I don't think it would have mattered.

"Jesus" may not have been a lone case.

The Romans crucified a lot of people unjustly in those days. The story of Jesus may very well have been a generic story that simply arose from the 'crucifying times'.

Some people have made a case that no such man even existed and the whole story was fabricated in the first place.

I personally think there was a man who lived and preached against the Old Testament (that's what Jesus did).

I also believe that whoever he was he was very familiar with Eastern Mysticism and the teachings of Buddha because his teachings were basically identical to the teachings of Buddha (once you remove the demagoguery that was obviously added in the later gospels).

It's crystal clear that Jesus could not have been a virgin birth arranged by the God of Abraham. Jesus didn't even agree with the the things that the God of Abraham had taught.

He most certainly didn't die to pay for anyone else's 'sins'. That's clearly not what happened.

The rumors of his resurrection are most likely just that - rumors.

It simply doesn't fly that the God of Abraham would have arranged this drama just to appease himself for the sins of man. That's truly an absurd notion if you stop and think about it even for a second.

Such a God would not be a righteous God at all, especially given the fact that this God is supposed to be all-knowing and would have known how this event would adversely affect future generations.

Clearly this event was not arranged by any supreme being.

Now, back to your question.

I've seriously given this much thought. What would I have done if I had been one of Jesus' disciples?

I wouldn't have put up with it. As a good friend I would tell him that if he's planning on confronting the Romans and upsetting money tables in the name of God, I would not back him up on that. That very act was against what he had taught.

If he merely would have followed his own teachings he would have never been crucified.

Of course, I personally don't believe the stories anyway.

There are other stories around. The earliest Christians believed that the Jew murdered Jesus. They may not have even crucified him on a cross, but then again maybe they did. How they killed him is unimportant.

No one could blame them if they had killed Jesus for the God of Abraham had instructed them to do this very thing!

The God of Abraham had instructed them that it is their duty to murder heathens and blasphemists. Jesus was both a heathen and a blasphemist. Jesus denounced the teachings of the God of Abraham, that makes him a heathen. He clearly claimed to be one and the same with the father. That makes him a blasphemist with respect to the Old Testament.

If the Jews had murdered him they were only doing what the God of Abraham had commanded them to do, so no one could blame them, not even God.

This was the early rumors of Jesus. Some of the earliest Christians followed Jesus like a Buddha, not a God. They didn't believe in the resurrection. They were just following his moral philosophy (which actually went against the traditions of the Old Testament)

Later authoritarians didn't like these rumors, so they enshrined Jesus as the "Son of the God of Abraham" and wrote up the gospels that are in the Holy Bible today. They used Jesus to revitalize their original horrid Old Testament.

So Jesus was crucified twice. Once physically, and the second time in character by the writers of the New Testament.

Christians today continue to crucify Jesus by nailing him to the Old Testament and the God of Abraham.

I personally feel that its very sad. Quite pathetic actually. They spread so much hate in the name of Jesus, and they act like they are doing something great. It's truly sad.

I agree James it is sad.

I always would like to imagine that perhaps Jesus survived in actuality and lived to a tender old age in Asia meditating on his experiences and keeping a low profile

Well don't be surprised! There are still people believing Elvis is alive!

If Jesus was God in flesh then he could have done it a different way. For example it is said he walked on water, he made a blind man see again then he could have said "thou shall not kill!"

if thou shall not kill then I shall not die for I have written it in the bible. It is not allowed to kill for that is a sin.

He should have perhaps emphasize his rules and will and not allow it to happen to him.

Now that is if we see it as a study perspective of the bible - seeing jesus as a god

Now if we see Jesus as a human, I can see he was a man of passion showing the roman rule a different type of problem solving by trying not to use violence to resolve a problem. That threatened Jewish belief system and Roman belief system.

To have control and order is to install fear of your superior. Jesus challenged that I think and it was not well received.

I wonder if Jesus did write his accounts what would they really look like?

Would he agree of what is written in the bible today or would he disagree?

he would agree for the most part about what the bible says he said, the rest , welll,,I'll keep silent on that issue, I don't wanna get NOTBN

It is okay to express how you feel. I am the last person who bashes anyones belief system. Those who know me can confirm. As a matter of fact it is recommended that you say what you know. I may learn something for a change

I've heard tale that he actually had written some things but they were all destoryed because the powers in charge didn't like what he had to say.

I personally feel that it's crystal clear that Jesus could not possible have been 'sent' by the God of Abraham via a vigin birth. The things that are attributed to Jesus simply don't line up with what the God of Abraham had wanted.

