i just simply answered what Yahweh's will is.

a really simply one is..that none of his children would perish.

But would come to the saving knowledge of Yahshua.

That we understand that Yahweh is Salvation and by no other name their is.

This knowledge of this testifies of who Yahweh is.

The beginning and the end.

Their is no greater power and we believe and know without doubt ( assuranse) thier is a reckoning or a resserection of the dead.

Abelief if you have it that no power can destroy or take away from you.

TH is the True Shalom that comes in us as the word of Yahweh.

This word was from the beginning, the torah our instruction manual as all else is simply how the torah was done or fullfilled in our forefathers lives as an example to us.

This example came in human form to show us through all humility the true evangel set forth to Abraham and Joseph but this time the sacrafice of Isaac was carried out with the assurance to all who saw the renewing of life everlasting as Yahshua showed us with all faith he would come back to life after 3days.

proving to Abraham's children that Yahweh does hear the just and the just have nothing to ever fear.

A gift to us of example

That's pretty moving. Intense belief to complete rejection of the Holy Book. I'm glad you made the journey.

In fact, I would challenge any Christian to read that and not feel their faith be shaken at least a little.

Why would the creator of the universe have such a humongous ego?

Why would the creator of the universe expect all the other cultures of the world to drop what they believe to buy into a religious doctrine that is clearly culturally biased?

That's truly an absurd notion.

There are so many problems with this idea. Not the least of which is that it is so localized geographically.

Why should any intelligent human being believe that the creator of this universe would only inspire men of one culture on earth to write about him?

That's a very legitimate question that any intelligent person would ask. I'm certainly asking it.

If the creator of this universe was inspiring humans to write his word why didn't he inspire all humans from all around the planet to write the same things?

Clearly this dogma didn't not come from the creator of this universe.

It's clear that this was NOT the God of the Egyptians. Nor was it the God of the Canaanites. Nor was it the God of the Greeks. Nor was it the God of the Aztecs. Nor was it the God of Vikings, nor the Asians, nor many tribes of Africa, South America, Mexico, North America, Austrailia, etc, etc, etc.

The Bible is clearly the God of Israelis.

Why should everyone else buy into their idea of God?

That's absurd.

What sense does it even make to believe that the creator of this universe would be pissed at everyone who doesn't believe that stories written by Isrealites are the only true word of God?

That's truly absurd Miles.

What would be the value of that to God?

The story started out being about a God who was supposed to care how people acted, and somehow it go totally off track and now it's a story about a God who's totally pissed at anyone who doesn't believe the Jesus was God.

It's ridiculous.

And this is supposed to be an unchanging God that's dependable?

How can anyone depend on a God who has changed so drastically in what it wants from people?

The religion is a train wreck.

Why would this God be pissed with anyone who doesn't want to believe that God solved all his problems using violent methods that even young children can offer better solutions for?

It's all about an ANGRY God who is extremely egotistical and will become extremely nasty toward anyone who dares to not believe that God is nasty.

If that's truly what our creator is like miles than most human beings have already evolved above that God.

Most human beings are nicer than that Miles.

We'd be better off if George Carlin were God!

Well, I think a lot of people simply don't have enough faith.

You see, I'm not an atheist. I simply came to the realization that the Bible has nothing to do with any divine supreme being.

When I realized this it didn't shatter my faith in "spirit" it simply change my perspective of what "God" actually might be like.

There are so many issues that it's hard to deal with in posts on a forum. But I'll try to cover some ideas.

First off, the whole Christian and Biblical perspective is based on the idea that 'souls' are created at birth and are judged at death to determine what will happen to them after that for all of eternity.

To be perfectly honest about it, that never set right with me even when I was a believer.

However, there are other possiblities.

Reincarnation is indeed a very likely scenario.

And once you've accepted reincarnation then you open up an infinite of possibilites for God.

In fact, for anyone who truly likes the idea of a God who is genuinely all powerful, the idea of reincarnation should be very appealing.

After all, a God who is limited to judging souls based on a mere mortal lifetime would be a very limited God.

