Community > Science & Philosophy

Topic: Free Will
Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 12/30/08 09:36 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 12/30/08 09:37 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings. Isn't "will" simply a function of self-preservation? I don't know what you mean by self-preservation. We would have to agree on the premise of what the self actually is. Some people define self as the brain and body. I don't.

splendidlife Joined Fri 03/21/08 Posts: 1171	Tue 12/30/08 11:05 AM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings. Isn't "will" simply a function of self-preservation? I don't know what you mean by self-preservation. We would have to agree on the premise of what the self actually is. Some people define self as the brain and body. I don't. There are so many ways of using the philosophical word "will". In the context of my latest post (using "self-preservation"), I was speaking of the self with a small "s" (as in the "conscious" exercise of will) as opposed to some creative spark inspired by infinite Self. When I hear one speak of will of bacteria, I'm more inclined to see "will" as driven by self-preservation.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Tue 12/30/08 02:08 PM
I would tend to see it the other way around as self preservation is something that is programed into a life form for survival by the higher self or the higher mind. So, self preservation is a product of will the way I look at it. A bacteria has the will to survive and reproduce but I doubt if it exercises its choice of will in doing so. I think is is more like a biological machine programed to survive.

skypoetone Joined Sun 11/30/08 Posts: 59	Mon 01/05/09 01:51 PM
"Shouldn't this be in a religious forum?" ‘Free will’ is only free will if it is used WITHOUT outside influences. ANY outside influence determines how you use it, thus negates said free will. No it doesn't. How did you come to that conclusion? And the will has little to do with "religion." Religion in general, simply uses that term a lot. Deep down, they actually hate the idea of "free" will. They even try to distort it meaning to mean a choice between following Jesus or not, or between good or evil. Just because a decision is "influenced" does not mean that it is not an action of the will or that the will is not "free." The will involves an inner decision on where to place our attention and how to direct ourselves. It is the power to direct ourselves and our thoughts and feelings. The will is either weak or strong. It is always free. Your are endowed with a will naturally and it comes in the same degree as your conscious awareness. Even a bacteria has a will. It's influence and strength is according to it own conscious awareness of its surroundings. I agree with you, it is my belief that free will has nothing to do with religion, that's why I said WITHOUT outside influences.

mario218 Joined Sat 01/03/09 Posts: 6	Mon 01/05/09 03:23 PM
free will its a mindbogling concept is it ours or are we predestent to are actions but it is always nice to have an option and to question ourselfs

Citizen_Joe Joined Sat 04/12/08 Posts: 4036	Mon 01/05/09 07:16 PM
Do we have Free Will or are we completely determined? For the first time I believe I have complete free will. To an omniscient being, it's a cosmic joke. I live in the delusion of free will. I don't really care that some being can calculate the probabilities of me doing things out of character as I'm doing them out of character, therefore knowing what I'm going to do before I do it.

Strange Joined Mon 12/08/08 Posts: 153	Tue 01/06/09 06:27 AM
Comparing a brain to a computer is a good analogy. But a computer, no matter how good it is put together, will only do what it is programed to do. It will not go out and find its own programing and install it. (Unless it is programed to do so.) It will not uninstall programs it does not like. It does not think. It only processes information and runs programs. It only does what it is programed to do. So the brain is not the person and it does not make conscious choices, it only processes programs. Neither does the brain go out and find programs and install them or delete programs on its own that it does not like. The brain does not think. It only runs programs. It does not make decisions outside of its programing instructions. Most decisions people make are a result of programing and are mostly automatic and unconscious. In some computers there are learning programs that actually learn new things. There is probably a learning program in the human brain too that makes it appear that the brain can think, but it does not think, it only collects new information via sensory input and processes it. It may then make "decisions" according to the new information it has gathered but that is still only part of the programing. Thats nice and all, reminds me of the materialist movement hundreds of years ago. However explain the subjective experience of emotion. You ever see a computer feel sad? Perhaps they can simulate it but it is as similar to a simulated explosion. No, computers don't feel sad or happy or have any feelings at all. This is also true of the human brain. My point is that the brain is not the person. The brain is just a biological computer processing information. It does not feel emotions. It is not the self. Emotions come from the astral level of consciousness. well that explains everything......

electrickgreen Joined Wed 01/07/09 Posts: 23	Wed 01/07/09 08:48 PM
Do we have Free Will or are we completely determined? For the first time I believe I have complete free will. How about this. If anyone can come up with a definition of "free will" (I guarantee you all your assuming you do simply because its what you want to believe and not any conclusion you've come to vie logic - the two words together or the thought of it as a concept is a paradox) that makes logical sense, I'll believe it exist. Now go ahead shoot for it, and when I get back I'll promptly tell you why your wrong