Moreover, I personally don't believe that the creator of this unvierse could possibly have been that demented to somehow be appeased by having his own son slaughted on a pole so that he could forgive man their sins.

To me that's just far too absurd. If our creator is truly like that I seriously feel sorry for him. That would be a truly sick God.

We could only pray that there is a God above that God to help him with his mental problems.

Seriously.

I would rather atheism turns out to be true than to believe that our creator is like the Bible claims. That's the worst nightmare I could possibly imagine. And I'm not talking about for my own personal sake. I'm talking for the sake of all humanity, believers and non-believers alike.

I mean, worshiping the biblical God in the hopes of appeasing it would be like worshiping Adolph Hiter thinking that this would somehow save your butt from his mentally ill mind.

It would truly be that futile to worship such a demented God. A God that is appeased by blood sacrifices?

I can't believe that anyone believes that the creator of this universe could be that sick.

Truly, it just utterly amazes me at how many people believe in this story.

I'm just truly disillusioned with humanity. And they can't even see that it's just Greek Mythology all over again in a slightly different guise.

They must truly be desperate to believe in anything other than death.

They just have no imagination. If they don't have a mythology to believe in then they don't know what to believe.

That's all I can figure.

No I would not have prevented the crucifixion of Jesus.If you read the bible Jesus did not want to die.He said "father take this cup of poison away from me".God sacrificed his son to take away our sins and because he loved the people of this world.In the 3 years Jesus preached he had millions of people that followed him and would probably do anything he asked them to do including overthrowing rome.He certainly would have no trouble starting a large army in a short amount of time.

Before the death of Jesus it was common for God to speak to his people and to interfere with current events.God often scorned and killed people including whole cities for the sins they were commiting.If Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins God would probably still be bringing his wrath to the people.Since Jesus died and the sin of the people was forgiven it was no longer necessary for God to interfere with the people as their debt was paid in full.

Yes Christianity would still exist and would be as popular as it is today.Jesus had millions of followers even before he died.He did things that people thought were impossible.He raised the dead,he healed the sick.There was truly nothing he couldn't do.If there was anyone who could be Godlike it was him.

Smiless-There is much confusing about Jesus and God.You have probably heard people saying he was God in the flesh.God is God.Jesus was the son of God.Jesus was human but God gave him power to do great wonders.It would not be stretching the truth to say Jesus could do anything God could do since God granted him the power.In this sense he would seem like God.But yes there is God and then his son Jesus.Jesus prayed to God everyday.Jesus referred to him as "His father".

People often say that Christians shouldn't be in Wars or the military.I think we need to look at what we are fighting here.Wars always involve good against evil.The entire bible is pretty much written on this concept.So is it wrong for Christians to fight wars against evil?I don't believe so.The bible cleary wants us to take a stand against evil.I also don't believe God wants us to stand around and get slaughtered in mass numbers because we wont fight back.

Jesus did not seek wisdom from Buddhism or any other religon.Jesus preached from the bible even when he was a child.He gained his wisdom from the bible.When he talked he almost always spoke relating to the bible.Jesus did not beleive in any other Gods.

There are two major problems with this Thomas.

First off, it implies that even God had to make a sacrifice in order to pay for the sins of man. That simply doesn't make sense in light of the idea that "With God all things are possible".

If God is so all-powerful, then God would not need to sacrifice anything to forgive man his sins.

The other problem is that it's inconsistent with the Biblical picture as a whole. And the reason has to do with the Great Flood.

If God so loved the world that he was willing to give his "only begotten son" to save it, then why didn't he do that the first time around?

This implies a God who is doing things by trial and error and trying different things at different times in history.

But the Biblical God is supposed to know what he's doing.

It just doesn't wash with the larger picture of the whole religion.



There are two blatant facts.

Jesus was missing from the time he was 12 until the time he was about 30.

During those missing years many scholars do indeed believe that Jesus traveled to the far east and learned the ways of the Eastern Mystics.

The moral teachings of Jesus are just to similar to the teachings of Buddha to have not been from the same origins.

Also, the teachings of Jesus conflict with the teachings of the Bible anyway. Jesus denounced the stoning of sinners which clearly the Jews were still doing in his day because this was indeed the teachings of the Old Testament.

He also denounce the seeking of revenge (an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth). Instead, Jesus taught forgiveness (Turn the other cheek).

So Jesus most certainly did not learn his teachings from the Bible. That's crystal clear. Jesus did not agree with the Old Testament in many ways.