So for those who like the idea of God truly having infinite power reincarnation should be very attractive. It's far more intelligent than the single-lifetime-judgement scenario.

Moreover, even Christians believe that the most horrific criminals can be 'forgiven' and accepted in to heaven by God if they truly repent.

Well, now think about this.

Pretend that your God, and you create souls for a living.

Your ulitmate goal is to have all souls enter into your "Kingdom of Heaven".

What would you do? Would you create them so that they can only have one very short lifetime, many of which will be cut short?

This would pretty much guarantee that you would lose the vast majority of souls that you create.

Morever, it would also guarantee that most of those souls will need to be punished for all of eternity thus increasing your heating bills for Hell.

OR,.. You could be SMART!

You could create souls so that they continue to reincarnate until they have all been saved. Not by accepting some particular dogma, but by genuinely learning to live a loving life.

Then you wouldn't even need to create a hell at all. No souls would be lost, and you'd have a 100% harvest rate of all the souls you've created because everyone would be sure to repent after so many incarnations.

Surely there would come a time when they are just sick and tired of proselytizing hateful religions and they would finally start to love their brothers.

Then you could have all souls be winners. God wins. Mankind wins. Everyone is a winner. No losers.

Now there's a brilliant God!

And an all-powerful one to boot!

So what do you think? Do you think God is stupid and limited like the Bible says? Or do you think that God is probably more intelligent than me?

I choose to believe that God is more than likely more intelligent than me.

That's my choice.

I believe that God is truly intelligent and wise and not at all like the authors of the Bible claim.

This Abra is where thier is a lot of misunderstanding.

This I am sure differs from what you have heard of the Evangel and what it says.

the scriptures are for all people but that does not mean that all people would ever get them or hear them untill it was time.

The 10 comandments are a basic fundemental life.

The first 3 are not written to those who have never had a chance to understand.
The 4th being written as a promice to Israel and then

The next 6 are mans as he was made on the 6th day and these 6 commandments are a basis for all societies.

They are ingrained in us as a people on a basic right and wrong and civilizations have built from them.

Now the mayas and so on How can any of us tell for certain what they took on.

the 6 being in all societies should say something to all the world.

The scriptures say that at the end of the 1000 year regeign that all the dead will be brought to life and judged by thier works.

This includes all people and these 6 commandments will be the measureing stick..

Love thy nieghbor with all your heart.

Have you done that will be the judgement of people from all time that has not ever had a chance to learn of Yahshua.

The scriptures speak of where much is given much is expected.

This is speaking to rulers and those who govern the people but is mainly speaking of the ones who claim to be using Yahweh's knowledge as thier measuring stick to teach the people about loyalty and love.

When Yahweh speaks so often about his Salvation who was to come and who came as an example to us.

To those who confess this is true and they believe with all thier Heart ,mind and soul.

They have a great annointing on them as a seal from Yahweh an ambassador just like any country sends an ambassador out to foriegn lands. They are to represent thier country or kingdom with all zeal and humility.

To all others it is the more you understand the more you are responcible for.

So Yahweh has protected most people throughout the ages because he was working with a certain people and anyone who wanted to be graft3ed in or adopted as one born of the land could.

No different than say someone becoming an American born of the land with all the benefits and loyalty they are to have to this new land.


This being said and you speak of all these cultures and Yahweh being big headed to have or make so many do as he says when he could just will it so.

yes he could will it so.

The problem is, is why was Adam and Eve made in the first place?

\ This answer is to learn from a physical body.

But they fell sone after they were created. Satan was thier in the garden for a reason.

He was thier to try and show Yahweh and the Angels who would fall with him that this creation that is physical and not Spirit yet life came from Spirit as Yahweh's breathed and Adam became alive.

We all have that portion of Yahweh's Spirit in us hence the 6 day creation of man and the 6 commandments indwelled in man.

Satan though when he tricked Eve and they were sent out of the Garden we see Evil and jealousy come right away into Cain.

This Jealousy came from Satan as they had not learded this yet and these type of self willed emotions became stronger as Time went on.

the scriptures tell us we are sick and dieing because of pour sins among us.

