You obviously didn't understand what CS Lewis wrote.

First, your two quotes are completely out of context. The part you agree with is the conclusion of the chapter! You agree with his summary of all his thoughts, but you reject one of his arguments.

You also missed this:



People have always agreed on what is right or wrong, but they have different opinions of who should be treated right and wrong. Some people believe they have the right to kill other people, but they feel that nobody has the right to kill them. Such people believe that they deserve to be treated right and everyone else should be treated wrong. An isolated tribe in the Amazon might kill all outsiders, but they don't allow their tribe members to just kill each other. They disagree on who should be treated right (not killed), but they do not believe that killing is right (because if it was right, then it would be right to kill anyone).

You obviously looked for anything you could attack in "Mere Christianity" and blindly went after it. Unfortunately, you will find that CS Lewis already thought of your objections and refuted them. For anyone to so arrogantly and flippantly try to refute this book is absolute foolishness. CS Lewis was an atheist for longer than you have been. CS Lewis was a scholar and a deep thinker and you think that you can reject his work based on your superficial understand of it?

Since you got the quotes out of order and obviously didn't read the supporting material, I can summarize that you simply skimmed the book looking for quotes you could disagree with. Your objections to the book are hasty rationalizations with which you support your bigotry and hatred of Christianity.

This is the most absurd statement you can possible make Spider.

It's crystal clear that humans do not all agree on what is absolutely Right or Wrong.

A perfect example is same gender love. It's obvious that all humans do not agree that this is absolutely Right or Wrong.

So to claim that people have always agreed on what is right or wrong is utterly absurd and obvioulsy wrong.

Same is true or premarital intimacy, and a myriad of other issues.

Even Christians don't agree with each other one precisely what is Right or Wrong and that's the reason there are so many denomination. That's the reason that the Protestants protested against Catholicism.




I put the quotes out of order on purpose because that best suited my communication purposes. There's no need to keep them in the order they were in the article.

You accusation that I merely skimmed the book is totally false and unwarranted, I read every words of the first 6 chapters.

Finally, it's all for naught anyway. The bottom line is still the bottom line.

It's crystal clear that everyone does not agree on what is absolutely Right or Wrong. We wouldn't have hotly debated politics if everyone was in unanimous agreement with what is absolutely Right or Wrong.

That was Lewis' main thesis and the foundation for all his arguments, and clearly you're trying to support that same lame thesis. Lewis made absolutely no convincing logical arguments to support his conjecture that it seemed to him that there ought to be an absolute right or wrong.

Even the example he gave of some guy taking his seat on a bus was extremely lame. Since when do people own seats on a bus? If he wasn't sitting in it at the time how is the other person supposed to know that the seat was "his"? Clearly the man has psychological problems thinking that he somehow owns the world and everyone else should be aware of it. He would truly benefit from some lessons in Zen Buddhism.

He has a really ego-centric idea of what is Right or Wrong. And I didn't even bother quoting the bus seat episode. It was too lame to even warrant comment.

He totally side-steps the important issues

When confronted with the witch burning that were done in the name of the Bible, Lewis just passes it off by saying that we no longer believe in witches today!

Well, the Bible believes in witches!!!

So what kind of a lame explanation was that? All he was truly saying is that we should no longer believe in the Bible today! Yet that's what he's going to go forward to suggest that we should do!

The man should be committed to an insane asylum.

His only reason for trying to claim that we should believe in the Bible is because he believes that everyone agrees on what is absolutely right and absolutely wrong. But he never made is case on that. Plus there are billions of examples of people who disagree on what is absolutely Right or Wrong. Even Christians themselves don't agree! And they've proven that by the break up of Catholicism and Protestantism and the further rebellions of the protestants to continue to protest against each other.

That's why there are so many different denominations of Protestantism. You'll never get a Free Methodist to agree with a Southern Baptist. You'll never get an Amish Christian to agree with any Christian who has accepted modern technology!

The proof that Lewis' arguments are totally absurd lies within the very religion that he is trying to support. Christians don't even agree with each other on what is absolutely Right or Wrong.

It's an utterly lame argument with nothing to support it and everything to show it's false

Moreover, even if we were to believe that all humans agree on what is absolutely Right or Wrong why would that point to the Bible? Just because the biblical God was supposed to have absolute laws? What about the Koran and the Torah, they also have absolute laws!

