I'll stop for now. But remember there are many others......

When the thread was started it was about the near impossibility of bringing either side before a tribunal for war crimes not just Israel!!!!!

Since it seems that Israel is also being 'tried' here for the past then in fairness the other side must also be presented.

..........................................................

THIRTY-NINE Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry.

Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc.

IN ARAB countries more than 100 Jews were also massacred and synagogues were burned in Aleppo and Aden, driving thousands of Jews from their homes.

Back in Palestine many small kibbutzim were subjected to attacks, including Gvulot, Ben-Shemen, Holon, Safed, Bat Yam and Kfar Yavetz - all in December. In January and February, it was the turn of Rishon Lezion, Yehiam, Mishmar Hayarden, Tirat Zvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein Hanatziv, Magdiel, Mitzpe Hagalil and Ma'anit.

In March and April these attacks culminated with an assault on Hartuv by 400 Arabs based in the village of Ishwa and an attack on Kfar Darom by members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Arab attackers also bombed The Palestine Post in February. In March, the Jewish Agency, the Solel Boneh building in Haifa and an Egged bus were also bombed.

SOME OF today's scholars prefer to present every massacre of Jews as a "response" to some Jewish deed, and to portray as a "myth" the very idea that Israel struggled desperately for existence in 1948.

But it was no myth.

The fact is 1,256 Jews were killed in five months. Even before the first Arab villages were captured in April, 924 Jews had already been killed. Ilan Pappe should have pondered what might have been if those Jews had not been slaughtered.


http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=1353


Killing of medical personnel....


Hadassah medical convoy massacre - The Attack

On April 13, a convoy of 10 vehicles, mostly consisting of unarmed Jewish doctors, nurses, medical students and lecturers set off for the hospital in the early morning. At approximately 9:45, the leading vehicle was hit by a mine and the convoy came under attack by Arab irregular forces. Five of the vehicles were able to flee, but five others, including two buses and an ambulance, were unable to escape the ambush and were subject to constant machine gun fire from the surrounding Arabs, despite passengers waving a white flag. After the buses began to leak gasoline, they were set on fire by Molotov cocktails (petrol bombs) thrown by the irregulars, their inhabitants still inside.

For nearly seven hours, the British refused to intervene, and failed to even bring Jacques de Reynier, the Red Cross representative in Jerusalem, to the scene to negotiate a cease-fire. The British also attempted to stop the Haganah from mounting a rescue operation, and the eventual attempts by the Palmach (an arm of the Haganah) to rescue the convoy were unsuccessful. The attack continued for over six hours before the British finally stopped it at around 4:30. Altogether approximately 77 Jews were killed by gunfire or were burnt when several vehicles were set alight.


http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Hadassah_medical_convoy_massacre_-_The_Attack/id/5109158


A history of Gush Etzion and the Massacre of Kfar Etzion

http://www.zionism-israel.com/Gush_Etzion_Massacre.htm


Haifa Refinery Riots
December 1947

http://www.mideastweb.org/refriots.htm


Arab assaults on the Jews of Palestine following the 1947 UN partition plan

http://www.beyondimages.info/b206.html

..............................


Just some of the Massacres of Jews.

However..regarding the GAZA CONFLICT WHICH JUST ENDED IN CEASE-FIRE ..... What are the chances of either side being brought before a tribunal?

It is very difficult to condemn Israel for 'indiscriminate' use of force when civilians willingly form human shields around what may be potential targets.

There is the possibility that Israel will be found to have used WP in areas it shouldn't have.



These are the things to look at.

If brought before an International Tribunal the historical acts of either side won't be in consideration as they are not a direct part of the action that just ended. They may be root causes for what is happening but not direct, integral actions of what just transpired.


Since no-one will trust / believe an Israeli investigation of itself or an American investigation, the Israelis will not accept an internal one by Palestine and neither will accept one done by the United Nations or EU then what?