This is not a personal sin this is wide spread sin that kills us off just as any disease kills off the people for the unhealthy ways of a few.

Job showed us the reason or I guess Yahweh shows us in Job what we are doing. Job is the believers world.

For we are to inherit what the Angels could not. Sonship.

The Angels fell even as Spirit beings who all knew who Yahweh was/is.

The planet does not. The people on the planet die and we have this hope of living on.

It seems that all civilizations for some reason believe in this life after death. I wonder why?

So what we are here for we are in training so we learn Yahweh's ways and through the physical when we become spirit will not rebell as the Angels.

We will have experienced something they did not and that is Death.

Coming on down through time to the near future I believe we will have a time when all will hear and see the power of Yahweh.

Not only will thier be thousands from the 4 corners of the earth they will see as a testimony to them of yahweh's love and forgiveness but also signs and miracles.

But Yahweh takes it a step futher for 2 witnesses will come who will be so powerful the world will hate them as the things of the world they will call evil for what it is.

They will not listen to any government and wll have power like Moses to shut rain off of lands that curse Yqahweh and they will curse him even more.

These 2 witnesses are for just the very end that is close to Yahshua's return.

They are so powerful and hated by the world that Jerusalem it says they will lie in the streets for 3 days to 3 1/2 days to which they will come alive and be raised to heaven as the whole world watches.

This will complete the testimony to those who has heard the Evangel but just were not sure.

Scripture calls them a great crowd who will give thier lives now as the whole world goes into Chaos as Helel/satan reveals himself with signs and great miracles that what has happened was because of him and he killed these 2 prophets who tortured the world.

So see Yahweh is not condeming anyone. He is giving a chance to all who have lived. even ones who it seems to be over a billion people who do not believe untill Yahshua is actually back.

They have not suffered death. They now will be taught again as the forefathers were taught in the wilderness.

Satan is the one who come up with hell fire and eternal damnation.. That is nowhere in the bible.

It tells us eternal life is a Gift from Yahweh.

Then it speaks about the destruction of the soul. Not eternal life of torture. It does not even speak of the lost being tortured.

It seems to in one place but it is not what everyone seems to want it to say.

This is why the Torah was given as a measuring stick against any decietful spirit.\

We are told To the Law and the testimony if any speaks contrary to it it is because thier is no light in them.

This is saying if anything goes against the law wich Yahshua and Joseph Testifed of then reject it and look harder because a decietfull spirit is the only thing that can go against the Torah. So simply reject it. Blessings of Shalom/...Miles

Abra, I think we have a lot of similar points in our beliefs.

Myself, I believe in reincarnation. I always thought it was certainly a possibility, and it made sense to me just that it was more just...and that so many people have claimed to have clear recollections of moments of a past life. Certainly possible.

However, this is the first time I see someone show that it is not just possible, *but likely*. Bravo! You've convinced me! I think that's a bloody brilliant argument you got there, and I hope you don't mind if I use it should the topic ever come up.

And the thing about the heating bills for Hell...brilliant.

I do have a couple issues with the theory:

1) The theory sort of implies that God has some sort of quota of souls that he needs to redeem? At one point, humanity's population will slowly drop until all the souls are finally back in heaven?
-->A fix for this, I suppose, is that God has an infinite amount of souls as long as people keep reproducing. God is omnipotent, after all.
-Another issue with this: What happens if the human population is suddenly wiped out somehow? So much for waiting for everyone to come to their senses and be redeemed, huh?
--> A possible fix is to claim that this would constitute the Apocalypse and that these souls are the ones that *just didn't get it*. They deserve to go to hell.
-A problem with this is, perhaps some of these remaining souls are still young (after all, the population may keep increasing to that point)...so they didn't get their fair chance.

2) Why does God need to do all the stuff? Why does he need to harvest *good* souls that have been redeemed? Why all this heaven business? Why create us in the first place? Why, why, why?

3) It's a cool theory that you've put together and all that, but remember, it's you who logicked it out. Sometimes reality is as logic dictates, but the Divine could operate so many ways that your particular take on things is, finally, more or less arbitrary (except that you come to your conclusions very logically).