Moreover, even Eastern Mystics believe that all humans have an innate sense of what's Right or Wrong - the only difference there is that they understand that Right or Wrong is contextual and what's Right for me may not be Right for you and vice versa. Thus their understanding of this is more in line with the truth of human nature.

Lewis' is trying to argue that the Bible must be true because he believes in absolute Right and Wrong. But that's a lame argument for the Bible anyway, especially for Lewis to be making because he confesses that he no longer believes in witches. Well, the bible DOES!

So what is Lewis' truly doing? He's a Salad Bowl Christian tying to preserve Jesus as his Savior by just taking what he thinks might taste good and rejecting the rest. But there you go! He's doing precisely what Eastern Mysticism says he will do. - (i.e. He's just doing his own thing)

His arguments are lame and don't hold any water.

And there is no such thing as absolute Right or Wrong that all humans agree on. That is obvious in both religion and politics.

It's utterly insane to claim that all humans agree on what is absolutely Right or Wrong. Clearly they don't. Just open your eyes and look around!

Lewis is living in a world of self-delusions, as are you if you believe that everyone agrees on what is absolutely Right or Wrong. They don't. Wake up and smell the roses!

Reality is not like your religious delusions.

People have never agreed on what's Right or Wrong in any absolute sense.

Some people feel that capital punishment is Right, others feel that it's Wrong.

And you'll even find Christians on both sides of that issue!

It's crystal clear that Lewis' premise is false.

But yet here you are trying to argue that he's Right.

Clearly neither you, nor Lewis, can show why anyone should believe something that is contrary to what we see in human nature every day!

The evidence against your claim that all humans agree on what's Right or Wrong is all around us, and profoundly displayed by they myriad of sects and denominations of Christianity itself.

The proof is in the pudding. People do not all agree on what is Right or Wrong.

That's a given fact you can take to the bank.

Clearly I understood his position quite well.

He is claiming that all humans agree on what is absolutely Right or Wrong.

That's the foundation of his thesis.

My position is the following:

1. His explanations for his positions are lame.

2. Human behavior in the real world does not support this premises. And the many demonination of Christianity is one of the most vivid examples that even Christians themselves don't agree on the same moral values in the details.

4. Even if his premise were true it wouldn't point to the Bible as being the absolute word of God.

5. Lewis himself confesses to not believing in witches. The Bible states clearly as a commandment from God himself: Exodus 22:3 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

Clearly C. S. Lewis does not believe the Bible. And his argument that all humans know what is absolutely Right and Wrong as an argument to support that this book that he doesn't even beleive in is the word of God is utterly asburd.

James,

On Homosexuality...everybody agrees that love is good, right? But they don't all agree on whom one should love. Some men love women, some love other men and some love goats. Love is accepted as being "right", but the object of love is disagreed upon. ALL PEOPLE BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS ARE RIGHT AND WRONG.

Well, I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say here.

Are you saying that eveyone agrees that love is "Right" but not eveyone will agree on the objects of love?

To begin with, this argument would deny the Bible anyway because clearly the Bible speaks in terms of objects of love.

Therefore the Bible would need to be rejected by your very argument.

So to try to argue that all people agree abstractly on things would actually deny the Bible then.

In other words, you're actually supporting Eastern Mysticism that looks at the underlying truths like love.

The Eastern Mystic would say that love is good, the object of your love is irrelevent.

So your actually supporting the point of view of Eastern Mysticism and deying the absolutism of the Bible, and you don't even realize it.

No, it doesn't. People allow their beliefs and preferences to color how they apply morality.

If I believed that stealing was wrong, but excused the behavior if I was stealing from the rich or if I gave the money to the poor. Stealing from those groups would still be wrong, but I would ignore it's wrongness under some circumstances. But in Judaism and Christianity, stealing is justified when it is the only way to protect your or another's life, like when one must steal to feed one's family.

So if love is right, then there must be a right way to apply the love. Is it to love everyone? If so, nobody would feel guilty for being homosexual. Homosexuals do feel guilt and shame and not just those who have repressive parents as some will say. That's not to say that they always feel shame. The Bible describes a callousing of the conscience, when someone chooses the same wrong behavior so often that their conscience can no longer goad them into doing right.