ISRAELI VICTIMS OF TERRORISM

Terror Victims September 2000 - November 2001 Terror Victims

Islamic Terrorism David Biri - Sept 27, 2000 Islamic Terrorism
Yossi Tabaja - Sept 29, 2000
Yosef Madhat - Oct 1, 2000
Wichlav Zalsevsky - Oct 2, 2000
Max Hazan - Oct 2, 2000
Hillel Lieberman - Oct 8, 2000
Terror Victims Yosef Avrahami - Oct 12, 2000 Terror Victims
Vadim Norzhich - Oct 12, 2000
Rabbi Binyamin Herling - Oct 19, 2000
Marik Gavrilov - Oct 28, 2000
Eish-Kodesh Gilmore - Oct 30, 2000
Amos Machlouf - Oct 30, 2000
David-Hen Cohen - Nov 1, 2000
Shlomo Adshina - Nov 1, 2000
Amir Zohar - Nov 1, 2000
Ayelet Hashahar Levy - Nov 2, 2000
Hanan Levy - Nov 2, 2000
Noa Dahan - Nov 8, 2000
Shahar Vekret - Nov 10, 2000
Avner Shalom - Nov 11, 2000
Sarah Leisha - Nov 13, 2000
Elad Wallenstein - Nov 13, 2000
Amit Zaneh - Nov 13, 2000
Gabi Zaghouri - Nov 13, 2000
Baruch (Snir) Flum - Nov 18, 2000
Sharon ****oubi - Nov 18, 2000
Miriam Amitai - Nov 20, 2000
Gavriel Biton - Nov 20, 2000
Itamar Yefet - Nov 21, 2000
Shoshana Reis - Nov 22, 2000
Meir Bahrame - Nov 22, 2000
Edward Matchnik - Nov 23, 2000
Terror Victims Samar Hussein - Nov 23, 2000 Terror Victims
Sharon Arameh - Nov 24, 2000
Ariel Jeraffi - Nov 24, 2000
Rina Didovsky - Dec 8, 2000
Eliyahu Ben-Ami - Dec 8, 2000
Tal Gordon - Dec 8, 2000
Eliahu Cohen - Dec 21, 2000
Gad Marasha - Dec 28, 2000
Yonatan Vermeulen - Dec 28, 2000
Binyamin Zeev Kahane - Dec 31, 2000
Talia Kahane - Dec 31, 2000
Ron Tzalah - Jan 14, 2001
Ofir Rahum - Jan 17, 2001
Motti Dayan - Jan 23, 2001
Etgar Zeitouny - Jan 23, 2001
Akiva Pashkos - Jan 25, 2001
Arye Hershkowitz - Jan 29, 2001
Lior Attiah - Feb 1, 2001
Shmuel Gillis - Feb 1, 2001
Rujayah Salameh - Feb 5, 2001
Tzachi Sasson - Feb 11, 2001
David Iluz - Feb 14, 2001
Yasmin Karisi - Feb 14, 2001
Rachel Levy - Feb 14, 2001
Ofir Magidish - Feb 14, 2001
Alexander Manevitz - Feb 14, 2001
Kochava Polanski - Feb 14, 2001
Simcha ****rit - Feb 14, 2001
Julie Weiner - Feb 14, 2001
Mordechai Shefer - Feb 26, 2001
Claude Knap - Mar 1, 2001
Naftali Dean - Mar 4, 2001
Yevgenya Malchin - Mar 4, 2001
Shlomit Ziv - Mar 4, 2001
Baruch Cohen - Mar 19, 2001
Shalhevet Pass - Mar 26, 2001
Naftali Lanzkorn - Mar 28, 2001
Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat - Mar 28, 2001
Ya'akov Krenschel - Apr 1, 2001
Danny Darai - Apr 2, 2001
Stanislav Sandomirsky - Apr 21, 2001
Mario Goldin - Apr 22, 2001
Shlomo Elmakias - Apr 28, 2001
Assaf Hershkovitz - May 1, 2001
Arieh Agranionic - May 8, 2001
Ya'acov (Kobi) Mandell - May 9, 2001
Yosef (Yossi) Ish-Ran - May 9, 2001
Constantin Straturula - May 10, 2001
Virgil Martinesc - May 10, 2001
Idit Mizrahi - May 15, 2001
Tirza Polonsky - May 18, 2001
Vladislav Sorokin - May 18, 2001
Yulia Tratiakova - May 18, 2001
Miriam Waxman - May 18, 2001
David Yarkoni - May 18, 2001
Yair Nebenzahl - May 18, 2001
Asher Iluz - May 23, 2001
Yosef Alfasi - May 25, 2001
Gilad Zar - May 29, 2001
Sarah Blaustein - May 29, 2001
Esther Alvan - May 29, 2001
Zvi Shelef - May 31, 2001
Marina Borokovsky - June 1, 2001
Roman Dezanshvili - June 1, 2001
Ilya Gutman - June 1, 2001
Anya Kazachkov - June 1, 2001
Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir - June 1, 2001
Aleksei Lupalu - June 1, 2001
Mariana Madbaneko - June 1, 2001
Terror Victims Irina Nefminiyashachi - June 1, 2001 Terror Victims
Yelena Nelimov - June 1, 2001
Yulia Nelimov - June 1, 2001
Raisa Nimrovsky - June 1, 2001
Diez (Dani) Normanov - June 1, 2001
Simona Rodin - June 1, 2001
Ori Shahar - June 1, 2001
Liana Sakiyan - June 1, 2001
Maria Tagilchev - June 1, 2001
Irena Usdachi - June 1, 2001
Roman Gurokhovsky - June 2, 2001
Yael-Yulia Sklianik - June 2, 2001
Jan Bloom - June 3, 2001
Yehuda Chaim Shocham - June 11, 2001
Gur Pzipokatsatakis - June 13, 2001
Doron Zisserman - June 18, 2001
Danny Yehuda - June 18, 2001
Terror Victims Yevgenia Dorfman - June 19, 2001Terror Victims
Ilya Krivitz - June 21, 2001
Shoshana Ben-Yishai - Nov 4, 2001
Menashe (Meni) Regev - Nov 4, 2001
Capt. (Res.) Eyal Sela - Nov 6, 2001
Hadas Abutbul - Nov 9, 2001
Aharon Ussishkin - Nov 11, 2001
St.-Sgt. Barak Madmon - Nov 24, 2001
Noam Gozovsk - Nov 27, 2001
Etty Fahima - Nov 27, 2001