Could I easily say that a giant, intergalactic robot was flying through space, observing different civilizations, thinking...and finally, he finishes his plans for creating his great masterpiece: He creates a solar system, and on one of the planets, he sparks biological life. He watches over the development of all the species over millions of years, and when he sees one species that has potential, he makes small interventions, ensuring this species' survival.
When he sees that we're more or less good on our own, he sits back and admires what he has done - he has orchestrated and created an entire planet of civilizations! Complex and faceted each one of them! Sighing deeply (I'm sure robots this complex can sigh), he decides to head off to the other side of the universe in search of other adventures, but always, in his heart (I mean, virtual memory banks), he cherishes the lives he once created.

And here we our. Our metallic creator thought we'd be all right from this point forth, but we're starting to have all sorts of problems. We're facing obesity problems, nuclear extinction, resource shortages. If only our creator were still here to make his little adjustments. Perhaps, though, he was wise enough to realize that extinction is a fact of life, that one Earth rotation (one day, I mean), his creations may cease to exist...


Whew! I got a little carried away, but do you see my point? This myth is perhaps just as possible as yours...

Myself, I'm agnostic. I sometimes like to wonder about the nature of the Divine? What manifestations make sense and are possible? Certainly, your ideas about God are possible, and finally, I agree with you - that is, if there is a God like some say there is, I like to think he is far more intelligent than any of us. In fact, I don't think it could be any other way.

Though you have to admit that the Bible's story is at least possible. God could have all those bad qualities I ascribe to Him. Who says God has to be nice. I understand how many can find that disheartening or depressing, but I also think that to feel that way is a bit illogical. We still are who we are, we still do what we do. Just because there is a being more powerful than us, why does that make *Him* right? Maybe *I'm* right and God's wrong?

I apologize for the length. I hope the story was fun at least.

Miles:

One:

What does God have to learn from a physical body?

Two:
I don't mean to be rude, but please learn to use punctuation, sir! What you write is interesting, but it's almost impossible for me to read. Also, you have several run-on sentences. >_O
Also, you say (I think), that we can find the right meaning in the Torah if we sincerely look, really look, and keep looking, and that if we don't understand, then we're not ready, in which case we should look again later. Well, that's fine for the Torah, but that doesn't mean you need to write so we have to decipher your words as well!

Three:
According to the Torah then, I have no light in me. That sucks! lols
I guess I'm a deceitful spirit and an anti-messiah. That sounds kind of cool actually...

i think you are playing games.

the torah is not a game. i write as i am given i do not second guess what i write or how i write. it is learning for me whenever i write.

because do it in the spirit and i do not really know for sure what i wrote untill it is already posted. trust faith that what i am given at the time is correct. teaches me shalom..miles

Genesis isn't in the book Mere Christianity.

Also, your exegesis seems to be very biased and ignorant. Mere Christianity will answer your questions, just give it a chance.

You can read or listen to Mere Christianity below.

http://www.philosophyforlife.com/mctoc.htm
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4A31B907BE486BA5

noquite,

I don't claim to have a 'theory', just speculation like everyone else.

Like you I too am ultimately agnostic, and I hold that all humans are agnostic whether they confess to it or not.

In fact, the only way to not be agnostic would be to actually have divine knowledge, which many Christians will readly lay claim to, but don't exhibit the wisdom and behavior that would supposedly accompany that knowledge.

The truth is that no human truly knows where there is a God or not. At the very best they can only have faith and claim to be a 'believer' of whatever they claim to believe.

When it comes to the Bible, the Torah, and the Quaran I can tell you this much with absolute certainty. They all arose from the same folklore.

That should be enough right there to show that there's nothing to the idea that any of those books are the "word of God". Any God who supposedly wrote a book and would allow that book to fall into, at the very least, three major OPPOSING religions would be a totally irresponsible God.

Clearly the author of a book has some responsiblity for it's message content.

Who are the LOUDEST people on the forums?

The Paper Popes of Protestanism.