Most evangelicals believe in a false interpretation of the (so called)prophetic biblical scriptures

I'm sure that you would like to believe that, but that doesn't make it true.



Who cares what the bible describes?

The whole idea that started this conversation in the first place is that the Bible doesn't answer the important questions.

You tried to suggest that C. S. Lewis does, but his arguments are totally lame and without merit. Plus he even confess to not believing in parts of the Bible that don't strike him as reasonable (i.e. the existence of witches).

So now you're going to appeal to the Bible that it claims that people won't feel guilty after they have become calloused to their behavior?

That's flies in the very face of your original premise that people are supposed to agree on what's Right or Wrong in the first place.

Now you're just getting circular trying to use the Bible to justify your arguments that the Bible should be viewed as the word of God.

There is no reasonable argument why anyone should believe that the Bible is the word of God.

Even Jesus himself disagreed with the teachings of the God of Abraham. There's no way that he was the son of the God of Abraham.

The whole story is completely without merit, and my original assertion that it doesn't answer important question still stands.

Hey, the monkey evolved into a human!

I doubt seriously that most homosexuals feel any guilt over their feelings or preference in lovers. If they did not have societal pressures telling them that it is "wrong" in some respect, there would be no problem. It is an external restriction placed upon them.

Speak for yourself bud. I have never once in my entire life felt guilt of shame in being gay. Don't know any gays that do frankly. Sure my christian mother thought she did something 'WRONG' so certainly being gay would have been wrong for her. My christian mother felt shame, but it wasn't my shame, it was her own, from her own notion based in biblical nonsense.

You have lost credibility here just by that statement alone.

Truly.

Trying to argue that eveyone agrees with what is absolutely Right or Wrong, and then turning to the Bible as a source of an absolute authority in the matter is utter nonsense.

The original premise is totally false and anyone who has any common sense can see that.

Not everyone agrees with the Biblical nonsense. Not just on matters of homosexuality either.

So it's utter nonsense to try to argue for the Bible are these grounds. On the contrary this kind of argument actually refutes the Bible because in truth all humans do not agree with the absolute nonsense in the Bible.

It's often hard to admit to feeling that guilt, because it would be admitting that your life choices are wrong. Everybody makes wrong choices, what matters is that you eventually make the right ones.

The problem with Christianity is that it produces unbelievable arrogance and bigoty with absolutely no reasonable justification.

And that's all we have established thus far in this intercourse.

Besides, one only need read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the bible and it NEVER once clearly states what those people were doing exactly that was to be considered so wrong. Its incredibly ambiguous. It uses a great deal of descriptive terminology yet never comes out and states what the crime(s) were being perpetrated. Then later it says that they were inhospitable and not charitable. Nothing about being homosexuals.

Its just another issue that has been misinterpreted in order to further an agenda fueled by hate and fear.

if text say "gods will", and "god" is said to be ALL life, then all things have "gods will" within as "free will", or they could not be alive?

text say "god" give the desires of the heart?

that what one want or wish?

it is only half ideas, that say WHAT IS SIN, as some notion of others, and any that JUDGE another as NOT OF GOD, THEN ONESELF IS JUDGEDM AS NOT OF GOD by text itself?

how is this not what is say?

if text is used to establish self as god, and others not, then OF COURSE, IT WILL CREATE ALL THINGS THAT ARE LEAST GOOD, of the happiness of all?

is that not what was spoken pride, called lucifer did?

how is lucifer not just pride within anything mortal?

so not all have this, until the day it is seen, how this hurt self?

how could one judge others as not of god, and self as of god, and any common sense remain within anything?

if all of text is applied to all things, then it only speak of how right and wrong are BOTH the only thing that say more, or knowing more, and since each one pass thru all the notions taught to them, the same as a "christian" be this, because they heard this was good, but this same person, being born muslim, and all things within it's environment telling it "muslim" is good, would naturally assume this was?

does not each thing, have to wee thru all the notions said to be good, by oneself, as each human be soverign, and from god, or things spoken are used to perpetuate distian and hated, as what anything spoken telling another it is not of god?

even text say not to look to the left, or to the right, to access what be most good?

but look up?

not one thing as right, and one thing as wrong, but what it will create?

how is text anything more, than the telling of all human and others in days past, learing more good?

primtive man to modern man, growing up, as did not the whites just a few years ago, say blacks were bad and less valubale of a spieces, when the same blood and feeling and aspirations of love, pulse thru them as well?

