So....In an effort to ward off the "we got to have gun control now"
crowd, Ive done some reading, believe it or not I can read. Any way I
came across a pretty good article and I thought I'd post it here.
Ummmm.... we could discuss the need for or the need to not have gun
control, but being an army guy and firm believer in the right to keep
and bear arms I think you can guess where my loyalties ly. so;

Gun Control Misfires in Europe
What's behind the massacres in Germany, France and Switzerland?

BY JOHN R. LOTT JR.
Saturday, May 4, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT

Sixteen people were killed during last week's school shooting in
Germany. This follows the killing of 14 regional legislators in Zug, a
Swiss canton, last September, and the massacre of eight city council
members in a Paris suburb last month. The three worst public shootings
in the Western world during the past year all occurred in Europe, whose
gun laws are exactly what gun-control advocates want the U.S. to adopt.
Indeed, all three occurred in gun-free "safe zones."

Germans who wish to get hold of a hunting rifle must undergo checks that
can last a year, while those wanting a gun for sport must be a member of
a club and obtain a license from the police. The French must apply for
gun permits, which are granted only after an exhaustive background and
medical record check and demonstrated need, with permits only valid for
three years. Even Switzerland's once famously liberal laws have become
tighter. Swiss federal law now limits gun permits to only those who can
demonstrate in advance a need for a weapon to protect themselves or
others against a precisely specified danger.

The problem with such laws is that they take away guns from law-abiding
citizens, while would-be criminals ignore them, leaving potential
victims defenseless. The U.S. has shown that making guns more available
is actually a better formula for law and order.





America has seen a major change from 1985, when just eight states had
the most liberal right-to-carry laws, which automatically grant permits
once applicants pass a criminal background check, pay their fees and in
some cases complete a training class. Today the total is 33 states.
Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings fell on
average by 78% in states that passed such laws.
In Europe, by contrast, violent crime is rising. Many factors are
responsible, but it's clear that strict gun control laws aren't helping.

In 1996, Britain banned handguns. The ban was so tight that even
shooters training for the Olympics were forced to travel to other
countries to practice. In the six years since the ban, gun crimes have
risen by an astounding 40%. Britain now leads the U.S. by a wide margin
in robberies and aggravated assaults. Although murder and rape rates are
still lower than in the U.S., the difference is shrinking quickly. Dave
Rogers, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said that
despite the ban, "the underground supply of guns does not seem to have
dried up at all."

Australia also passed severe gun restrictions in 1996, banning most guns
and making it a crime to use a gun defensively. In the subsequent four
years, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults
by 24%, and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter
rose by 16%.

And both Britain and Australia have been thought to be ideal places for
gun control because they are surrounded by water, making gun smuggling
relatively difficult. By contrast smuggling is much easier on the
Continent or within the U.S.





Gun-control advocates frequently ignore another inconvenient fact: Many
countries with high homicide rates have gun bans. It is hard to think of
a much more draconian police state than the former Soviet Union, with a
ban on guns that dated back to the communist revolution. Yet newly
released data show that from 1976 to 1985 the U.S.S.R.'s homicide rate
was between 21% and 41% higher than that of the U.S.
Many French politicians complained during their presidential election
that the shooting in Paris meant "it's getting like in America, and we
don't want to see that here." Americans may draw a different lesson from
the evidence, and hope that they don't become more like the Europeans.

Mr. Lott is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and
the author of "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago Press,
2000).

well if they think you may shoot back

they will go elsewhere

makes sense to me robin.

GUN CONTROL IS NOT FOR OUR SAFTY. IT IS THE START FOR MONEY CONTROL IT
IS FOR OUR CONTROL.

Uh. Full caps and poor grammar won't help your point, any. In fact, it
makes the rest of us pro-firearms folks look like raving lunatics.


I've been raised around guns. My first memory of guns was at age 6-
when my father shot a trapped rabbit (that we ate, by the way)- so I
knew guns were killing tools very early on. I fired my first shotgun at
age 8. Took me like 5 minutes to stand up again- but from that day on, I
had complete respect (and a little fear) of guns. Which is exactly the
right mix.


I highly support firearms be available to everyone (with a training
course, and proper checks, naturally). Criminals will get guns, no
matter WHAT we do. It's the decent folk who need them.