Individuals who are trying to sell their own personal interpretation of the Bible as "The word of God".

Well, isn't that an insult to eveyrone else who read that book?

I read that Bible and I didn't see it as the word of any God. I saw it clearly as the words of male-chauvinistic bigoted men who pretended that God was telling them to do all the terrible things they did.

When I got to the New Testament I saw a man who basically taught the fundamental philosophy of Buddhism. He was murdered for blaspheme and then used as a dead marionette doll to prop up the very religion that he had clearly objected to.

After reading the Bible it's my firm conclusion that Jesus could not possibly have been the son of the God of Abraham. But in order to see that a person must recognize that the book was never the inspired word of God to begin with and it contains mostly demagoguery by men who were determined to use the religion to control the masses, and thus ARMIES!

I can give you a myriad of reasons why the Bible can't be the word of any divine being. I can't give you a single solitary reason why you should believe that it is.

Just look at the things that are being attributed to Jesus,...

Love they Neighbor
Don't judge others
Turn the other cheek (forgive)

These ideas weren't new with Jesus, these had been taught in Buddhism long before Jesus was ever born.

Jesus did not offer or teach anything that hadn't already been taught by Buddhism. The idea that Jesus added anything new to the thinking of mankind is simply untrue.

These ideas might have been new to the people of the Middle East, but that was simply because they were so far behind the Buddhists in terms of moral growth. And clearly they never did catch up.

So when I say that I'm 'agnostic' I don't mean that I don't know what to believe. I'm absolutely certain that the Bible has nothing to do with any divine God. On the contrary, even if the Bible were true all that would be saying is that God is not divine after all. No divine surpreme being would lust for blood sacrifices! That should be a dead giveaway right there!

God is supposed to be all-wise, yet there is nothing wise about how the biblical God handles any of his problems. He handles all of his problem the same way that medieval mortal men handled them - with violence and murder!

Doesn't that sound like the actions of an all-wise God?

So clearly the Bible is out of the picture as far as any God might be concerned. If any God exists it's going to need to be quite different from the Biblical description.

Thus I can offer ideas of what a genuinely intelligent God might be like. And it's quite easy actually. All I need to do is come up with the wisest picture I can muster and know that God necessarily has to be even better than that picture.

Why? Becuase surely as a mortal man I could not even imagine a God better than the real God. That would implies that I have a better mind than God!

So any picture I come up with, God has to be far better than that.

Now the question is simple. Can I imagine a scenario of an all-powerful, all-wise God where nobody loses?

YES, I can!

Well, there you go!

Already I've put the authors of the Bible to shame. According to the Bible God is a Big Time Loser!

That's right.

According to the Bible there was a point in time when God had to flush almost all of humanity down the toilet to Satan in the Great Flood.

That's a loser God.

That's a God who loses the vast majority of the souls that it creates.

It doesn't stop there.

If you go on to the New Testament Jesus himself was said to have stated that the path to God's kingdom is straight and the gate is narrow and few will make it.

Well, if few make it into the kingdom of God what does that mean? It means that the majority of souls are being lost to Satan.

According to the Bible Satan is the Big Time winner in all of this. By the Bible's very own proclamation!

The Bible is clearly a story about a God who loses miserably at every turn.

But here I am with an idea of how to save every single soul via reincarnation and karma. Just let people keep being reincarnated over and over again with their karma keeping tabs on their behavior and seting their future conditions in accordance with very own actions.

This is how the Eastern Mystics believe. So I'm not really inventing anything new here at all. In fact this idea is far older than Christianity itself.

What does it require? It simply requires a God who has infinite patience and infinite power. These are two traits that every Christian would love to attribute to God. Yet the biblical picture shows a very impatient God who has extremely limited power.

In fact, what's up with the idea of a flood to kill off all the sinners? Is that what an infinitely powerful God would do?

No, of course not. Such a flood would be an absurd mess and kill a lot of young babies unnecessarily, etc, etc, etc.

And infinitely powerful God would have just given all the sinners heart attacks and then told Noah and his family to go around collecting all the babies and to start a nice little day care center where they could raise the babies to be nice little "Christians". Of course this was before Christianity, but you get the idea.

