eternal is said to be that which has no beginning or end and void of time ..but once something becomes self aware time then becomes a factor and a beginning is thus created ...

therefore "eternal" can only equate to unawareness and does not equate to "always was"..

anything consider to be "always was" can only exist in the realm of unconsciousness which means to claim that God "always was" would be referring to when God was unaware or achieving consciousness

therefore that God supposedly used the term "I Am" can only express his existence not his eternalism

Whatever you say big guy.

I'm not about to argue with someone who looks like the hulk and talks like he's on acid.

Ok Funches here's some thoughts for you.


Imagine you're God.

Let's just pretend that you are aware. But all you are aware of is that you exist. You perceive yourself to be existing in a sea of white light. You can "see" the white light not with physical eyeballs, but with your mind's eye. You have no physical body.

All you know is that you are a thinking mind in a sea of white light. That's all you know. Period. You don't even think about this in terms of 'words' because you don't know what language is.

All you know is that you perceive yourself to exist and all you can do is "be" in this sea white light. You "look around" using your mind's eye. All you see no matter what 'direction' you look is the same white light. Maybe you intuitive feel that this white light is '3-dimensional' or maybe you don't. All you know for sure is that this appears to be all that exist. Just your consciousness in a sea of white light.

You begin to ponder the following thought (not in words) but just intuitively. Owl have to type it in here with words because I have no other means of conveying the idea to you,...

You think to yourself intuitively, "What am I"?

As you are thinking your surroundings suddenly go dark. All you see in your mind's eye is blackness. Then you 'remember' having seen the light and as soon as you remember it, it appears. You are sounded by light.

Then you remember the darkness and as soon as you remember it your surroundings go pitch black.

You think, "Let there be light", and there is light.

You think, "Let there be darkness", and there is darkness.

You suddenly realize that you are the one who is control of the light and dark. Whichever you wish to be will be. All you need to do is think of it, and so it is.

Then you get curious and think to yourself (again without words but just intuitively), I wonder if I can think of half light, and half dark. And as soon as you have this thought you see half light and half dark.

Then you start playing with various degrees and patterns and shapes. And you begin to realize that you can create anything you so desire using pure thought alone.

You become so involved with this that you just become totally absorbed with playing with shapes and forms and you discover that anything you can imagine will be so.

Before long you've got a universe going and you imagine being animals within this universe with all sorts of sensations. And you lose yourself in the story as you make it up like someone getting lost in a novel.

Maybe you even realize that you can be more than one animal at a time and bump into yourself but actually see it as being something external to you.

You go on to create a very complex world of complex beings and societies and you get totally lost in this dream.

Eventually at some point you get tired of the dream. It gets old. And you get bored with it. So you decide to forget that you ever did it. And it is so,..

At that moment,...

You perceive yourself to be existing in a sea of white light. You can "see" the white light not with physical eyeballs, but with your mind's eye. You have no physical body.

All you know is that you are a thinking mind in a sea of white light. That's all you know. Period. You don't even think about this in terms of 'words' because you don't know what language is yet.

...

This scenario continues forever.

What would the concept of time even mean if you keep erasing your memory?

If existence is nothing more than your own thoughts, and you erase those thoughts, they no longer exist. And what sense would it even make to say that they had existed in a "past". Who's past? What is a past but a record of what had previously occurred. If there is no longer any record, then there is no longer any past.

Time is meaningless to God.

"Abracadbra" if time is meaningless to God then how long does it takes God to get bored and erase his memory ..

also how long would it take God to once again become conscious of the white light and how long after that would God once again become self aware and them how long would it take God to regain his total memory and realize that he is God and after that how long would it take God to once again get bored

which means "Abracadbra".. according to your senerio time does play a role and as you know the inclusion of time voids any claims of being eternal

as long as God is unaware and lack consciousness he exist in the realm of eternal but the moment God became "aware" then time would begin and God would cease to be eternal

Funches wrote:


".....eternal is said to be that which has no beginning or end and void of time ...."

God is Eternal...God is the beginning and the end.....the Alpha and the Omega..the Everlasting Father....God Almighty..ever was and evermore shall be...

God is I AM.....

"MorningSong" ..God's own words shows that he is not eternal ..God signified that he is the "beginning" and the "end" ..neither can be acheived without the factor of time ..and time always negate the claim of eternalism

Funches.....

God exists in ETERNITY...

Not in TIME....


Time is limited to our " earth time" only....

"MorningSong" ....it took God six days to create the universe ...according to the bible..six days "earth time"

also Jesus as God was limited by time and had a beginning and end ..God also created the flood and stopped it after 40 days ....it's the bible that limit God to time

anytime God intervenes into human affairs time then becomes a factor and he cease being eternal

In the scenario that I'm hypothesizing there is never a time when God is unconscious.

God is always conscious in the sense of being 'aware'. Always.



Instantaneously. As soon as he erases his memory of all that had 'previously' occured he would then instantaneoulsy be conscious of the pure state of white light devoid of any memory.

The so-called 'past' would not longer exist. It was but a memory and now it has been erased. It just a change of state.



There would be a sense of 'time' during this process.

This is because during this process (durion the actual manifestation of the universe), things are becoming increasingly complex. (i.e. there is a change in entropy)

In truth entropy = time.

There is no such thing as 'pure philosophyical time'

Time is simply the recognition that things are changing in their complexity (i.e. they appear to be 'aging').