Yes I do believe in gun control.

I keep my weapons under my control. They are oiled and ready but
hopefully will never be needed.

I practice with them from time to time so I will also be ready if
necessary while praying it will never be necessary for me to use one.

That said...

If someone else wishes to control my weapons they may have them when
they can TAKE them.

ok there is a gun law i can agree with

every one old enough to be president
with out a psych problem or felony
conviction must carry a weapon of some kind

just a thought

but hey what do i know

I got a e-mail the other day who's subject read....

"As usual no one but the bad guy had a gun".

I thought it was an interesting perspective. Everyone knows the best
offense is a good defense. Imagine if just a couple of the good willed
students had guns on them that day. How many fewer people might of died?
With the school's "no gun on campus" law they left every student a
sitting duck.

Food for thought.

P.S. I believe in gun control, don't get me wrong. If a person will a
documented mental illness can buy a gun, the laws need tweaked. That
said... gun control for me comes in the form of my index finger.

90% of what people fear comes from a lack of knowledge, this holds true
for guns as well.

Actually, that's "the best defence is a good offence". You messed up
the quote.

I don't think more guns is the answer. I do think people should be
educated on shooting weapons, how they work, and used as a last resort.

No, more guns isn't the answer. Getting the guns away from the
criminals and into the hands of honest, decent folk *is* the answer.

I really did butcher that quote eh?

I don't think more guns is the answer either. Although I wouldn't be
opposed to teachers packing, lol.

Nah. If teachers had guns. I'd have bullet wounds. Or a spot in the
morgue.

If you took all the guns away from all the people melted them down, and
destroyed all the factories. People would still kill each other just as
fast only in more gory ways. Thats what I think of when I think gun
control. People would use swords, knifes, cars, trucks, hammers, axes
and steel poles. what do guns have to do with it. Gun education is a
good idea, I learned to safely handle a firearm when I was 10, and the
only time out side the Army I have ever thought of killing someone was
with my truck. If they hadnt dived out of the way I would have.

i wonder if there was a "rock" control discussion back in the caveman
days?.gun control laws keep nthe good people honest while the criminals
have better weapons and more of them.much as i hate guns and would never
touch one..gun control is not the answer.

Gun control means hitting your target, try me.

you know when i put this post up, i really thought that with the amount
of libs on this site, there would be a lot of people bashing the gun
control policies of the US and bashing bush...not that i was trying to
pick a fight or anything but i wanted to catch a feel for what people
were thinking. I AM so damn glad that so far everyone in the thread has
made the point in their own way that taking away the guns from law
abiding citizens is not the answer,,,, youve impressed me in the regard
to commonn sense and civil liberties, thank you, there is hope for us
yet.... now if we could only figure out how to fix the problems of
people who shouldnt have the guns having the guns we'd all be in a much
better place.

thanks again

doc

Gun violence report for 2005

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060910-115800-7030r.htm

Americans were robbed and victimized by gun violence at greater rates
last year than the year before, even though overall violent and property
crime reached a 32-year low, the Justice Department said yesterday.
Analysts said these increases buttress reports from the FBI and many
mayors and police chiefs that violent crime is beginning to rise after a
long decline. Bush administration officials expressed concern but
stressed that it was too soon to tell whether an upward trend in
violence had begun.
Last year, there were two violent gun crimes for every 1,000 people,
compared with 1.4 in 2004, according to the department's Bureau of
Justice Statistics. There were 2.6 robberies for every 1,000 persons,
compared with 2.1 the year before.
"This report tells us more the serious events -- robbery and gun
crimes -- increased, and the FBI already told us homicides increased,"
said James Alan Fox, a professor of criminal justice at Northeastern
University in Boston.
"So while the report shows the more numerous but least serious
violence -- simple assaults, which is pushing and shoving -- went down,
the mix got worse in terms of severity. That wasn't a very good
trade-off," Mr. Fox said.
A preliminary FBI report in June on crimes reported to police showed
a 4.8 percent increase in the number of homicides and 4.5 percent
increase in the number of robberies last year.
Alfred Blumstein, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University in
Pittsburgh, said the rise in gun violence was particularly troubling.
"A major police effort to confiscate guns helped bring down the
surge in violent crime that occurred in the late 1980s and early 1990s,"
Mr. Blumstein said. "But gun distribution is easier now because we have
begun to back off gun control."
The statistics bureau's victimization report found that the overall
violent-crime rate was unchanged last year from 2004, at just more than
21 crimes for every 1,000 persons older than 12.
The property-crime rate fell last year from 161 crimes to 154 for
every 1,000 people because of a drop in household thefts. Both rates
were the lowest since the survey began in 1973.
Deputy Attorney General Paul J. McNulty noted the record-low rates
but said the government is "are concerned about" the increase in the
violent firearm crime rate.
"Whether the increase ... marks a change in the trend toward reduced
firearms victimization rates cannot be determined from one year's data,"
he said.
He said some cities are seeing violent-crime increases and noted
that the department has several programs in which federal agents join
state and local officers to combat gangs and drug abuse.
Unlike the FBI report culled from police blotters, the statistics
bureau makes estimates based on interviews with 134,000 people, so it
counts not only reported crime but also crimes the police never hear
about.