All the images in the world are not a discussion. There are images of kids, women etc in Israel who are victims as well. Those images aren't a discussion either.

All the loud anti-Israel cartoons in the world
will not cover the ugliness of what Hamas, Al-Qaida,
Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, and Fatah perpetrate in the
perversion of the name of Allah creating only misery
for themselves and humankind.

I note that no one on this thread NO ONE...
is disputing the crimes against humanity perpetrated by Hamas.

But in a wild, ranting effort to unjustly malign
Israel the hypocrisy is only MAGNIFIED...

Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism since September 2000


1,177 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000.



Note: This list also includes 18 Israelis killed abroad in terror attacks directed specifically against Israeli targets, and 3 American diplomatic personnel killed in Gaza.

Not listed are 9 IDF soldiers killed during the ground operation against Hamas terror in Gaza (27 Dec 2008 - 18 Jan 2009).



http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

Of course Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Quida, and other Muslim extremists are terrorists. I believe I already mentioned that I was born a Muslim in the Middle East, and I have since denounced that hateful violent religion to become an atheist, a humanist. All I'm saying is that Israel is murdering lot of innocent Palestinian civilians in order to get back at a handful of those Hamas terrorists. And that can never be justified.

Also, if the Israelis were to end the unlawful occupation of Palestine, pack their bags and move to Florida, that wouldn't be so bad either.

You did see where I had posted that Hamas calls to civilians to form human shields and they willingly go?

That is one of the questions will have to be answered. Did the civilians get caught by an illegal usage of weapons or did they actually form human shields?

Did Israel give sufficient warning?

Were people sent to 'safe haven' only to be shelled / bombed?

Did Israel not care, pay attention or did Hamas prevent civilians from leaving?

Can there be an investigation acceptable to all sides?

Finally, is there anyone who would, could bring any party found guilty before a tribunal?


Cartoons and Anti-Israel pictures are not a discussion. They are a rant against Israel. If the people of Palestine depend at all on supporters outside to help them win an independent nation of their own and all that is offered is cartoons and pictures then they may as well give up and get Isreali citizenship right now. Pictures shock...Discussion of ideas, thoughts changes minds and brings forth new ideas.

The OP wants the UN to start playing war tribunal now, after 70-80 years of crimes.

Fact- Israel became a state, not just by terrorism against Palestinians. A fact that he is willing to forgive past Israeli PM's for.

PM's like Gurion, Sharon, Begin, and Shamir who took major parts in the terror used to create Israel.

Terror not just against the Palestinians but also against British civilians, policemen, soldiers, and UN envoys who merely tried to achieve a Peace from the cycle of terror that Israel used to illegally form their state in a land they stole from people of another culture.

A land in which they have no rite to other than 2000 yr old stories in the bible.

No, he would forgive these Israeli terrorists, but fail to recognize Hamas as the elected Gov of Palestine, and drag them into court.

Even though they are no worse than the Israeli gov in power today, and their crimes no less horrendous.

Now after all this time he wants to begin trying people for war crimes.
A little late dont ya think?