Jesus even appealed to a place in the Old Testament where it said, "Ye are also Gods".

This is much more along the lines of Eastern Mysticism.

Jesus taught that he and the father are one. That's Eastern Mysticism.

We aren't talking about worshiping other Gods. There are no other Gods to worship.

There's no such things as many Gods. That's a fallacy to begin with.

Jesus was referring to the creator and pervader of this unviverse. The same creator and pervader that the Eastern Mystics understood.

The whole idea of Gods opposing one another stems from Greek Mythology.

The very idea of a jealous God who demands that we put no other Gods before him is silly. The creator of this universe knows there are no other Gods. So it would be utterly silly for the creator of this universe to be a jealous God.

Jesus recognized that the ancient biblical God of Abraham was indeed a manmade myth that got off track. He was trying to put people back on a path of love and acceptance rather than judging their brothers and stoning sinners to death.

He totally denounced the old ways in favor of the pure love that had been taught by Buddha.

It's not a matter of worshiping differnet Gods. There are no other Gods to worship. There's only one creator and it didn't write the Old Testament, and that was the real message of Jesus.

And please don't bother posting scripture from the New Testament, because it all contains demagogouery written by the men who were attempting to use Jesus to resurrect the Old Testament.

This is what Christianity (the religion) has become. It's an attempt to use Jesus to resurrect the Old Testament. But Jesus did not agree with those myths. So the gospels contain lies. Pure and simple.

This isn't an attempt to bash someone's religion. Just look at the facts.

Why would you want to believe the horrid things that the Bible claims. Why would you believe that the divine creator of this universe could be as demented as the Bible claims.

Sending is son as a sacrifice (unto himself!).

What sense does that even make????

It's makes absolutely no sense at all for a God to be appeasing itself by sacrificing it's own son as a sacrifical lamb unto itself.

Just think about it. It's totally nonsensical.

I have no desire to destroy your faith in God. I believe in God too.

But I most certainly don't believe in the Old testament. God just isn't like that. Those stories were made up by men as excuses for their male-chuavinistic behavior, and as an excuses to murder 'heathens' (i.e. anyone who didn't agree with their belief system).

No divine supreme being would have ever asked anyone to murder heathens.

Just think about it.

How dispicable would God need to be for those stories to be true?

Normally I don't respond to your posts but this time you actually gave me something to debate instead of your usual "Everything is made up and fake attitude".

First off how are you going to explain that Jesus was prophesized in the old testament?Do you think that it was just quiencidence everything happened just as the bible did?If the old testament is Gods word(which it is)then you can't ignore that is it biblical fact.Why would the people who wrote the old testament even put it in there since they already had their laws and God.It wouldn't make alot of sense unless it was from the word of God.

Jesus existed not only because he was prophesized but also because he was witnessed by millions of people.Putting Christianity aside Romans gave testimony of his existance.Non believers said he was there.History says he was there.I think there is few scholars both religious and non religious that would claim Jesus never existed.Even Islam talks about Jesus as a prophet.

There is no way Jesus took advice or had any desire to meet Buddah!Do you really think when Jesus talked to God he said things like "You know I met this other God named Buddah and he taught me all these great things and blah blah".God and Jesus both warned against false Gods and false idols.God and Jesus's commandments are both "do not have any other Gods besides me".Even if he did it would be a sin in Gods eyes and the bible said Jesus never sinned.Although it's fair to say Buddhism is similar in teachings to Christianity there is nothing Jesus or God said in reference to Buddism.I can turn the table the same way and say Buddhism got its ideas from Christianity.Both don't mention the either so I think it's a poor argument.


Do you really think that if God created the earth and everything in it that he didn't have the power to arrange a virgin birth?This is ridiculous.I am surprised you brought it up.Once again that was prophesized in the old testament.

Jesus did die for our sins.If you don't think he died for our sins then what did he die for?Jesus said he didn't want to die so for what other reason would God want to sacrifice him?

You think the resurrection is just a rumor?Then what happened to the body?Don't you realize a huge rock was in front of the tomb and was guarded by two soldiers and if they let someone steal the body would pay with their lifes.Was this also not propheszied in the old testament?How do you explain the witness's account?

The bible says that God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son Son,that whosoever believeth on him should not perish,but have everlasting life."That is your answer plain and simple.He loved the world.He loved the people.He wanted them to live forever.He loved them so much he sacrificed his son to us.It's the most unselfish act of love this world has ever seen.