can you state the state rates

and if you do can you state the gun law of the state

using federal national stats is misleading

the 2 highest populated states have very restrictive gun control

and high crime rate

hows the stats in new hampshire ohio texas arizonia new mexico

where guns are permited in a more leanyent manner

I beg to differ on your information in regards to guns, and gun laws in
Australia, I suspect your information may not be correct...it appears by
the study below, there are very diffent statistics to the one's you
quoted..

And I am against the right to bear arms here in Australia...we have a
fairly standard, and somewhat dismal crime rate, but is comparable to
The States,per capita, even where the right to bear arms is allowed..

Guns don't solve crimes, they generate them, in my opinion..




Report: No mass shootings in Australia in 10 years since gun law reforms



The Associated PressPublished: December 14, 2006






CANBERRA, Australia: Australia hasn't witnessed a single mass shooting
since a massacre 10 years ago prompted nationwide gun law reforms,
according to a study Thursday that linked the tough laws with a dramatic
reduction in firearm deaths.

The federal and state governments agreed to ban semiautomatic and pump
action shot guns and rifles days after a lone gunman went on a rampage
at the Port Arthur tourist precinct in Tasmania state on April 28, 1996,
killing 35 and wounding another 18.

The massacre was the 13th mass shooting in Australia in 15 years. Mass
shootings had killed 104 victims and wounded another 52 since 1981,
according to the University of Sydney report published Thursday in the
journal Injury Prevention.

The federal government responded to the Port Arthur massacre by funding
a gun buyback scheme. More than 700,000 guns were surrendered by
Australia's adult population of 12 million.

The study found the buyback coincided with an end to mass shootings and
dramatic decreases in shooting deaths in Australia.


"The Australian example provides evidence that removing large numbers of
firearms from a community can be associated with a sudden and ongoing
decline in mass shootings and accelerated declines in total
firearms-related deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides," the
report concluded.

The report said it could not directly comment on the association between
the new gun laws and firearm death rates because of the observational
nature of the available data.

Prime Minister John Howard welcomed the report as proof that his gun
buyback had been a success.

"Gun-related deaths in Australia are still too high but this study shows
that governments and the community can make a difference," Howard said
in a statement.

Peter Whelan, president of the Australian lobby group Coalition of Law
Abiding Sporting Shooters Inc., said that attributing the improved
statistics to the buyback and tough laws was a "gross distortion."

The report ignored factors such as whether Australians were resorting to
other methods to kill or commit suicide, he said.

"For example, suicide by hanging has increased dramatically," Whelan
told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio.

But the researchers, headed by Prof. Simon Chapman, a former member of
the national anti-firearm lobby group Coalition for Gun Control, found
there was no evidence of method substitution in homicides or suicides
since guns became more restricted.

The report found that gun-related deaths per capita had been declining 3
percent annually in the 18 years before the new gun laws were announced.
That rate of decline doubled to 6 percent in the seven years after the
new laws were introduced.

The annual reduction in firearm homicides accelerated from 3 to 7.5
percent annually and firearm suicides, from 3 to 7.4 percent, the report
found.