyptic frenzy, scores of determined settlers are prepared to enter in their wake.

Settler activists are counting on their historically strong ties to the Israeli military, with some units composed entirely of settlers, to help in their fight. Indeed, some soldiers and reservists currently in Gaza were there three years ago living in cherished settlement communities. On Monday, an article in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz described the bittersweet reactions of soldiers who had lived in Gaza settlements and are now back in uniform, noting, "Some see it as a first step toward returning to their former homes."

The Gaza settlements were dismantled in August 2005 as part of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's disengagement plan. In a single stroke, the Israeli army removed 8,000 people from the Gush Katif settlement bloc in the southwest corner of the Gaza Strip near the Egyptian border and from four smaller settlements in northern and central Gaza.

In spirit, many of the Gaza settlers never left the coveted Palestinian territory on the Mediterranean coast. Despite ample compensation from the Israeli government, many have chosen to live in nearby caravan camps in desert towns between Ashdod and Ashkelon, clustered with families from the same settlement of origin. Most of the settlers didn't pack before they were escorted out of their compounds, not believing that the Israeli government would permanently expel them. Some have posted the road signs identifying their old settlements in their camps.

The evacuees have reportedly suffered from high rates of divorce, drug abuse and other problem behavior. Imbued with messianic zeal, for the last three-and-a-half years, they have been mobilizing to resettle the land they believe is theirs by divine right.

Earlier this year, Haaretz reported on settlers' plans to follow the Israeli army into Gaza. Boaz Haetzni, a leader of the settler movement, explained, "In our estimation the 'big operation' is only a matter of time; we will follow them in. We will not ask for permission from anyone. The [settlement] groups will be ready ... These core groups will do exactly what the group that re-established Kfar Etzion did after 1967. They will return to the lands where they existed in the past and will rebuild them."

Kfar Etzion was the first Israeli settlement established in the West Bank after the end of the Six Day War and is now part of a large bloc of settlements connecting Jerusalem to Hebron.

In August, settlers and their supporters commemorated the third anniversary of the Gaza evacuation at the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem. The event featured music, prayers, testimonials and updates from volunteers assisting the Gush Katif "refugees." A flyer promoting the event highlighted a biblical passage: "And the threefold cord is not easily broken" (Kohelet 4:12), a reference to the strength of the bond tying the Gush Katif settlers to one another and to the support they receive from the broader community of supporters in Israel and abroad.

The program was similar to "A Tribute To Hebron," an event held at the Great Synagogue in late December. This event, organized by www.thelandofisrael.com, was a fundraiser for the Beit Hashalom settlers, who were evicted earlier in the month from their illegally occupied house in the heart of Hebron. The night included live music, comedy sketches and a speech by former Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Danny Ayalon, a prominent leader of the settler movement.

Both events reflect the pattern that has emerged over the last several decades. After Palestinian land is seized by the Israeli army, settlements are established, connected to Israel's electricity, water and security system, and aggressively marketed to potential residents. Today, Israeli settlements and the state security apparatus cover over 40 percent of the West Bank. Nearly half a million Israelis live in settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, all of which are considered illegal under international law.

As with the unilateral disengagement from Gaza, the Israeli government occasionally dismantles overly controversial settlements, amid great fanfare, but new settlements continue to be built and existing ones expanded. In the three years since the state of Israel removed its settlers from Gaza soil, it has authorized the construction of thousands of new housing units for West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements. To make room for these settlements, thousands of Palestinian homes have been demolished, and in East Jerusalem, entire Palestinian neighborhoods are still being cleared. According to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, 19,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished since 1967. All the while, mainstream political elements decry "radical" settlers as violent extremists even as they celebrate their achievements and help establish new colonies.

Israelis differentiate between "economic settlers," those who move to the occupied territories for subsidized housing and a better "quality of life," and "ideological settlers," nationalists who seek to establish a "Greater Israel" from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. But the distinction is overstated. Residents of the large suburban settlements that encircle Jerusalem (Ma'ale Adumim, Pisgat Ze'ev, etc.) are embedded in social networks that include radical leaders from the so-called ideological settlements (Gush Etzion, Kiryat Arba, Hebron and the smaller outposts). And many suburban settlers have an intensely militant outlook, feeling themselves to be under siege just as they view the Gush Katif and Hebron "refugees" as demonized and besieged.