The Biblical God is supposed to be a "Fatherly Image", but there is nothing fatherly about his methods of solution to his problems.

The Biblical God solves all his problems using really crude and rude methods that you'd expect from a rowdy bar room drunkard.

Is that the best that the biblcal God could come up with?

If so, then either the Biblical God is utterly stupid, or it is extremely limited in what it can do. Either way, it's no all-wise God who has infinite capablities.

So to believe in the Biblical God a person must also believe that God is extremely challenged intellectually, and very limited in what he can do physically.

Even the crucifixion itself is just yet another example of a very limited God. That's the best solution God could come up with? :huh?

That would seem to be an utter act of desperation for a God to have to sacrifice its own son to appease itself so it can forgive a bunch of pathetically misbehaved humans.

Also, why did "God so love the world" at the time of the crucifixion and have so little compassion for the world during the Great Flood?

It's God supposed to be unchanging?

Clearly the biblical God changes his persona all the time. In fact, Jesus himself seems to have a totally different idea of how men should live than the God of Abraham did.

How anyone can possibly believe that the Bible is the word of any God is beyond me.

I can see how they were socially herded into that mentality. I too, had been raised into that religion. I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Thank God I was smart enough to actually READ the book for myself! And I also wasn't afraid to question it as possibly being nothing more than the mere ramblings of bigoted male-chuavinistic men.

Clearly, no divine creator of this unvierse would be as utterly stupid and lame as the Bible claims.

Whether or not there actually exists a God at all, I have no clue. I tend to believe that we are spiritual in our true essence. I have no desire to convince anyone of this. I have no problem at all with atheists who are happy believing that life is just an accident. I don't care what other people believe.

Although, having said that I suppose I do care when they want to ram their beliefs down my throat by constantly proselytizing their stupid superstitions to every person in the world in which I live, and when they start trying to push their bigotry and brohterly hate into law and forgien affairs.

There. That was a good ramble. I feel better now.

None of this has anything to do with God. It all has to do with a religion that is being used to proselytize bigotry and brotherly hatred in the name of Jesus Christ.

It's truly the saddest thing that humans have ever done. Just look at all the hatred and violence this religion has been responsible for thoughtout history, and it continues to provoke civil unrest and bigotry to this very day!

I may sound like I'm playing around, but I'm being serious.

There is nothing wrong with writing in the spirit. You just need to go over and do a spelling and grammar check.

Let's just say that when the spirit is channeled through finite being such as us, it comes out raw, pure, and near unintelligible, for we are but finite creatures. After you write, please do us the favor of translating into human speak.

I'm being serious. Your writing is tough for me to read and I'd *like* to read it.

Oohhh...I thought your English was just...not so good. You might have been a foreigner, and there are plenty Americans who aren't such good writers.

I thought you wrote "mere Christianity answers that in the first section" to mean "even the humble faith of Christianity answers that in the first book called Genesis." Well, phrased the first way, can you see how your comment looked like a challenge from an arrogant Christian? It did to me at least...though, perhaps I should have been a little more reserved in my rebuttal. ^_^

You're right, the interpretation I offered was quite biased (I wouldn't call it ignorant though, but then again, I'm the one who wrote it! hehe). If you look back, however, I was careful to mention that I offer but ONE interpretation, and not necessarily the *correct* interpretation, or even the interpretation that *I* personally hold.

Next time, when you are mentioning a book title, please stick to convention and put it in quotes.

I know the English language is a bit crazy, but certain practices were made standard for a reason - to avoid confusion. The response to your comment took a bit of time to write, so I suffered too, lol!

I'll check out "Mere Christianity." Thanks a lot for the letting us know about it, and sorry for the misunderstanding.

Ah, you're right: It was clumsy of me to use the word theory and not...speculation, idea, or hypothesis.

Hear that everyone, in Science, the word theory is equivalent to the word fact, okay? To say Theory of Evolution is equivalent to saying Fact of Evolution!
(This was once an annoying and reoccurring theme in threads on a science and religion forum I once found.)



