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| Topic: what Is The Truth About Dinosaurs | |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 03:47 PM
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i was asking because i saw a show on science or history channel sometime back - yrs. about how the skulls especially could be found among modern mans skulls even today, but i never looked into it i remember them saying something like if you stood on the corner of a street in NY for a day you would or might see skull shapes as to what has been described as Neanderthal man. so just curious , have no background in the field personally. i can't go by reconstructive ideas, at most that is guess work just as modern day attempts to do that with murder victim's etc.i give no credence to mans attempts to re-create what dinosaurs look lie either, not that i can say their wrong, i just can't say their right.
So now i bring up the question of DNA - have they been able to do test showing that the neanderthal man has the same DNA as homosapien? or is it just close like in between the chimps and HS?? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 04:06 PM
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It was not me who suggested that Neanderthal was Homo Sapien but a Christian on forum. The assumption was made that god had created them probably around the same time as Adam and Eve. So that is why I posed these questions. We also do not know why exactly they went extinct. Their times lines overlapped with homo sapien so that could have been a problem.
Neanderthals-200,000-30,000 BCE Homo Sapien 130,000BCE-Present In July of 1997 the first ever sequencing of Neanderthal DNA, a breakthrough in the study of modern human evolution, was announced in the Journal Cell (Krings, et. al., 1997). DNA was extracted for the type specimen and the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence was determined. This sequence was compared to living human mtDNA sequences and found to be outside the range of variation in modern humans. Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans. The authors suggest that the Neanderthals went extinct without contribution to the present mtDNA of modern humans. |
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It was not me who suggested that Neanderthal was Homo Sapien but a Christian on forum. The assumption was made that god had created them probably around the same time as Adam and Eve. So that is why I posed these questions. We also do not know why exactly they went extinct. Their times lines overlapped with homo sapien so that could have been a problem. Neanderthals-200,000-30,000 BCE Homo Sapien 130,000BCE-Present and as to DNA i asked about in the previous reply? |
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Im sorry, I added it there. Im going as fast as I can Tribo! You are a slave driver!
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Im sorry, I added it there. Im going as fast as I can Tribo! You are a slave driver!  take your time my lady no hurry - 
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 04:18 PM
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Oh Im just kidding. I only copied and pasted the DNA information. Now to be fair, that was the very first link and taken from some science information magazine so I should look for conflicting data as well. Im trying to be objective here. Im sure since 1997 there has been arguments and refutations made. There always is a lot of that which is good of course to broaden and continuously expand this research base. A lot of people just wont accept anything without some kind of DNA evidence. I blame all those CSI shows personally.
That note was taken from the article written by James Jacobs. |
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It was not me who suggested that Neanderthal was Homo Sapien but a Christian on forum. The assumption was made that god had created them probably around the same time as Adam and Eve. So that is why I posed these questions. We also do not know why exactly they went extinct. Their times lines overlapped with homo sapien so that could have been a problem. Neanderthals-200,000-30,000 BCE Homo Sapien 130,000BCE-Present In July of 1997 the first ever sequencing of Neanderthal DNA, a breakthrough in the study of modern human evolution, was announced in the Journal Cell (Krings, et. al., 1997). DNA was extracted for the type specimen and the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence was determined. This sequence was compared to living human mtDNA sequences and found to be outside the range of variation in modern humans. Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans. The authors suggest that the Neanderthals went extinct without contribution to the present mtDNA of modern humans. did they evalute 6000 yr old man and come up with any variations there? approx. were they the same as to modern day findings as compared? and were their sights of findings in the area of the garden of eden as to the info in the book as to its whereabouts? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 04:56 PM
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I am looking but the assumption would be no because why would they arbitrarily do a comparison to only 6000 year old human DNA when these samples are presumably much older? Im not really sure that would be classified as an "a ha" moment. There are skeletal remains of 6000 year old humans of course and they look characteristically different than these 30,000 year old skeletons. That also re-visits the question of why would god make these humans only to single them out for extinction and why are they physically different than homo sapien? I have found Iraq, Iran and France thus far as discovery locations. That is where the name Neanderthal comes from in fact. The Neander Valley in France. I will keep looking however.
"Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans." This answers the other question you asked. In comparison to modern DNA 27 differences are seen. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 2051 human and 59 chimpanzee sequences over 360 base pairs. Twenty five of the 27 variable base pairs coincide with positions that vary in at least one of the human sequences. The sequence was compared with 994 human mtDNA lineages. While these lineages differ among themselves by eight substitutions on average, the range of difference with the Neanderthal sequence is 22-36. The Neanderthal sequence has 28.2 ±1.9 substitutions from the European lineage, 27.1 ±12.2 substitutions from the African lineage, 27.7 ±2.2 substitutions from the Asian lineage, 27.4 ±1.8 substitutions from the American lineage, and 28.3 ±2.7 substitutions from the Australian/Oceanic lineages. This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans. |
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I am looking but the assumption would be no because why would they arbitrarily do a comparison to only 6000 year old human DNA when these samples are presumably much older? Im not really sure that would be classified as an "a ha" moment. There are skeletal remains of 6000 year old humans of course and they look characteristically different than these 30,000 year old skeletons. That also re-visits the question of why would god make these humans only to single them out for extinction and why are they physically different than homo sapien? I have found Iraq, Iran and France thus far as discovery locations. That is where the name Neanderthal comes from in fact. The Neander Valley in France. I will keep looking however. "Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans." This answers the other question you asked. In comparison to modern DNA 27 differences are seen. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 2051 human and 59 chimpanzee sequences over 360 base pairs. Twenty five of the 27 variable base pairs coincide with positions that vary in at least one of the human sequences. The sequence was compared with 994 human mtDNA lineages. While these lineages differ among themselves by eight substitutions on average, the range of difference with the Neanderthal sequence is 22-36. The Neanderthal sequence has 28.2 ±1.9 substitutions from the European lineage, 27.1 ±12.2 substitutions from the African lineage, 27.7 ±2.2 substitutions from the Asian lineage, 27.4 ±1.8 substitutions from the American lineage, and 28.3 ±2.7 substitutions from the Australian/Oceanic lineages. This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans. yep,yep,yep, - uhu uhu - now what does that mean in common english for those of us not familiar to the scenario? -
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I am looking but the assumption would be no because why would they arbitrarily do a comparison to only 6000 year old human DNA when these samples are presumably much older? Im not really sure that would be classified as an "a ha" moment. There are skeletal remains of 6000 year old humans of course and they look characteristically different than these 30,000 year old skeletons. That also re-visits the question of why would god make these humans only to single them out for extinction and why are they physically different than homo sapien? I have found Iraq, Iran and France thus far as discovery locations. That is where the name Neanderthal comes from in fact. The Neander Valley in France. I will keep looking however. "Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans." This answers the other question you asked. In comparison to modern DNA 27 differences are seen. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 2051 human and 59 chimpanzee sequences over 360 base pairs. Twenty five of the 27 variable base pairs coincide with positions that vary in at least one of the human sequences. The sequence was compared with 994 human mtDNA lineages. While these lineages differ among themselves by eight substitutions on average, the range of difference with the Neanderthal sequence is 22-36. The Neanderthal sequence has 28.2 ±1.9 substitutions from the European lineage, 27.1 ±12.2 substitutions from the African lineage, 27.7 ±2.2 substitutions from the Asian lineage, 27.4 ±1.8 substitutions from the American lineage, and 28.3 ±2.7 substitutions from the Australian/Oceanic lineages. This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans. yep,yep,yep, - uhu uhu - now what does that mean in common english for those of us not familiar to the scenario? - Okay, it looks a little confusing but I will attempt to break it down and explain what these scientists have done exactly. They initially acquired this DNA sample from the humorous bone of a Neanderthal specimen. They analyzed the extend of amino acid racemization to determine suitability for analysis. It was determined that the amino acid levels were at 20% to 73% of those in modern bone, evidencing DNA survival. In English, that means, bingo! We have an adequate sample. In comparison to modern human DNA they discovered 27 differences in markers. They actually did a comparison of 2051 human sequences and 59 chimp sequences. There were 360 base pairs. A base pair or sometimes they use (bp), is a term utilized in molecular biology and it refers to two nucleotides on opposite complementary DNA or RNA strands that are connected via hydrogen bonds. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 994 human mitochondrial DNA sequences. These lineages included, African, Asian, American (Im not positive if they mean Native Americans) European and Oceanic which is Australian and New Zealand Mauri peoples. In other words, these are all modern human DNA samples that they are comparing this Neanderthal DNA to. They want a good cross section to see if any one ethnic background is closer in its sequencing matches. These different ethnic groups tend to have an average of an 8 sequence difference. But when compared to Neanderthal, those numbers increase substantially. It becomes a 22-36 sequence difference when compared with these modern day human lineages. That would indicate that when Neanderthal man went extinct, his line died with him. This DNA comparison would definitely lean towards the assumption that he was incapable of passing his DNA characteristics successfully to homo sapien. It is believed that they did breed however. Since the body structure of Neanderthal was so different from that of Homo Sapien, the babies often could not be delivered by Homo sapien mothers. This is one theory of course. Another adaptation of homo sapien infants is their very thin and streamline bodies and ability to support their own heads and body weight shortly after birth. Neanderthal infants it is speculated could not do this because they had much larger craniums. Based on recovered skeletal remains this theory gains credibility. That's only one theory as it relates to a possible reason why they were essentially selected for extinction however. My feeling was it was indeed related to their body structure and also competition for territory. The Homo Sapien was just a little more cunning in that respect. |
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I am looking but the assumption would be no because why would they arbitrarily do a comparison to only 6000 year old human DNA when these samples are presumably much older? Im not really sure that would be classified as an "a ha" moment. There are skeletal remains of 6000 year old humans of course and they look characteristically different than these 30,000 year old skeletons. That also re-visits the question of why would god make these humans only to single them out for extinction and why are they physically different than homo sapien? I have found Iraq, Iran and France thus far as discovery locations. That is where the name Neanderthal comes from in fact. The Neander Valley in France. I will keep looking however. "Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans." This answers the other question you asked. In comparison to modern DNA 27 differences are seen. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 2051 human and 59 chimpanzee sequences over 360 base pairs. Twenty five of the 27 variable base pairs coincide with positions that vary in at least one of the human sequences. The sequence was compared with 994 human mtDNA lineages. While these lineages differ among themselves by eight substitutions on average, the range of difference with the Neanderthal sequence is 22-36. The Neanderthal sequence has 28.2 ±1.9 substitutions from the European lineage, 27.1 ±12.2 substitutions from the African lineage, 27.7 ±2.2 substitutions from the Asian lineage, 27.4 ±1.8 substitutions from the American lineage, and 28.3 ±2.7 substitutions from the Australian/Oceanic lineages. This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans. yep,yep,yep, - uhu uhu - now what does that mean in common english for those of us not familiar to the scenario? - Okay, it looks a little confusing but I will attempt to break it down and explain what these scientists have done exactly. They initially acquired this DNA sample from the humorous bone of a Neanderthal specimen. They analyzed the extend of amino acid racemization to determine suitability for analysis. It was determined that the amino acid levels were at 20% to 73% of those in modern bone, evidencing DNA survival. In English, that means, bingo! We have an adequate sample. In comparison to modern human DNA they discovered 27 differences in markers. They actually did a comparison of 2051 human sequences and 59 chimp sequences. There were 360 base pairs. A base pair or sometimes they use (bp), is a term utilized in molecular biology and it refers to two nucleotides on opposite complementary DNA or RNA strands that are connected via hydrogen bonds. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 994 human mitochondrial DNA sequences. These lineages included, African, Asian, American (Im not positive if they mean Native Americans) European and Oceanic which is Australian and New Zealand Mauri peoples. In other words, these are all modern human DNA samples that they are comparing this Neanderthal DNA to. They want a good cross section to see if any one ethnic background is closer in its sequencing matches. These different ethnic groups tend to have an average of an 8 sequence difference. But when compared to Neanderthal, those numbers increase substantially. It becomes a 22-36 sequence difference when compared with these modern day human lineages. That would indicate that when Neanderthal man went extinct, his line died with him. This DNA comparison would definitely lean towards the assumption that he was incapable of passing his DNA characteristics successfully to homo sapien. It is believed that they did breed however. Since the body structure of Neanderthal was so different from that of Homo Sapien, the babies often could not be delivered by Homo sapien mothers. This is one theory of course. Another adaptation of homo sapien infants is their very thin and streamline bodies and ability to support their own heads and body weight shortly after birth. Neanderthal infants it is speculated could not do this because they had much larger craniums. Based on recovered skeletal remains this theory gains credibility. That's only one theory as it relates to a possible reason why they were essentially selected for extinction however. My feeling was it was indeed related to their body structure and also competition for territory. The Homo Sapien was just a little more cunning in that respect. so it seem's to me what your saying is that at one point both homo sapiens and neanderthal exsisted together - correct me if i'm incorrect - that said then was HS a distinct creature? did it arise on it's own? or is it here again a branching off of N.? how did the first HS's come about? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 06:25 PM
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I am looking but the assumption would be no because why would they arbitrarily do a comparison to only 6000 year old human DNA when these samples are presumably much older? Im not really sure that would be classified as an "a ha" moment. There are skeletal remains of 6000 year old humans of course and they look characteristically different than these 30,000 year old skeletons. That also re-visits the question of why would god make these humans only to single them out for extinction and why are they physically different than homo sapien? I have found Iraq, Iran and France thus far as discovery locations. That is where the name Neanderthal comes from in fact. The Neander Valley in France. I will keep looking however. "Age estimation of the Neanderthal and human divergence is four times older than the age of the common mtDNA ancestor of all living humans." This answers the other question you asked. In comparison to modern DNA 27 differences are seen. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 2051 human and 59 chimpanzee sequences over 360 base pairs. Twenty five of the 27 variable base pairs coincide with positions that vary in at least one of the human sequences. The sequence was compared with 994 human mtDNA lineages. While these lineages differ among themselves by eight substitutions on average, the range of difference with the Neanderthal sequence is 22-36. The Neanderthal sequence has 28.2 ±1.9 substitutions from the European lineage, 27.1 ±12.2 substitutions from the African lineage, 27.7 ±2.2 substitutions from the Asian lineage, 27.4 ±1.8 substitutions from the American lineage, and 28.3 ±2.7 substitutions from the Australian/Oceanic lineages. This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans. yep,yep,yep, - uhu uhu - now what does that mean in common english for those of us not familiar to the scenario? - Okay, it looks a little confusing but I will attempt to break it down and explain what these scientists have done exactly. They initially acquired this DNA sample from the humorous bone of a Neanderthal specimen. They analyzed the extend of amino acid racemization to determine suitability for analysis. It was determined that the amino acid levels were at 20% to 73% of those in modern bone, evidencing DNA survival. In English, that means, bingo! We have an adequate sample. In comparison to modern human DNA they discovered 27 differences in markers. They actually did a comparison of 2051 human sequences and 59 chimp sequences. There were 360 base pairs. A base pair or sometimes they use (bp), is a term utilized in molecular biology and it refers to two nucleotides on opposite complementary DNA or RNA strands that are connected via hydrogen bonds. The Neanderthal sequence was compared with 994 human mitochondrial DNA sequences. These lineages included, African, Asian, American (Im not positive if they mean Native Americans) European and Oceanic which is Australian and New Zealand Mauri peoples. In other words, these are all modern human DNA samples that they are comparing this Neanderthal DNA to. They want a good cross section to see if any one ethnic background is closer in its sequencing matches. These different ethnic groups tend to have an average of an 8 sequence difference. But when compared to Neanderthal, those numbers increase substantially. It becomes a 22-36 sequence difference when compared with these modern