ALL OF GOD, OR SELF CUT SELF OUT, of any more good?

the same as to say, oneself does not have to think of self, to be of god, or not of god, BUT RESIST THE TEMPTATION, IF ONE BELIEVE ITSELF IS, others as not?

this be the only true thing, that put oneself in a crossfire, of unequality, and ONLY EQUALITY WAS WHAT ALL MAN LEARNING, HAS BEEN CREATED, EACH AGE A "LITTLE MORE"?

how does not calling some of god, and others as not, do the same thing as ALL THINGS SAID TO BE LEAST GOOD FOR SELF INTEREST?

text be what is MOST BENEFICIAL TO SELF, TELLING OF MOST GOOD, BUT NOT SEEN IF LOOKING OUT EYES OF BIAS?

such things are easily understood to have come to be believed, as these notions have been displayed from every steeple in the nation, but such things believed curse self, as the "good feeling" of such as true, is long forgotten, when what must come to convince of different, self actually create itself?

if i say i am a great driver, beware, as self has MADE SELF SLEEPY IN THE MIND, AND A ACCIDENT WILL CREEP UP IN AN INSTANT?

this then MOST GOOD, as it SAVE SELF, from itself, and such thinking as SMART?

is there anyone in history that did not cause their own demise, by believing such notions as true?

how are these things believed, any different than the things hitler believed?

him turning it into, A WHOLE RACE AS OF TRASH?

how are these things believed any different than what the white man beleived of the indians?

how are such things any different than what the catholics believed of the protestants?

we all know what these notions later caused, when full grown?

anyways, just seems such notions are not anything that is anywhere close, to loving an enemey, which such could never be done, less the natural pitfall, of belief's spliced together from words, strung into these meanings, will CREATE?

no way ever could ever PEACE, AND GOD IS SAID TO BE OF PEACE, SO PEACE IS WITHIN ALL THINGS, so HOW to create peace is within as well?

certainly, these are not of peace, but most of hate, and what "create an illusion" that make things believe hate is the way of good?

to stand on a podium, and scream to the world, I AM OF GOD, AND YOU ARE NOT, IS BELIEVED TO BE OF GOD?

of wisdom, of peace, of caring, of kindness, of happiness, of fun, of all things most good?

such as these things would no doubt steal all happy potential to be created, less they were dumped, seeing they will destroy others potential, and self potential as well?

if god was said to be a creator, and each thing human said NOT POSSIBLE TO BE HUMAN, LESS IT HAS "GOD" OR JUST GREATER TRUTH WITHIN ITSELF, since god is life, than EACH THING AS WELL, BE A CREATOR, and of god?

so it seems what will these things CREATE be most the question?

text say god and satan be wisdom and ignorance, that reside IN ALL THINGS MORTAL, and text only be the continuing discovery by all things mortal, as to what be most of one, or the other, from the beginning of a human cycle, to an end?

what be satan and god, any more then ying and yany, good and evil, right and wrong, inner santum and carnel mind, conscious mind and subconscious mind, mind and heart, ark of the covenant and roaring lion the mind, devil and lived, evil and live, holy spirit and spirit of god?

only a holy spirit, will stand and declare self as one with god, and others as not?

declare self of god, no problem, but to REMOVE EQUAL, shatter all common sense and mo' better logic?

truly, we shall find out soon, that even all the words used within, were subverted, and MADE to have "derrogatroy" meaning, even by well intentioned men, that had as well, god and satan within, or COULD NOT BE ALIVE, and caused such things as "lived" to be interpreted as ONLY ONE WAY?

if good grow, just as evil can, than god grow, or the knowing of what create good, and so NOW should be more knowing of this, then ALL DAYS PAST?

if text hold true, then ANY word within, IF IT SOUND BAD, cannot be?

CAN'T BE WHAT SAY EVIL?