The King David Massacre:

The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946 (Palestine), which resulted in the deaths of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an act of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest Jewish political authorities in Palestine-- the Jewish Agency and its head David-Ben-Gurion.
According to Yitshaq Ben-Ami, a Palestinian Jew who spent 30 years in exile after the establishment of Israel investigating the crimes of the “ruthless clique heading the internal Zionist movement,”
The Irgun had conceived a plan for the King David attack early in 1946, but the green light was given only on July first. According to Dr. Sneh, the operation was personally approved by Ben-Gurion, from his self-exile in Europe. Sadeh, the operations officer of the Haganah, and Giddy Paglin, the head of the Irgun operation under Menachem Begin agreed that thirty-five minutes advance notice would give the British time enough to evacuate the wing, without enabling them to disarm the explosion.
The Jewish Agency’s motive was to destroy all evidence the British had gathered proving that the terrorist crime waves in Palestine were not merely the actions of “fringe” groups such as the Irgun and Stern Gang, but were committed in collusion with the Haganah and Palmach groups and under the direction of the highest political body of the Zionist establishment itself, namely the Jewish Agency.
That so many innocent civilian lives were lost in the King David massacre is a normal part of the pattern of the history of Zionist outrages: A criminal act is committed, allegedly by an isolated group, but actually under the direct authorization of the highest Zionist authorities, whether of the Jewish Agency
during the Palestine Mandate or of the Government of Israel thereafter.

The following is a statement made in the House of Commons by then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee:
On July 22, 1946, one of the most dastardly and cowardly crimes in recorded history took place. We refer to the blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.
Ninety-two persons lost their lives in that stealthy attack, 45 were injured, among whom there were many high officials, junior officers and office personnel, both men and women. The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters. The attack was made on 22 July at about 12 o’clock noon when offices are usually in full swing. The attackers, disguised as milkmen, carried the explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement of the Hotel and ran away.

The Chief Secretary for the Government of Palestine, Sir John Shaw, declared in a broadcast: “As head of the Secretariat, the majority of the dead and wounded were my own staff, many of whom I have known personally for eleven years. They are more than official colleagues. British, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Armenians; senior officers, police, my orderly, my chauffeur, messengers, guards, men and
women-- young and old-- they were my friends.

“No man could wish to be served by a more industrious, loyal and honest group of ordinary decent people. Their only crime was their devoted, unselfish and impartial service to Palestine and its people. For this they have been rewarded by cold-blooded mass murder.”

Although members of the Irgun Z’vai Leumi took responsibility for this crime, yet they also made it public later that they obtained the consent and approval of the Haganah Command, and it follows, that of the Jewish Agency.

The King David Hotel massacre shocked the conscience of the civilizedworld. On July 23, Anthony Eden, leader of the British opposition Conservative
Party, posed a question in the House of Commons to Prime Minister Atlee of the Labor Party, asking “the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the bomb outrage at the British Headquarters in Jerusalem.” The Prime Minister responded:
“…It appears that, after exploding a small bomb in the street, presumably as a diversionary measure-- this did virtually no damage-- a lorry drove up to the tradesmen’s entrance of the King David Hotel and the occupants, after holding up the staff at pistol point, entered the kitchen premises carrying a number of milk cans. At some stage of the proceedings, they shot and seriously wounded a British soldier who attempted to interfere with them. All available information so far is to the effect that they were Jews. Somewhere in the basement of the hotel they planted bombs which went off shortly afterwards. They appear to have made good their escape.
“Every effort is being made to identify and arrest the perpetrators of this outrage. The work of rescue in the debris, which was immediately organized, still continues. The next-of-kin of casualties are being notified by telegram as soon as accurate information is available. The House will wish to express their
profound sympathy with the relatives of the killed and with those injured in this dastardly outrage.”

NASER AL-DIN MASSACRE:
13-14 April 1948(Palestine) : a contingent of Lehi and Irgon entered this village (near Tiberias) entered the village on the night of 13 April dressed as Arab fighters. Upon their entrance to the village the people went out to greet them, the terrorists met them with fire, killing every single one of them. Only 40 people survived. All the houses of the village were raised to the ground.

THE TANTURA MASSACRE:
May 15, 1948 (Palestine): "From testimonies and information I got from Jewish and Arab witnesses and from soldiers who were there, at least 200 people from the village of Tantura were killed by Israeli troops...

"From the numbers, this is definitely one of the biggest massacres," Teddy Katz an Israeli historian said Tantura, near Haifa in northern Palestine, had 1,500 residents at the time. It was later demolished to make way for a parking lot for a nearby beach and the Nahsholim kibbutz, or cooperative farm.

Fawzi Tanji, now 73 and a refugee at a camp in the West Bank, is from Tantura he said:
I was 21 years old then.They took a group of 10 men,lined them up against the cemetery wall and killed them.Then they brought another group, killed them, threw away the bodies and so on, Tanji said. I was waiting for my turn to die in cold blood as I saw the men drop in front of me.

