all the Christians here think or believe that the first chapter of genesis was/is written in the sequence as stated? meaning is the creation story laid out exactly as it occurred day by day? it seems to indicate that simply by saying the number of days from one thru seven - i understand this - but since i don't have the holy spirit to tell me absolutely without doubt, i was wondering if all The C's, are in agreement on this or not - or if sharpshooter or others have a different take on this and if so what is/are those takes?

Imagine making a movie.

Scene one might be shot first...then maybe scene two and threee will be shot next....and scene four and five following.....
and then the producer may go all the way back to scene one ,and do a few more shots...just for scene one.

But just because the producer
has GONE BACK...to do some more
shots for
scene one...
DOESN'T mean
the extra shots taken
for scene one, are to
take place
LATER IN THE MOVIE.

same with the writing of some "scenes" from genesis

Yes, I believe the first chapter of Genesis is the generalized synopsis of creation, accomlished to completion by the sixth day - as recorded.

However, I think there is room for a little literary liscence here. For instance - verse 16 says he created two great lights. In verse 17 it says he put them in the expanse of the sky. Now I think that it is worthy to consider that he merely created them in place. Not that he made them in a shop and delivered them to the heavens - if you get my point. So too with verse 1. I believe this verse is a summary statement to all that is to follow. As is the case of chapter two giving a more detailed account as to what had occured in chapter 1. As a christian - I understand that the creation account of chapter one is written in a fashion that will be understood by man, and not a Diary account - or a recipe for creation as a means of documenting the event. I believe there is enough detailed information of the account to grasp exactly what took place and convey the "what" of creation - without the necessity of the "how". As to the purpose of the creation in the order it is presented - I think it is relevant, though I could not detail how I think it is so. Just that it seems to provide the answers that I need when questions arise. Especially when I attempt to examine the claims of Darwinian evolution.

I understand Eljay, all that pesky rationalization and critical thinking skills required to fully understand the origin of humanity and Darwin's outlandish claims. Pfft.

so then do you believe what is stated to happen on the third day really preceeded wat took place on the fourth?

In other words god made the grass and herbs and fruit trees before he made the sun?

if these 6 days of creation took plce explain to me how the stars in all the heavens brought forth light in a day upon the earth - if it takes hundreds or thousands of years for the light to travel at the speed of light to reach here to be seen? that doesn't sound far fetched to you? no i guess it wouldn't because your god is capable of going againt that which he himself put into motion.

The problem with that to me is, why put into motion laws to or that govern the behavior of all things if your not going to abide by them? what's the point?

Exactly. The amount of faith required to accept the premises of evolution, and the art of isotropic dating so far exceeds even a casual understanding of the scriptures - that one has to truely appreciate anyone who swallows Darwinian evolution as true, considereing the tremendous lack of evidence to suport any of the premises.

That is a faith that is far beyond comprehension.

Your point is an example of taking the cronological of Genesis and trying to reason it through to what Man has determined is the natural order of things - or an "evolutionary mindset" if you will. As to your reference of the problem of light travelling to earth, Light was the first thing created. It existed before there was even "the first day". So your premise that the sun is the primary source of light is subjective at best, and to accdept that as fact and say the scriptures don't make sense is assuming that man, with limited knowledge has more understanding than the infinite God who created both the light and plants in the first place. Forgive me if I don't share in your confusion. Perhaps you should not attempt to take so much credit for this type of reasoning up against what the one who created it, and work through your misgivings as a fault with your logic rather than the account. That's always a good place to start. Then you perhaps the idea that the creator, having decited that the appropriate time to create the grass, herbs and fruit tree's, and when to place the sun to sustain these things had a slightly better idea as to when each of these events should have occured. Since we know that man cannot go into the lab and create grass, herbs and fruit tree's on his own - why would we assume he has understanding as to the correct order of creating the elements necessary to sustain these things. When to begin with - man's understanding of the sun and it's effect on this planet is severely limited in the first place.

So - to answer your question... I start with determining the order of the creation in Genesis and how it fits into my reasoning, and where I have difficulties, I question man's presumption's first - not God's statement. And I think it a matter of great folly to even consider that "perhaps Moses didn't hear God correctly", so it's not worth bringing that point up.

Yeah, I guess its easier just to have a magical book that claims to give you all the answers if you only have faith. I have already addressed your issues with both radiocarbon dating and isotropic dating methods. The half life of carbon-14 is 5730 years which will produce accurate results of items of up to 70,000 years old. What you dont seem to understand is that radiometric dating involves not two but several possible isotopes for comparison. The half lives of these range anywhere from 0.7 to 48.6 billion years.

Im sorry but where were those Adam and Eve bones again? They should only be around 10,000 years old. We have the skeletal remains of crucifixion victims from the time of Jesus. So I think the least you can do is offer something, anything that would indicate that these outlandish biblical fables are authentic and would therefore warrant a literal interpretation.

1) We have one heel bone of someone who was crucified, not remains (plural).

2) The amount of Carbon 14 created is constant (not really, it's based on Solar output and the amount of carbon in the Earth's atmosphere, but scientists pretend it is), while the amount of life on earth is not. Therefore in a world with more life, there would be less Carbon 14 in each creature (since Carbon 14 is evenly distributed to all creatures (not true, some animals process Carbon 14 at different rates, but scientists like to ignore that fact). Depending upon the lifespan of the creature, the amount of carbon 14 would vary. In a world with 33% Oxygen atmosphere (vs 20% today) less C14 would be created (because there would be less Carbon Dioxide in the Atmosphere). Scientists know all of that, but they ignore it. Now you know it and must ask yourself why scientists would ignore such important facts about Carbon dating.

!) Obviously you have never heard of Yehohanan Spider.. I will address your second question on a different post.