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 01/07/09 09:10 PM
The Will can be either weak or strong. It is either used or it is not used. Everyone has a will. It is the power of self direction. (It is like having a gun. You can either use it or not.) The Will is inherent in all things in degrees. I don't like to use it in conjunction of the word "Free." That makes no sense. But a lot of people use it that way.

electrickgreen Joined Wed 01/07/09 Posts: 23	Wed 01/07/09 09:17 PM
So your defining will as an action then? What defines what action was taken? Personality? History? Memory? What is driving the will down the route it takes then? And why are those choices or routes taken? Does the will have a will?

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 01/07/09 09:22 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Wed 01/07/09 09:23 PM
So your defining will as an action then? What defines what action was taken? Personality? History? Memory? What is driving the will down the route it takes then? And why are those choices or routes taken? Does the will have a will? No, the will is not an action. The will is the director of the action. Consider that this is a holographic virtual reality, your body is a holographic icon (or character) through which you express yourself and experience this holodeck. You are the user. You are the player. You are the voice of the will above the program. You make the play. You are the will.

electrickgreen Joined Wed 01/07/09 Posts: 23	Wed 01/07/09 09:45 PM
Ok then same question just in a different sense. How does the director come to make a decision? What causes him to make the ones he does? Personality? History? Memory? If so doesn't that make it determinable? IE knowing the persons past allows you to determine their decisions? Rendering them subject to the events that happened around them as they grew and genes they were born with?

Strange Joined Mon 12/08/08 Posts: 153	Wed 01/07/09 10:02 PM
Freewill a defintion - Freewill is the idea that I can perform tasks based on abstract ideas that are not merely governed by emotions or a pleasure pain principle. It assumes that i can assess and decide free from constraints my own thoughts, ideas actions etc. It assumes that something else is governing behavior patterns besides a program reacting to external stimulis. That we are not constrainted by a set of rules in the pursuits and choices in our lives,that hings are not predetermed. Most of all it is the subjective experience which gives rise to these ideas. That I can choos between several possibilities or courses of action.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Wed 01/07/09 10:23 PM Edited by Jeanniebean on Wed 01/07/09 10:24 PM
Ok then same question just in a different sense. How does the director come to make a decision? What causes him to make the ones he does? Personality? History? Memory? The director is the true self. The soul, if you believe in souls. The decisions are made by the having of preferences and the having of preferences are acquired through experience, history, memory etc. If so doesn't that make it determinable? Make what determinable? IE knowing the persons past allows you to determine their decisions? No, because every individual has unique responses to unique experiences and hence develop unique and very different and unknown preferences. Rendering them subject to the events that happened around them as they grew and genes they were born with? Rendering them what?

electrickgreen Joined Wed 01/07/09 Posts: 23	Wed 01/07/09 11:39 PM
Freewill a defintion - Freewill is the idea that I can perform tasks based on abstract ideas that are not merely governed by emotions or a pleasure pain principle. It assumes that i can assess and decide free from constraints my own thoughts, ideas actions etc. It assumes that something else is governing behavior patterns besides a program reacting to external stimulis. That we are not constrainted by a set of rules in the pursuits and choices in our lives,that hings are not predetermed. Most of all it is the subjective experience which gives rise to these ideas. That I can choos between several possibilities or courses of action. Well then, since your "will" is free from all constraints, and isn't governed or dominated by any past, then its not really free, its actually 'random' and if its random, its not really a 'will' is it? IE if what governs it is indeterminable, then isn't it random? Why not? Hopefully people are catching along.