For the Beit Hashalom supporters the mood at the Great Synagogue in late December was jubilant, coming just days after the settlers' zealous stand against the Israeli army and with plenty of time to implement what they refer to as their new "price tag" policy of payback for evacuations carried out by the Israeli army and police.

In Hebron, as elsewhere, the price tag has come in the form of fiery pogroms against Palestinians. According to a recent United Nations report, there has been a surge in Israeli settler violence across the West Bank, with at least 290 incidents of violence against Palestinians documented between January and October 2008.

The increase in violence may be related to the "price tag" policy, but the settlers' strategy reflects nothing new: the price Palestinians have paid throughout Israel's 60-year history is incalculable in economic, social and demographic terms.

Nonetheless, because of their humiliating departure from Gaza and years of displacement, the Gush Katif settlers believe they have paid the greatest price. Not a day seems to go by without media coverage of their plight. On Dec. 31 the Jerusalem Post published an editorial on Hamas rocket attacks by Rachel Saperstein, a settler from Gush Katif who lamented, "From our homes in Gush Katif to cardboard caravillas in a refugee camp to a sewer pipe. We have certainly hit rock bottom." On the same day, Arutz Sheva, a right-wing Internet news site, published an editorial by Nadia Matar that calls for Israel to "free Gaza from its Arab occupation ... and rebuild the 25 beautiful Jewish communities of Gush Katif."

Although government agencies have attempted to move the former residents of Gush Katif to new settlements in the West Bank and the Negev, most have stayed in southern Israel, waiting for their day of return to resurrected Jewish enclaves in the ravaged Gaza Strip.

That day, and the promise of redemption revived by Israel's bloody price tag policy in Gaza, draws closer with each hour of "Operation Cast Lead."



http://www.sott.net/articles/show/172465-Israeli-Militants-Poised-to-Resettle-Gaza-After-Assault

.....................


Last update - 13:08 05/08/2008
Settler group planning to reestablish Gaza bloc
By Nadav Shragai, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Homesh, disengagement

The Homesh First Movement is expected to announce Tuesday that settlement groups are planning to return to settlements in Gush Katif evacuated during the August 2005 disengagement from the Gaza Strip. The core settlement groups hope to return the minute it is acceptable from a security standpoint, explained Boaz Haetzni, one of the leaders of the movement.

Haetzni Haetznitold Haaretz that as soon as the Israel Defense Forces reenters the Gaza Strip, "and in our estimation the 'big operation' is only a matter of time, we will follow them in. We will not ask for permission from anyone. The [settlement] groups will be ready, and this evening we will start an organized sign-up for them. These core groups will do exactly what the group that reestablished Kfar Etzion did after 1967. They will return to the lands where they existed in the past, and will rebuild them," said Haetzni.

Dozens of families who left Netzer Hazani in the Gush Katif as well as dozens more families have already expressed their interest in signing up for the new settlement groups, said Aviel Tokar, the coordinator of the planned group for reestablishing Netzer Hazani. "I was born in Netzer Hazani, the first settlement in Gush Katif, which with the help of God will also be the first settlement to return there. In our home, there is a picture of me as a four-year-old boy presenting [Yitzhak] Rabin with tomatoes from our hothouse. I believe my children will also present the prime minister with tomatoes from the hothouses of the rebuilt Netzer Hazani," said Tokar.

He repeated that the only problem preventing them from returning is security, but the minute the IDF enters the area, even temporarily, his group will simply go and establish the "facts on the ground."

In a gathering planned for Tuesday, the settler leaders will read out a declaration stating their intention to return to both Gaza and the northern West Bank as soon as the security situation allows. The statement also declares the areas belong to the Jewish people, as an unnegotiable divine promise, and are integral to the Land of Israel. "We view the return of Jewish life to those regions as a national mission and divine commandment," declares the statement.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1008454.html
............................................





The first I have no idea about how biased they are. The second is from Haaretz, an Israeli news source.

Note that Haetzni isn't just some loudmouthed dissenter. He is a member of the Likud Party and an MK (Member Knesset)

Hogwash!!!!

