there ya go

I would agree with Lilith though that it really comes down to personal accountability and people need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves. Enough with the gender wars. Those threads always lead to arguing.

I am convinced that every time I hear an angry man or an angry woman spitting fire and venom over their ex, if I were to take that ex and sit them down and get their side of the story, it would cast them in the same horrific light as the villain. You have to take all that crap with a grain of salt because its an emotionally based response and the person is seeking sympathy in their time of pain.

Krimsa, agreed.

I once had a guy ask me why I was divorced.... I replied that our roles in the marriage were that he was a lazy cheater and I was an emasculating nagger.... And that I'd really learned from it.

The response was dead silence. He then said.... Wow. I don't think I've ever heard anyone not blame the other person totally. He of course, blamed his ex. Over and out, I was.....

My ex also blamed me for the break up of our marriage, he claims I did not "keep a watchful eye on him"..... Wait a minute! I am sure we had TWO children........

You are so right. The thing all a$$holes, jerks, b!otches, and narcissists have in common is that they're all wounded. Still, we're all accountable or need to learn to be.

What separates a successful, functioning (insert term of endearment from above here) from one who purposely or inadvertently harms others is awareness, having a "working" moral compass, and choosing "to do the right thing" moment by moment, even when it is not familiar and may be very difficult.

Learning to be okay to "sit with" those negative and uncomfortable feelings is a monumental task, to be sure.

For those that take the higher road and genuinely start acting on positive change instead of just paying it lip service, they will soon learn that its usually not the more pleasant road. They are going to make embarrassing and painful mistakes a long the way, but the important thing is to go easy on themselves, forgive, lay off the self blame, and realize that it is a life long process. Its not something that is going to happen overnight. There will be plenty of backslides along the way. Its about learning to live life on life's terms. Its also about learning to be less self-absorbed and intellectualizing, but actually doing something about it.

It is a lesson in humility. Something a few of us, including me, can do well to learn. Yeah, I'm scared. Yeah, I can't do it alone. Yeah, I keep fvcking it up each and every day; but, someday, I'm gonna get it right. ....With a little help from others that care. With willingness and discipline I need to learn. I'm going to do it because I know that something within me feels that I will, even though I understand and accept that there are no guarantees.

This said, it still feels like a baby deer learning to walk....

When I think about various relationships and I wonder if we havn't gotten sold on unrealistic ideals for each other and that causes a lot of the stress and resentment.

People who once would have thought they were a rageing success to have three square meals a day, a roof over their head, a family, a job, and if you were really lucky a few things to make it comfortable now see themselves as dismal failures. If you can't "just do it all" you have to worry about "looseing it all".

I think high standards are important in some areas I wonder if we are not expecting so much that people are just exhausted?

I believe things go bad due to loss of respect from the other person failing to meet unrealistic and UNKNOWN expectations.

If a person does not know what is expected of them, how can they meet them? Are they even reasonable? Premarital counseling is supposed to take care of this area...

But honestly, arrogant men seem to be oh so capable and in control....

Yes, they are sexy and hot. Some of them are capable and in control. Honestly, I need a little arrogance in a partner; operative words being "a little".

I don't know a whole lot of people that are open to counseling or becoming self aware. Frankly, it can be quite a daunting task for most.

Communication is key. But what do you do when one is communicating and the other isn't listening - or is not capable of listening - for whatever sorry reason? Sometimes you've got to know when to just cut your losses and run. That's not an easy task for some of us - again, for whatever sorry reason.

And some of us keep getting drawn to the oh so irresistable types mentioned in the title of the OP. Making the same mistakes over and over - and then beating ourselves up because of it later on. The repetition compulsion. That only serves to perpetuate the cycle, based on self-loathing, shame, guilt. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results.

A$$holes and jerks oftentimes attract the flip side of their coins like magnets. (I know I attract them and they attract me.) We tend to be drawn to each other unconsciously. (There is a language there - a "knowing" that only we seem to speak or understand.) When things go wrong, it is easy to try to put all the blame on the other. Its too uncomfortable to look at those early deficits within ourselves. Excruciating, at times.

Much of the time, the motivation of both parties is misunderstood or unknown. They become falsely accused. So, the question becomes, what do we do about it. Each one of us is accountable to ourselves, even in knowing that we cannot control the world and people around us.

We're attracted to narcissists or a$$holes or jerks, be they male or female. Hell, I know I often am. Its in the hard-wiring and sometimes patterns can't be changed easily, if at all. (....brings to mind the Serenity Prayer) Some of them are bad apples, to be sure.

Some are not. Some are decent, caring, successful,admirable folks who oftentimes can make the very best of parents (if they can only get over their fear of doing the same - myself included!). How do we help them help themselves?

I don't have the answers. Help!

We need Lily0923. She says something like they need motivation, tools and something else....

Cool. Sometimes we all need a little kick in the pants to get us going. To knock us out of our denial or rationalization when nothing else does.

You know, I finally figured out why some of us have "rubbed each other the wrong way" in the past. I realized it by reading a thread yesterday. Its because we "have been there" or have had similar experiences that we beat ourselves up over. We are too hard on ourselves and sometimes it is easier to pick on that trait that needs a fixin' in someone else than it is to recognize it in our very selves.

It can be really irritating to see it in another or to be able to see what another cannot see and feel helpless to do anything about it. It can even trigger our old hurts. We sometimes project those onto others unfairly. ....But its okay. We have empathy and we realize that life is a learning process.

did someone want me I saw the topic

I find if I post my opinion I get jumped on a lot... maybe that is why. After all, I mean very little of what I post to be directed at anyone yet I'm often taken personally.

but you are too cute to get mad with

I'm a victim of that, too.

Oh my God! I'm a VICTIM!!

No victims allowed in this thread, bub.

never could stand a momma's boy

Haha.. Lex. Posting this thread makes me want to get into an argument with you sometime.

I hope we can find something controversial to disagree upon.

I've been trying to poke some holes in the stereotypes over the past few days -- just to see if anybody notices -- and, surprisingly, they have....!

Not that I expect anything to really change because of it, but it sure beats reading another "nice guy" thread.