I was refering to the physical manuscripts (or scrolls if you prefer) of what we now refer to as the bible, which date back to the first century, and previous (in the case of some OT documents)



Since most of you (by that I mean those who declare the bible to be a myth) are quick to jump on that - why bother. When Feral steps out of line on these matters, I call her on it. Sometimes she's a little over zealous on matters that require a little more evidence to substanciate a claim. However, most of Ferals "proofs" are of an experiencial nature, as opposed to a logical fallacy. I don't question her claims of experience - nor do I question yours. However I don't find the claims of "men" as empirical evidence of absolute truth. Especially those with an agenda. I prefer to know more about the background of the author, and the means by which they've come up with their conclusions.



Agreed. I tend to put stock in experience and to a certain extent - eye witness testimony. If the claims do not defy logic, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Provided I have enough information to deem my belief worthy of accepting.



Yes, I can see the hesitancy on your part in accepting the authenticity of scripture in line with the numerous myths that exist. But I'm not clear about which end to put the blame for plagerism. It is quite concievable that these ancient myths could have easily been drawn from the accounts that Moses recorded in the OT.



Perhaps. But I would need a lot more testimony to this claim than some "scholar" who came up with this evidence in 1979! But I remain, patiently awaiting the evidence from your research before I reach any clear cut conclusion on this matter. Suffice it to say, that at the present time, I am leaning towards unconvincing as a conclusion.

hmm? we look at tings very similiarly eljay i to go to the core of something, to me its not as much whats being stated as who is stating it and if there is an agenda, such as the book for one, but also all else.

thats what i'm looking into today who is the author? what else has he written? what is his background, does he have an agenda of some kind? is he agnostic or chritian or other? what are his literrary credentials for the subject matter, why does this interest him? whats in it for him? is he using others sources or is all his info gleaned from others? how reliable is those sources? etc.

It's not worshoped as gospel. What I usually do is weigh the options.

On one hand - I have something from the first century who's authorship is claimed within the manuscript.

On the other I have a book from 1979 - copywright issued, Library of Congress, writting about the same period.

I wonder which one will tip the scale?

We do question everything. Why do you think we're questioning your references?

Have you read and studied the book I refer to and the mathematical code used to copyright the written works of these authors? You can download this book free from the internet.

Just do a search for :

The True Authorship Of The New Testament by Abelard Reuchlin

I am not much of a mathmatician myself, and the book is difficult to read on the computer screen as it is small type. When I receive some computer ink I am going to print it out and study the math codes and take a closer look at the New Testament.

JB

That is too general of an answer. The "Old Testament" as it is now referred to is a collection of different manuscripts, all written by different authors. Each one should be looked at individually. I can't just accept a general answer like that if I am any kind of investigator at all.

References please.

JB

Authorship of the bible is questionable, that is for sure but the fact that the original texts used for the different books in the bible were translated and edited by men of the time and further by men of a later time makes the work not authentic anyway.

King James version which is the most common, although there are many others, I used to collect them, sorry got of track there. King James hand picked what would go into his bible out of many texts, edited to make it fit his agenda and destroyed or made heirasay anything that would "conflict" with his version. Many originals were destroyed because of this. It is a part of history, this information. Has noone questioned this?

Yes, this has been deeply questioned. There are many people who study many different versions of the Bible to include ancient texts.

My inquiry is mostly into the first ancient scriptures penned on scrolls and who wrote them and why. From there, I am sure there have been many changes but I am mostly concerned with the original authorship of the New Testament, which breaks away from old Judaic law and forms the new religion called Christianity.

This is the reason that people find so much conflict between the old and new Testament. They serve two different religions, but they are necessarily tied together. This was done for the purpose of creating a new religion and drawing Jews and pagans into it.

JB

Understood

book review by a secular huminist:

doesn't prove anything but:






Abelard Reuchlin's "The True Authorship of the New Testament" (1979) is a strange little pamphlet. I bought it over two years ago when I saw it advertised in a secular humanist periodical as a definitive debunking of the accuracy of the New Testament. The pamphlet's arguments are not exactly scientific (like secular humanism itself) but belong to pseudo-science, speculation, theory and the occult. It has a portrait of the notable first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus labeled "Arius Calpurnius Piso, pen name Flavius Josephus, a Roman." The introduction to the book welcomes the reader to the "inner circle." Reuchlin's "inner circle" includes those who know about the true authorship of the New Testament and he states his work was originally intended for Jews only (to prevent them from converting to Christianity) but is now seeking a wider audience. In this introduction, Reuchlin also rants and raves against perceived enemies of the Jewish people such as Messianic Jews, anybody who is opposed to the state of Israel (any criticism of Israel inherently hateful and "anti-Semitic," of course), Christian-Identity believers (an arrayed group of Christians who believe northern Europeans like the Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Scandinavians and Celts are descended from the lost tribes of Israel), and Arabs and Communists because they frequently attack Israeli/Jewish political interest through the auspices of the UN.