Actually Israel as a country has no plans to re-establish
settlements in the Gaza strip at this time. However, in
fact, they have as much claim to the land as the Gazans
and many of the Israelis who lived their lives in the
Gaza strip before they were forced out in 2005 feel as
strongly as any Palestinian that their rights have been
denied to their homes and communities. If anyone has a
valid claim to the land, it is those who live on it in
peace and prosperity respecting their neighbors as the
former Israeli Gazans did.

I believe that those who use their land as a platform for
hate and terrorist attack such as members of Hamas and
Islamic Jihad and Fatah have abused their stewardship of
the land and could reasonably be denied hateful sanctuary there.

Seems like the Palestinians aren't the only ones who use rockets.



Settler arrested in failed rocket attack on Palestinian town
By The Associated Press
Tags: Yitzhar, Israel, West Bank

Police said Sunday they have arrested a settler suspected of involvement in a failed rocket attack on a Palestinian village in the West Bank.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said that police arrested Gilad Herman, a student at a Jewish seminary in the settlement of Yitzhar.

Herman had been wanted for questioning since the attempt last month to launch a home-built rocket at the neighboring village of Burin, but apparently had gone into hiding.

Rosenfeld said Herman was arrested at Yitzhar on Saturday, in connection with the house-to-house search that took place about a month ago for weapons.

The projectile failed to reach its target and nobody was harmed, although the sound of the blast triggered a sweep of the area by Israeli security forces who initially believed a Palestinian attack on settlers was in progress.


(article continues)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1001565.html

..............................


Sunday, June 22, 2008
Israeli settlers launch Qassam projectile at Palestinian village



Bethlehem - Ma'an - Palestinians are not the only ones producing homemade projectiles: Israeli settlers now also have Qassam rockets, according to the Hebrew daily newspaper Ma'ariv.


On Friday the newspaper published details of Israeli settlers from the Yitzhar settlement near the West Bank city of Nablus launching projectiles at a nearby Palestinian village.

Two weeks ago a religious school student made a Qassam rocket and launched it at a nearby Palestinian village, but it landed in an open area, the newspaper added.

The newspaper confirmed that the student, along with the school's headmaster, was detained on Thursday evening and is being questioned over the incident.


http://xiaodongpeople.blogspot.com/2008/06/israeli-settlers-launch-qassam.html




Now this just begs the question. Could some of the rockets fired 'at Israel by Palestinians' come from Israeli settlers pulled out of the settlements? A way to get Israel to go back into Gaza perhaps?

thousands of rockets launched indiscriminately at
Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah and you choose to
discuss one lone failed attempt by a frustrated
Israeli to retaliate...



OH C'MON NOW



I might add that the Israeli police apprehend such
individuals whereas Hamas police assist in launching
the rockets from Gaza...

Israel never agreed to the UN mandate, even though it was weighted unfairly in their favor.
They declared Independence and began committing Genocide. Killing whole villages. Men, women, and children and stealing their land.
It wasn't until then that other Arab nations came to the rescue, but they came without their full strength and were defeated.
While the fighting was going on the UN sent a mediator to try and stop the fighting. A man who had helped many Jews in Nazi Germany escape death.

This man Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden was only trying to get an agreement to Partition the land fairly for both sides and stop the fighting.

"""""""""""""According to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, 19,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished since 1967""""""""""""""


history of 6 day war of 1967

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/

arabs lost that land in that conflict thus irrelavant

Jewish settlers owned only 9% of the land in Palestine when the UN Mandated land partition was drawn up.

Now who has more rite to what???

Man,, the incorrect propaganda never stops.

isreal by world mandate

if world mandate does not matter then it is all irrelevant because isreal conquered the area by force

so either way it belongs to isreal

Unbelievably one-sided!!!

What you just posted is a complete lie. Israel immediately accepted the UN mandate, it was the Palestinians who rejected the UN mandate. That is a historic fact. I have reported this post for your racist propaganda. I doubt the moderators will do anything, but I think that everyone who is offended by this sort of racist propaganda should report this and any similar posts that are made.

when land owned by your family is given to indian tribe from are the land is in then you can try to tell others that their land belongs to someone else