ALL THINGS WITHIN A CIRCULAR?

no beginning or ending?

so all things WITHIN TEXT, have NO FRONT OR BACK, NO UP OR DOWN, NO FORWARDS AND BACKWARDS, AS THE "ONLY" MEANING?

so if one choose, to make LIVE AS EVIL, then not complete?

MAKE IT DEVIL, OR LIVED?

NO BEGINNING, NO ENDING?

so then text is still unfolding, AND ADAM, IS NOT YET DONE?

NOT YET COMPLETE?

the earth NOT YET THE GARDEN COMPLETE?

nothing in TEXT CAN BE READ, IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER, and any true meaning had?

NO FIRST AND LAST, THE SAME AS TO THEN SAY, nothing in chronological order the mind put it in?

is that not why it said, THE SECRET CODE, must be given to something FIRST, or all meaning will be a curse?

just hate to see so many convinced of notions that make miersy and pain, as certainly it is not missed that if god amde all, and all things made come from god, as many profess, then all THINGS CAN NOT BE EVER AS DONE, OR COMPLETE, this being all notions within as well?

nor can SINGLE PEOPLE WITHIN, be of THE TELLING OF JUST ONE HUMAN LIFE OR PERSON?

this would be a beginning and ending OF EACH STORY?

then this would mean, the whole human race, each one and all, is living out the exact story of one's decribed within?

HITLER'S ACTIONS ARE CLEARLY DEFINED WITHIN?

EVERY LAST PERSON?

then who are you?

SAID THE STORY WAS EVER REPEATING?

it is only the notions within, placed thru a "holier than thou" notion, that HIDE JUST HOW MUCH GOOD, IS PLANNED FOR EACH LIVING THING, AND "WHEN" SUCH WILL HAPPEN, AND if these things are not known, then WHEN SUCH THINGS HAPPEN, that will be as catostrophic change, SUCH AS THE EARTH MOVING INTO NEW POSTIONS, WILL ACTUALLY SCARE PEOPLE TO ACTUAL DEATH?

but only not knowing in advance, can tis potential come to be realized?

text call "humans" many things, and knowing these unlock a greater GREAT MEANING?

like?

BEASTS ARE PEOPLE?

tree's are PEOPLE?

THE TRUEST ESSECNE NEEDED TO UNLOCK THE DAMN MEANINGS?

EACH THING IS A TREE OF LIFE, AND A TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL?

THE ALLL THINGS BOTH GOD AND SATAN?

nothing REMAIN AROUND, AFTER A CERTAIN TIME SOON COMING, WITHOUT PHYSICAL DEATH, less it know WHAT GOOD IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE EARTH?

IT CLEARLY SAY, GRAVITY WILL BE LIFTED, AND LESS ONE HAS HEARD THE DATA, FROM INNER SELF, OF HOW SUCH WILL COME TO BE, it will be scary as ****, and ALL ANCIENTS, AND TEXT, POINT TO 2012?

WHAT PART OF THE MYAN calender has been found to be incorrect?

where did they get the same truth as text?

had to come from INNER SELF?

THESE ALL SAY CHANGE ALL DONE BY THEN, AND TEXT AS WELL?

for gods sake, why focus on the crap, that does nothing to connect people and bring unity for one and all?

if any say text BE THE DEFINITION OF WHO BE GOOD, OR BAD, text say these be the 2/3 of all trees that die from heart failure from seeing scary ****?

it is a damn good change, HEAVEN ON EARTH, THE PLANET TILT BEING RIGHTED STRAIGHT UP, THAT WILL MAKE THE GARDEN, HEAVEN ON EARTH?

GOD REST THE SEVENTH DAY?

man repeats of this same cycle oever and again?

text say just how many?

hey man, just my one cent.......

call it what you will....

the hearer of any words, decide what is true or not true, NOT THE SPEAKER?

just ideas, ideas from a ghastly devil called satan manifest in a man......

When did you choose to be straight?

The only thing I might feel guilty about is what I am thinking about you right this minute. But since it would get me kicked out and deprived of the great people I have met here I won't say what I am thinking.

Once again 'you' decide what is Right and Wrong from a book? Get your focus off genitals and try logic.

What's going to happen one day when you don't have homosexuals to use as examples.