electrickgreen Joined Wed 01/07/09 Posts: 23	Wed 01/07/09 11:40 PM
Ok then same question just in a different sense. How does the director come to make a decision? What causes him to make the ones he does? Personality? History? Memory? The director is the true self. The soul, if you believe in souls. The decisions are made by the having of preferences and the having of preferences are acquired through experience, history, memory etc. If so doesn't that make it determinable? Make what determinable? IE knowing the persons past allows you to determine their decisions? No, because every individual has unique responses to unique experiences and hence develop unique and very different and unknown preferences. Rendering them subject to the events that happened around them as they grew and genes they were born with? Rendering them what? No see I don't care. Ill even give that for arguments sake. Lets pretend immaterial souls exist. Lets pretend they can even have a cause on the deterministic cause and effect laws of the universe. How does this soul make decisions? What does it base them off of? If its not based on anything like intelligence memory or past, then its technically free like you want it to be, but its also random. You lose either way.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 01/08/09 12:09 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Thu 01/08/09 12:33 AM
Ok then same question just in a different sense. How does the director come to make a decision? What causes him to make the ones he does? Personality? History? Memory? The director is the true self. The soul, if you believe in souls. The decisions are made by the having of preferences and the having of preferences are acquired through experience, history, memory etc. If so doesn't that make it determinable? Make what determinable? IE knowing the persons past allows you to determine their decisions? No, because every individual has unique responses to unique experiences and hence develop unique and very different and unknown preferences. Rendering them subject to the events that happened around them as they grew and genes they were born with? Rendering them what? No see I don't care. Ill even give that for arguments sake. Lets pretend immaterial souls exist. Lets pretend they can even have a cause on the deterministic cause and effect laws of the universe. How does this soul make decisions? What does it base them off of? If its not based on anything like intelligence memory or past, then its technically free like you want it to be, but its also random. You lose either way. Decisions are made after a thinking entity (a person, material or non material) chooses what their preferences are. Preferences are chosen after acquiring experience. Experience is what they like and what they do not like. What they want and do not want. These are preferences. Preferences are based on experiences, intelligence, memory or past etc. Not everyone responds to the very same experience the very same way. Each individual is unique. Each individual draws their own conclusions and has their own experiences and develops their own preferences. With preferences, they make their decisions. The "freedom" is the freedom to choose how to respond, how to feel, how to think, where to place your attention, what you decide to like or dislike,... then what decision to make. It is the uniqueness of individuals and their preferences and their will that is the cause the appearance of randomness. Also programed responses can cause the appearance of randomness.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Thu 01/08/09 12:11 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Thu 01/08/09 12:31 AM
The will is just the will. It is neither free nor in bondage. It is the power of self direction. You either have a strong will or a weak will. The will is not "random." The will is the CAUSE OF the appearance of RANDOMNESS.

electrickgreen Joined Wed 01/07/09 Posts: 23	Thu 01/08/09 02:26 AM
The will is just the will. It is neither free nor in bondage. It is the power of self direction. You either have a strong will or a weak will. The will is not "random." The will is the CAUSE OF the appearance of RANDOMNESS. "The will is just the will" hah. I think your getting frustrated. Whether you admit/realize it or not. Not to mention you also just said preferences are what a person likes, and what a person likes are their preferences, another sentence that proves nothing and says nothing. Experiences are all memory and can be confounded to brain structure, more determinable things. "Self-Direction" and what causes self direction to make the choices it does? It does go in a 'direction' but why? You can say "whatever IT wants, and it'll appear random" all you want, but like it or not it makes a decision. And these decisions in every instance are constrained or dominated by the things surrounding them and a knowledge of certain things. For example when people are asked "Are you six-feet tall?" People dont answer "Apple". Thats the kinda randomness your asking/arguing for, and not only is it illogical, it doesn't even happen in reality unless a person has a brain defect. You've taken your argument so far away from reality to protect something that doesn't even inherently make sense.

Strange Joined Mon 12/08/08 Posts: 153	Thu 01/08/09 04:14 AM
Freewill a defintion - Freewill is the idea that I can perform tasks based on abstract ideas that are not merely governed by emotions or a pleasure pain principle. It assumes that i can assess and decide free from constraints my own thoughts, ideas actions etc. It assumes that something else is governing behavior patterns besides a program reacting to external stimulis. That we are not constrainted by a set of rules in the pursuits and choices in our lives,that hings are not predetermed. Most of all it is the subjective experience which gives rise to these ideas. That I can choos between several possibilities or courses of action. Well then, since your "will" is free from all constraints, and isn't governed or dominated by any past, then its not really free, its actually 'random' and if its random, its not really a 'will' is it? IE if what governs it is indeterminable, then isn't it random? Why not? Hopefully people are catching along. I nevr said it was and your referring to the idea of absolutes which really cant be proven, as i said its a subjective expeience. Also the universe has a certain amount of predictabilty and a certain amount of non predictability. Some aspects appear random but you cant say there is no cause and effect, both these aspects exist, at least subjectively and neither can be proven as absolutes. I gave you a defintion which stated it is defined as a subjective experience. If your trying to argue freewill is dependent on predetermanism or materialism as it is refferred to, think of quantum pysics in responce, if youre suggesting randomess drop an object maybe it will fall up, though i doubt it.