I don't know where you are getting your "other stories" from the early Christians.Since the new testament was not written yet,Christiany didn't exist.So the earliest Christians were the ones who wrote the new testament and the 12 diciples.Jesus practiced what he preached.Your not going to find any examples of him preaching one thing and practicing another.Jesus also never said..."Don't do what the bible says and do this instead".

Your whole blasphemy theory is riduclous.You think Jesus blasphemed against God.Jesus was one and the same of the father(as like you are blood related to your own father and therefore part of him).If you remember Pilate asked Jesus "are you God".Jesus said "that's what you say".There is your answer plain and simple.

There is little doubt Jesus's diciples and his followers would give their very lives to him.Many of the disciples did die painful deaths for him.His followers followed him no matter where he went.Many times they ran out of food and water and he fed them.

Your theories do not mesh with what the bible says.If you don't want to believe it then that's your business but unless you can prove these statements with biblical account it's just nothing but theory on your part.

If someone teaches a new and different religious belief with signs and wonders, then that person must be put to death.

So, in other words, according to the bible, we were right in killing Jesus.

No because it depends on if you are getting your power from God or someone else.If you are getting your power from God and you confess it is from God then most people should not doubt where he is getting his power from.Jesus was a sacrafice.It was not the peoples decision it was Gods decision.

On the other side of the coin it is true that the Jews were responsible for Jesus death.They claimed that he said he was God and that was punishable by death.

Well from a historical standpoint, the Romans were killing a lot of people during that time period. It was not a matter of "getting away from the Roman Empire." They occupied that entire region during the reign of Tiberius. It would have been easy to just get swept up in that. They were crucifying women, children, didnt matter.

I tend to feel that the character of Jesus was a legend. He was a conglomeration of accounts of those who were murdered. These people had no TV. They just told stories and that was their entertainment.

If that's your theory then how do you explain Pilatess comment "this man has broken no laws".Pilate wanted him set free.It was the Jews who wanted him executed.So basically you have the blood thirsty romans who didn't want to execute Jesus.Even if this wasn't a big event(which it wouldn't be since like you said they killed people for entertainment)why would everyone write about it?If he was just another man he would have been ignored.Why would the Romans(including the highest ranking)give confessions and even include writing books of the bible if it wasn't important.The Romans were as Atheist and Godless as they come.

Tiberius didnt want Jesus executed? The Romans were Pagan sir. That means they observed many gods and Goddesses during this time period.

Tiberius had no role in that what so ever.There was only two people in the Roman empire who were involved in the prosecution of Jesus.Pontius Pilate and Herod Antipas.I forgot that Romans had their different Gods.

I found this out while reaserching...In 313 AD Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire.

Who killed Jesus is irrelevant. Tiberius wanted ALL Christians killed. If you're a devout Christian, Jesus would tell you not to blame but to forgive. If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, you'd have no route to salvation. So in a way you should be thanking those who executed him, not blaming them.

What does Constantin's conversion have to do with anything? We are speaking of the reign of Tiberius because it was under his rule that Jesus was executed.

I agree.I only posted the bit on Constantin because I found it while researching and thought it would be helpfull for future discussion as far as when Christianity was legalized.It wasn't part of this post.

Although Tiberius was a ruler he didn't know anything about Jesus since the trial of Jesus was a one day event.Even after he died Pilate told all his men to not talk about what had happend.

I just quoted myself from another thread in which we were discussing Roman Emperors.

Krimsa said:

Dear Thomas,

Could you give me a short story of what you think would happen if Jesus was spared from death at the time? What would have happened to Christianity? Would it be even larger today in numbers or would it have less believers? Would the world be in worse shape or in better shape?

Now I know that in the Bible it says that this is not what happend, yet I ask you to reverse time and see what would actually happen if he Jesus lived to a tender age of 70 years.

If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, Christianity would have no route to salvation. The bottom falls out and the foundation crumbles.

That is a answer many would agree with, yet as you know many will also not agree on because he could still have a following even if he managed to stay alive. I figure the Bible would be written a bit differently perhaps. Afterall, he was the superstar of his time wasn't he?

but let us say that you are right with your answer and Christianity couldn't sustain, how would it look like from that day until today as we speak in history.

How would the Jews come about or even the Roman Empire? Would they be stronger or still crumble eventually?

Would Jesus still be talked about in Rome or would he grow in a different country with a new set of followers?

What would be the biggest group of religion organization that most people believe in if Christianity wasn't the biggest anymore?
How would history be if Jesus survived?

Thank you for your input.