Reuchlin then goes on to concoct one of the most far-fetched conspiracy theories ever put into print. This might be farther out there than Jesus' secret bloodline but I guess not as far-fetched as black UN helicopters, mind-control technology and weather manipulation devices. According to Reuchlin, the ancient Roman aristocratic family of Arius Calpurnius Piso conspired to gain political and spiritual control of the Roman Empire by forging an entirely new religion based on Jewish Scriptures-and make this religion combat the growing popularity of Judaism and the political power of Jews, who made up ten percent of the Empire's population in the first century. The writings the Piso family produced were encoded in various places through names and hidden symbolism (for example Piso [Pisces] refers to a fish on the zodiac and was a symbol for Christianity). Reuchlin contends that Arius Calpurnius Piso made up the pen name "Flavius Josephus" to write his histories of both the Hebrew people and the Jewish War in Palestine during AD 70 when the Temple was razed by Titus' forces. Other writings were forged by the Piso family and their cronies, which included the Roman philosopher Seneca and the historians Pliny and Tacitus. The entire Greek New Testament; various Messianic prophecies in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures; the "Apocryphal" books like Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Bel and the Dragon and I Maccabees; the writings of the early Church Fathers like Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp of Smyrna; second century Christian texts like the Shepard of Hermas, Barnabas, the Didache and the Martyrdom of Polycarp-all of these were forgeries. Jesus and St. Paul were made up characters and the later Church writings were composed as a form of "self-fulfilling prophecy." The "Apocrypha" was forged to bridge the gap in Scriptural history from 400 BC (the time of the exiles return from Babylon) until the time of Christ. Reuchlin then goes on for several pages using cabbalistic numerology (he adds 2 and 2 to get 22, that how numerology works!) in the Greek and Latin texts to prove how Christianity has been a giant, millennium long conspiracy against the Jews. He believes Christianity to be inherently anti-Semitic because its savior, Jesus, is brought to trial by Jewish religious leaders. Reuchlin also takes potshots against the Koran because it mentions Jesus as a "prophet" of God and speculates that whoever wrote the Koran and backed Muhammad was connected to the same multi-generational conspiracy that created Christianity.

Go ahead and read this book. It does not contain any cogent revelations or information-just hypothetical conclusions drawn from perceived "coincidences" and letter codes--that will shatter Christianity ("and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it").

Very nice thanks Tribo. Personally, I find the story more believable than the New Testament itself.

People don't sit down and write stuff for no reason and as powerful as the written word was back then it had the power to shape history and the future.

I have a Christian friend who was preaching and attempting to convert some Jews to Christianity in her club on Yahoo and was called anti-semitic for her efforts.

In a way, Christianity started out anti-semitic, but then recently a great effort was made to evangelisize Christianity and to support the State of Israel and now evangelic Christians mostly support the Jews and the idea of Zionism and the state of Israel, even sending their own sons to die in the middle east in the interest of stabilizing the region for Israel.

The history of Christianity tells of Jews who were told to convert or die, and many converted and many fled and many died at the hands of Christian (Roman) zealots. I am not going to suggest that they were typical "Christians" killing Jews, I am suggesting that they were part of the Roman plot to replace Judaism, with a more subdued submissive religion called Christianity that taught people to "turn the other cheek."

It really does make sense.

In my study of world wars and many other conflicts I always seem to find a path that leads back to the Jewish people, touted as "God's chosen people." And now, in looking into what might be the beginnings of Christianity find that it too leads back to a conflict with the Jews who were apparently gaining too much ground in ancient Rome.

Very interesting review of the book Tribo.

JB

Well so far JB, my investigation into this has led me to believe that as far as the research I've done so far that the Kabbalah "numerology" aspect of this book are not in line.

Though the Kabbalah mysticism predates anything of the books origin in time, the Numerology seems not to have been introduced until many centuries later - but I'll keep on investigating till i have enough to say for sure one way or the other - i did however run across a site you might want to check out -

www.apologeticsindex.org/k03.html

nothing definitive but very interesting.

my mission is to see when and where in Jewish history the Kabbalahist started using the type of numerology that is mentioned by the author of your book, once that is found, then i can proceed from there with a further investigation of later numerology of the K's to see if the early numerology mathches the later centuries numerlogy or if there is some type of mixture going on between the 2 - that should give ground's one way or the other as to the factualness of what the author states.

i wont have answers im sure til next week at the earliest. - if you in the meantime want to look further into the numerology aspect being presented in the book that would be god also as to comparing notes. i really think that it all hangs or falls on what the numerology's used are and when they came into being as to first things first.

What would it matter which book they found? If all they had was the scroll of Isaiah and The letter to Romans - that would be enough to call anything written in 1979 into question.

Tribo,

Good. I am horrible at math.

However something did ring a bell in my head with I read something in the book about Pythagoras math and I know that there is some really mysterious stuff going on with that (Pythagoras) ~but since math is not one of my best subjects, (my mind goes numb) I hesitate to get into it unless I really have to.

The thing I can't shake is how it all fits with so much information I already have. I know that all information is probably a little bias with an agenda, but this just rings true to me for some reason.

Now even if it does not prove out and get verified I still think the New Testament is a forgery. The question remains, why and who.

Here now we have a maybe on the who and a possibility on the why. We have agenda, motive etc. What I am interested in is what happened after the New Testament was finished and how did Rome change the religion. I suspect they did it the old fashioned way, but just killing the ones who refused to convert to the new religion.

JB

Here now we have a maybe on the who and a possibility on the why. We have agenda, motive etc. What I am interested in is what happened after the New Testament was finished and how did Rome change the religion. I suspect they did it the old fashioned way, but just killing the ones who refused to convert to the new religion.

JB


tribo:

good - then you look into that end -

History: an account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, brought about by rulers mostly knaves and soldiers mostly fools.

HISTORY:

Biased accounts of "everything"
That has supposedly happened, ancient
or new. Nobody gets it right.

The victors write the history

and the losers read it?

Question reality.

after they have lived through it