Katz said other Palestinians were killed inside their homes and in other parts of the village. At one point, he said, soldiers shot at anything that moved.


Important phrases here-and from soldiers who were there

Teddy Katz an Israeli historian

BEIT DARAS MASSACRE:
21 May 1948(Palestine): after a number of failed attempts to occupy this village, the Zionists mobilized a large contingent and surrounded the village. The people of Beit Daras decided that women and children should leave. As women and children left the village they were met by the Zionist army who massacred them despite the fact that they could see they were women and children fleeing the fighting.

Your characterization of the plight of the Gazans in this conflict is wrong. They were not murdered by Israelis. They were caught in crossfire when Hamas used them as human shields and this is a crucial distinction.

Hamas is certainly not a handful of terrorists. Given that it is universally acknowledged that they perpetrate crimes against humanity as a policy, the question really is:

How does Israel or the world stop them? It requires armed confrontation if they will not stop their terrorist attacks under ceasefire conditions. Hamas has repeatedly stated that they will not stop until Israel is destroyed and their actions support this. So, their fate is that of the Taliban and Al-Qaida etc.

One must not be an apologist for Hamas' atrocities.

Glenn, rather than hiding behind your thinly veiled support for your underdog (Palestinian terrorists)and the weak points you are so desperately pushing, why don't you man up and admit your hatred of the Jews?

The Diary of former Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharett is a major source of evidence for a conscious policy of deliberate, unprovoked cross-border attacks, in which advantage was taken of superior military power and a servile western propaganda machine, with the intent of destabilizing neighboring states and provoking them into military responses. Sharett was a footdragger in these enterprises, often shaken by the ruthlessness of the military establishment-"the long chain of false incidents and hostilities we have invented, and so many clashes we have provoked;" the "narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness of our military leaders" [who] "seem to presume that the State of Israel may-or even must-behave in the realm of international relations according to the laws of the jungle." Sharett himself referred to this long effort as a "sacred terrorism."

An article titled "Terror" in He Khazit (The Front, a Lehi underground newspaper) argued as follows:

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.

THE DAHMASH MOSQUE MASSACRE:
11 July 1948 (Palestine): after the Israeli 89th Commando Battalion lead by Moshe Dayan occupied Lydda, the Israelis told Arabs through loudspeakers that if they went into a certain mosque they would be safe. In retaliation for a hand grenade attack after the surrender that killed several Israeli soldiers, 80-100 Palestinians were massacred in the mosque, their bodies lay decomposing for 10 days in the mid-summer heat. The mosque still stands abandoned today. This massacre spread fear and panic among the Arab population of Lydda and Ramle, who were then ordered to march out of these towns after they were stripped of all personal belonging by Israeli soldiers. Yetzak Rabin, Brigade Commander then says: - There was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march ten to fifteen miles to the point where they met up with the legion-. Most of the 60,000 inhabitants of Lyda and Ramble came to refugee camps near Ramallah, around 350 lost their lives on the way through dehydration and son stroke. Many survived by drinking their own urine. The conditions in the refugee camps were to claim more lives.

DAWAYMA MASSACRE:
On October 29 Palestine): the Israeli army brutally massacred about 100 women and children, precipitating a massive flight of people from that village on the western side of the Hebron mountains. Mr. Walid Khalidi, author of All That Remains, says that the Palestinian inhabitants at Dawayma faced one of the larger Israel massacres, though today it is among the least well-known.
The following are excerpts of a description of the massacre published in the
Israeli daily ‘Al ha Mishmar, quoted in All That Remains:

The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house
without dead…one commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain
house…and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused…the commander then ordered his men to put in the old women and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a woman and then shot her…

A former mukhtar (head of a village) of Dawayma interviewed in 1984 by the Israeli daily Hadashot, also quoted by Mr. Khalidi, offered another description:

The people fled, and everyone they saw in the houses, they shot and killed. They
also killed people in the streets. They came and blew up my house, in the presence of eye-witnesses…the moment that the tanks came and opened fire, I left the village immediately. At about half-past ten, two tanks passed the Darawish Mosque. About 75 old people were there, who had come early for Friday prayers. They gathered in the mosque to pray. They were all killed.

About 35 families had been hiding in caves outside Dawayma, according to the
mukhtar, and when the Israeli forces discovered them they were told to come out, line up, and begin walking. “And as they started to walk, they were shot by machine guns from two sides…we sent people there that night, who collected the bodies, put them into a cistern, and buried them,” the mukhtar told the Israeli daily.