This was really clever...it's called the Squeeze Theorem, lols.

Abra, you writing is very compelling. I feel like you do on many accounts, but the way I look at it isn't as thought-through as your writing. You really should write a book because some of these arguments...are really, really convincing the way you word them.

Of course, if you write a book...then you sort of join the ranks of the Paper Popes (a good title for a book by the way )!

Oh, and if one day you do sit down to write a book or two, I volunteer to give it a good look through or two. ;-P


There is one hole I found to poke, although, seeing as you are agnostic, perhaps on a personal level this is a non-issue to you:

Well, in history, we've come up with plenty of divine, supreme beings who fit that category. I admit, they are not supreme in terms of intelligence, power, or kindness; they are supreme, perhaps, in the sense that Taco Bell's Burrito Supreme is supreme - it's big, and it kicks ass.

The point being is, why does God have to be infinite, all-powerful, super-intelligent, and absolutely kind? Maybe he is just as juvenile and self-important as the Bible writes? Maybe he told everyone to say good things about him or else...just 'cause it made he feel better?

Just like the Giant Intergalactic Robot scenario (not my own invention, so I can't take credit), I can very easily give you a history of the Bible's God that fits on all accounts.

I know you are agnostic, so maybe you're beyond this:
Perhaps the beneficent and infinite being that many of us believe or hope to exist...doesn't exist. Maybe believing that he is there gives us some comfort. Maybe feeling that such a powerful being is at all interested in we puny, little humans is but a result of our narcissism.

Maybe Heaven is a lie? A fairytale to comfort children.



Lastly, you write that perhaps everyone, in their heart of hearts, is agnostic. I think that's an accurate statement, and is useful in pointing something important. When you say that everyone is agnostic, I think you're implying that in everyone's heart, they truly *do not know* whether God exists or not. This implies the fact that they *do not know* is a deep, dark secret that they don't even want to admit to themselves. One may wonder if they fear this uncertainty. One may wonder if at the core of our religious and spiritual beliefs is the fear of our insignificance, or of being alone without someone to look out for us in this great, unfriendly universe.

However, this truth or opinion is best kept a little hushed, because it is a serious challenge to everyone's beliefs. We've been challenging people's beliefs all along, but at least it was on their own turf. This agnosticism deal is telling them that they are not who they think they are, that they are unknowingly hiding from themselves their fears and doubts. I think that hits a little too close to home for most people, and perhaps...if you ever choose to write a book, you'll leave out this particular opinion...at least until you write your second book. ^_^

C. S. Lewis is a devout Christian who will only consider the Bible from the point of view that it is the word of God. He has made several comments like, "Either Jesus was God, or he was a raving lunatic."

What does that really say? It says that C. S. Lewis cannot step outside of the box to consider that the Bible might possible have been written by men who had an agenda. He assumes that all of the words of the New Testament are true whether Jesus was God or not!

That's where he fails.

If Jesus was not God, then the men who wrote the New Testament were just using Jesus as a marionette doll for their own agenda. Therefore you can't trust that everything they claim Jesus to have said had actually been said by Jesus.

C. S. Lewis won't consider that point of view at all. He assumes that the New Testament is the verbatim truth of what Jesus had said. He doesn't allow for misinterpretations of the words of Jesus, nor does he allow for the possibly that the authors were knowingly using Jesus as a marionette doll.

Therefore anything that C. S. Lewis has to say is meaningless, because he's working on the assumption that the Bible is indeed the word of God.

C. S. Lewis speaks entirely from that point of view only. He has a conclusion and is looking for explanations to support his conclusion.

And he won't consider any other possible conclusions.

So he's working backwards as a devout Christian claiming that the Bible is the word of God, and now he's going to defend that conviction.

I'm not impressed in the slightest. It's just meaningless arguments from someone who has decided to believe the Bible no matter what it takes to support it. And he's not the slightest bit convincing.

So no, C. S. Lewis does not answer any of the questions. He just assumes that the Bible is the word of God and he makes very feeble arguments that God must have reasons for what he does even if we don't understand them.