From these fragile bones, a Rumanian-born anatomist and anthropologist at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, Nicu Haas, was able to put together a surprisingly detailed picture of the young man: in his mid-20s at the time of his death, he was of average height for the period (5 ft. 5 in.), had delicate, pleasing features that seemed to approach the Hellenistic ideal, probably wore a beard, and apparently had never performed any really arduous labor—indicating his possible upper-class origins. Except for the injuries inflicted during his crucifixion, he seemed to have been in exceptionally fine health. His only deformities were a slight cleft palate and a barely perceptible asymmetry of the skull, possibly a sign of a difficult birth.

Crooked Nail. The single telltale nail was preserved by an odd quirk. Because of a tough knot in the olive wood of the cross, the nail was slightly bent to the side as it was hammered into place. Later, after the young man had been given the traditional coup de grace (a blow that broke both legs and would have hastened the victim's death by causing hemorrhage and shock), the crooked nail apparently proved to be stubbornly embedded in the cross and hindered efforts to take down the body. The only practical way that this could be done, writes Haas in the Israel Exploration Journal, was "to cut the feet off and then remove the entire complex —nail, plaque of wood [which helped keep the feet in position] and feet —from the cross." Then, these severed parts were apparently immediately buried along with the rest of the body in a temporary grave; Jewish custom forbids long exposure after death. Subsequently, Yehohanan's remains were disinterred by friends or relatives and removed to their permanent resting place outside the city, where they lay undisturbed until 1968.

The actual date of the execution was not so apparent. But from pottery and other artifacts in the cave, the Israeli scholars were able to make a rough estimate: it could have taken place as early as A.D. 7, when the Judeans rose up against the Romans to protest an official census, or as late as the final decade before the destruction of the Second Temple and the dispersion of the Jews in A.D. 70.

Jesus' Agony. The time and place of the young man's execution invited comparison to Jesus Christ's own Passion on the cross—which scholars believe took place about A.D. 30, when Jesus was in his mid-30s.*But Israel's director of antiquities, Avraham Biran, and a number of Christian biblical scholars were quick to warn against any attempt to identify the skeleton as that of Jesus. As Dr. Bruce Metzger of the Princeton Theological Seminary pointed out, "We have absolutely no knowledge of Jesus' physical stature." Moreover, the man was younger than Jesus, and the Gospels report that the Roman soldiers, in contrast to their regular practice, did not break the legs of Jesus before his death; they thrust a lance into his side. Both the archaeologists and biblical scholars were understandably concerned. Any suggestion, however farfetched, that the body was that of Jesus would challenge two of Christianity's central beliefs: the Resurrection, the doctrine that Christ rose from the dead three days after the Crucifixion; and the Ascension, which holds that Jesus ascended bodily into heaven 40 days later.

If Genisis IS layed out as it occured...

Adam was created on the eighth day.

*on the sixth day - 'male and female created he them.'

then he rested.

Then he created the garden in the east.

AND then he created Adam to tend the garden.

Jews and Arabs are the decendants of Adam... the rest of us are decendants of the Human race from the 6th day.

Those Adam and Eve bones are underground somewhere on the planet - with the rest of the fossils that are "assumed" to legitimize evolution. You know - all those missing links. But you can be sure that there are billions of dollars beinfg spent on locating those missing links, and if the bones of Adam and Eve are found, there will be billios of dollars spent to make sure the world never finds out. But you knew that. Why do you even ask?

If it were declared that they found the remains of Adam and Eve - would you become a christain?
Is that the evidence you need? Or is the lack of their being located your proof that evolution is true?

I loved this example.

Spurious radiocarbon dates caused by volcanic emanations of radiocarbon-depleted CO2 probably also come under the category of reservoir corrections. Plants which grow in the vicinity of active volcanic fumeroles will yield a radiocarbon age which is too old. Bruns et al. (1980) measured the radioactivity of modern plants growing near hot springs heated by volcanic rocks in western Germany and demonstrated a deficiency in radiocarbon of up to 1500 years through comparison with modern atmospheric radiocarbon levels. Similarly, this effect has been noted for plants in the bay of Palaea Kameni near the prehistoric site of Akrotiri, which was buried by the eruption of the Thera volcano over 3500 years ago (see Weninger, 1989). The effect has been suggested as providing dates in error for the eruption of Thera which has been linked to the demise of the Minoan civilisation in the Aegean. One modern plant growing near the emanations had an apparent age of 1390 yr. The volcanic effect has a limited distance however. Bruns et al. (1980) found that at 200 m away from the source, plants yielded an age in agreement with that expected. They suggested that the influence of depleted CO2 declined rapidly with increasing distance from the source.

Radiocarbon discrepancies due to volcanic CO2 emissions are a popular source of ammunition for fundamentalist viewpoints keen to present evidence to show that the radiocarbon method is somehow fundamentally flawed.


Measures to minimise the error incurred

Big samples, longer count times, repeat sample assays

Multiply CRA's by 1.03 if necessary

Stable isotope analyses using Mass Spec.

International crosscheck of secondary standards. (ouch )

Tree ring calibration; otherwise interpret results in radiometric timescale.

Interpretation of results. (They will not just assume something is correct, unlike biblical scholars)

Interpretation of results, analysis and dating of extracted pretreated fractions.

Identification of species of material in the case of wood and charcoal to short lived samples only.

Care in field and laboratory

Care in interpretation, interdisciplinary approach and collaboration

For the evidence of crucifixion skeletal remains, scroll back for the article on Yehohanan son of Chaggol

This is non responsive and argumentative. It's also delusional and paranoid. However I will post these Human Transitional Fossils for your inspection.

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/transitional.html

you already know my answer.

yep, thnx miguel -