During the manifestation cycle (the physical unfolding of the universe), time has meaning. (i.e. entropy is changing)

However to speak about time in terms of a pure existence (i.e. when god is experiencing the state of pure white light with no features), time has no meaning.

Some Hindus suggest that God creates (or becomes) the universe for a given length of 'time' (i.e. the age of the physical universe.

They then claim that God 'rests' in thestate of pure bliss (total white light without form) for an equal amount of time before resuming a new incarntion cycle of the universe.

However, this is clearly just a philosophical notion to satisfy the desires of philosophers.

The idea of putting a 'time' value on the pure stated of total uninvolvement is truly a meaningless concept because 'time', as we precieve it, truly is nothing more than a measurement of the change in entropy of a system.

In a system of featureless pure white light there would be no entropic change, and therefore our notion of 'time' would be a meaningless concept.

It's a difficult concept for us, as humans, to wrap our minds around. The concept of a timeless time.

Actually the indigenous natives of Australia do seem to have some innate concept of this timeless time.

They call it 'Dreamtime'. You might want to do a search on "Australian Dreamtime".

Or maybe Jess Lee could offer some insight into this concept. I think it's an extremely difficult concept for us westerners to wrap our minds around because we can only think of time in terms of entropic change.

If there is any concept of 'time' for God it would be a totally different kind of concept than how we think of time.

That's about all I can offer on that.

I don't pretend to understand it myself, but at the same time I think I do have some inkling of understanding.

A scientific-based book that touches briefly on these concepts is entitled "About Time" by Paul Davies.

I'm sure there are other books as well.

God's time is not the same as our time. It's not based on entropic change like our perception of time.

We live from past to future.

God lives in a primordial 'now'.

We can join God in the 'now' by simplying always living in the moment. This is what many religious sages taught, including Jesus. Take no thought of the morrow the morrow will take care of itself. The only thing that truly has meaning is 'now'.

That's really all I can offer.

God lives in the primodial 'now'.

The eternal 'now'. There is no past, there is no future. All that exists is an ever changing 'now'.

It is in this way that God is eternal.

Just for the record, I'm not supporting any Mediterranean mythological ideas of creation times.

I was just speaking of 'god' in the purest sense of being. Not in any sense of manmade mythologies or religions.

"Abracadbra" ...can you explain how you know this

assumption? ...Bible? ...God?

"Abracadbra" wouldn't "in the purest sense of being" also be described as being part of manmade mythology and/or religion

I'm sorry Funches.

My error.

I should have preceded my every word with:

"In my personal opinion relative to the context of the philosophical notions being discussed in this thread I would like to offer the following food for thought for consideration for whatever it's worth,..."

How's that?

Funches...just because God created in 6 days..and rested on the seventh...doesn't make God any less ETERNAL.

Just because God is able to dwell in the heart of a believer ...

and

Just because God is able to even cross over into Time ( when He came to dwell earth in the flesh, and "mingle" among us)....
does not make God any less ETERNAL.

Just because God knows the very hairs on your head ....
and even sees when a tiny little robin falls...doesn't make God any less ETERNAL.

Funches....man tries to Limit INFINITE God ...with man's FINITE Understanding .

God's Ways are MUCH Higher than Our Ways...

His Thoughts are Much Higher than Our Thoughts....

God is SOOOOO Much More Higher than we could Ever even begin to Percieve or Imagine Him to Be.


Once More....

......God is ETERNAL....


.....Forever.... Without End.....

"Abracadbra" you may as well say that the Lucky Charms Leperchuan told you ..I just merely asked where you got that concept of God from ...did it just magically appear like a pot of Gold or did you get it from your "Ex-Christianity" mentors perhaps

"MorningSong" god can only be eternal when he is conscious of the fact which would indicate that a realm of unconsciousness exist that he is not aware of that pre-exist him

Finite thinking.

Something can exist that is outside of time... In which case your theory becomes untenable... It is base on muddled thinking... Premise 1 is like this-therefore premise 2 is true and is like this - which makes premise 3 true and like this...

Finite thinky...

I am is.

It does not presuppose either eternal nor finite... It does however exist. To a being that is unaffected by time existance is allways.

All time would be available at the moment of Iam.

All moments would be I AM.

well "AdventureBegins" finite thinking is more in line with those that limit their thinking within an unprovable belief and not beyond it

only someone that existed before God existence can make the claim that God is eternal ..for anyone else to make such an outragous claim ...would be delusional

Eastern Mysticism.

I studied Buddhism and Hinduism in the 70's and 80's. And also read a lot of books on the topic by Alan Watts. (good reading by the way)

This is the basic pantheistic view of god.

Also as I mentioned the native Australians also talk about a concept called "Dreamtime" which is a timeless time.

No, it wouldn't have anything to do with Christianity. Christianity thinks of God as a human-like Santa Claus or Zeus-like diety. The Biblical view of God is almost Identical to Greek Mythology in form, including the God's lust for blood sacrificies.

They don't get deep into the philosophical concepts. Their religion is more like a child's bedtime fairytale. God is just like Santa Claus except he does very mean things to people who don't worship him. That's about the only difference between the Santa Claus fairytale and the Christian fairytale. The Christian God is a lot meaner when you've been naughty, but he still wears a Rolex.

so "Abracadbra" wouldn't that indicate that pantheists worship a God that is not conscious or aware ..a non-deity