His attempts to defend the biblical claims are not at all impressive. In fact, he even compares being God with being a human authority trying to deal with an unruly culture. But all that suggests is that God isn't any wiser, or more powerful than mere human authorities.

C. S. Lewis does not impress me at all. His so-called "answers" are nothing more than very lame excuses that require that God has no more wisdom or authority than a mere mortal man.

Not impressive.

I enjoy CS Lewis's books and movies. They are fun to read and he was an atheist in his younger years as some may not know.

Someone or something had changed his mind later on though. I have read that J.R.R. Tolkien had many disagreements with him concerning his conclusion to Christianity when they were in a group called "Inklings" hanging out at a English Pub to smoke a good pipe and have some drink.

Perhaps in the end C.S. Lewis was scared on where he will end up when he passes away and embraced Christianity for a solution that he personally thought to be comforting.

Many folks do this when they get older because how the religion is constructed for one to believe or end up somewhere undesirable.

Fortunately many of course but not all believe the stories of the bible to be nothing more then a fairy tale. I personally enjoy the German Brother's Grimm's writings as a alternative instead for they are easier to read and to enjoy

Walt Disney profited big from the Grimm Brother's imaginations.

Abra, would you take another look at my last post. I made an edit (as of 08:56 AM, it says, but I'm not sure if that's relative to me only) that I'd like you to see. It's at the end and discusses agnosticism. ;-)

Hey, Smiless. Cool to see you here.

Abra is a good friend of mine for over a year now. We post alot in the religion forums together. Of course his wisdom exceeds mine concerning religious studies as of other things also. You can learn alot from him if you desire or at least see a different perspective on topics.

You are absolutely right!

God could indeed be a demon. God could be a Hitler! In fact the Bible tells us so!

Although the Bible claims that God is all-wise, and all-powerful. There is a Christian slogan "With God all things are possible".

Well according to the Bible this is not true. God can't even forgive without first being appeased by a blood sacrifice. That's already a limitation that the Bible has placed on their God.

In fact, the Bible has placed a lot of restrictions on God via the stories that it tells. So the Bible is in conflict with it's own proclamation that God is all-wise and all-powerful yet according to the Bible God does unwise thing in very limited ways.

But that's the Bible's inconsistencies and demands. The Bible demands that God is all merciful, yet God still sends people to hell. That's a conflict right there.

On a more abstract level I agree that God doesn't need to be nice. I just prefer to believe that if there is a God it is nice. After all, if God isn't nice why would I want to even think about that until I have no other choice in the matter?

So I imagine God being nicer than me. And that's a pretty wonderful thought, because contrary to what Christians might think, I'm a really nice guy.

So if God is nicer than me, then we're all in great shape and no one will be going to any eternal hell.

All will be forgiven.

If God isn't as nice as me, then I hope the atheists are right. I'd rather there be no God at all than to discover that God isn't even as nice as me!

That would be hell in itself!

So if we're going to consider a God let's consider a nice God. Otherwise let's just hope that the atheists are right!

If God turns out to be a jerk that will just be truly despressing beyond belief. Atheism would seem like heaven in comparison.

"Give me liberty or give me death" - Patrick Henry

Truly, give me a nice God or give me atheism, I don't want to end up being a slave to a sick demented God.

I think people need to face that for their own good.

I mean we can believe in a spirit life all we want, but we should also be prepared to accept atheism.

I think one way to get people to accept atheism as a potential fate is to ask them if they would be willing to give their life for God.

I mean to truly cease to exist.

If they could come to grips to being willing to do that for God, then they should be able to come to grips with the idea of ceasing to exist.

It's not such a horrible thought.

In fact, if the fear of ceasing to exist is the only thing that is driving them to believing in a God then they are doing it for all the wrong reason anyway.

No one is truly worthy of God until they can accept true death. If you can't fathom the thought of ceasing to exist then you're just living in fear and your spirituality is empty anyway.

Well whatever God's will (title of the thread) is good luck to him, her or it.

MY WILL is to have a good lunch today.