day human lineages. That would indicate that when Neanderthal man went extinct, his line died with him. This DNA comparison would definitely lean towards the assumption that he was incapable of passing his DNA characteristics successfully to homo sapien. It is believed that they did breed however. Since the body structure of Neanderthal was so different from that of Homo Sapien, the babies often could not be delivered by Homo sapien mothers. This is one theory of course. Another adaptation of homo sapien infants is their very thin and streamline bodies and ability to support their own heads and body weight shortly after birth. Neanderthal infants it is speculated could not do this because they had much larger craniums. Based on recovered skeletal remains this theory gains credibility. That's only one theory as it relates to a possible reason why they were essentially selected for extinction however. My feeling was it was indeed related to their body structure and also competition for territory. The Homo Sapien was just a little more cunning in that respect. so it seem's to me what your saying is that at one point both homo sapiens and neanderthal exsisted together - correct me if i'm incorrect - that said then was HS a distinct creature? did it arise on it's own? or is it here again a branching off of N.? how did the first HS's come about? Yes you are dead on there. That's exactly what Im saying and what these paleontologists are asserting. Their time lines overlapped. The Neanderthals were essentially our last humanoid cousins on the evolutionary branch. Here is the timeline: Australopithecus ramidus - 5 to 4 million years BCE Australopithecus afarensis - 4 to 2.7 million years BCE Australopithecus africanus - 3.0 to 2.0 million years BCE Australopithecus robustus - 2.2 to 1.0 million years BCE Homo habilis - 2.2 to 1.6 million years BCE Homo erectus - 2 to 0.4 million years BCE Homo sapiens - 400,000 to 200,000 years BCE Homo sapiens neandertalensis - 200,000 to 30,000 years BCE Homo sapiens sapiens - 130,000 years BCE to present Homo sapien sapien or us today, would have been on the scene living in bands starting at about 130,000 BCE, and incidentally it is thought very much like American Indians in their social structure. You don't have to buy into any of that of course and everyone seems to have a theory there. This is just the basics here. |
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krimsa:
Australopithecus ramidus - 5 to 4 million years BCE Australopithecus afarensis - 4 to 2.7 million years BCE Australopithecus africanus - 3.0 to 2.0 million years BCE Australopithecus robustus - 2.2 to 1.0 million years BCE Homo habilis - 2.2 to 1.6 million years BCE Homo erectus - 2 to 0.4 million years BCE Homo sapiens - 400,000 to 200,000 years BCE Homo sapiens neandertalensis - 200,000 to 30,000 years BCE Homo sapiens sapiens - 130,000 years BCE to present Homo sapien sapien or us today, would have been on the scene living in bands starting at about 130,000 BCE, and incidentally it is thought very much like American Indians in their social structure. You don't have to buy into any of that of course and everyone seems to have a theory there. This is just the basics here. Edited by Krimsa on Mon 09/01/08 06:25 PM reply: and do they have evidence of the other forerunners you mentioned: Australopithecus ramidus - 5 to 4 million years BCE Australopithecus afarensis - 4 to 2.7 million years BCE Australopithecus africanus - 3.0 to 2.0 million years BCE Australopithecus robustus - 2.2 to 1.0 million years BCE Homo habilis - 2.2 to 1.6 million years BCE Homo erectus - 2 to 0.4 million years BCE can they prove an unbroken line - is there physical evidence? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 07:01 PM
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I will start looking for the images. Can you answer any of the originally posed questions just to be fair? I have been answering yours all night.
 They certainly have clear evidence of Neanderthal man. Thats where the problem now lies with the Christian creationism account.
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I will start looking for the images. Can you answer any of the originally posed questions just to be fair? I have been answering yours all night. ahhhh - poor baby, tell me which questions your refferring to and i will if i can or tell me what pages i can find the original question(s) - 
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Is anyone going to attempt to answer this question or no? It kind of came about by accident because a Christian made a joke to the effect that Neanderthal was ONLY about 6000 years old and created at the same time as Adam and Eve.
Okay, if this is the case. I have some questions about him and what he is exactly. Is he Homo Sapien? Why would god have created this other Humanoid type man but not quite the same as Adam and Eve? He's close and very advanced but not quite on par yet. Why would god make a people and label them for extinction presumably? Why is his body so very different from Homo Sapien? Was he able to breed with Homo Sapien? Why have we discovered his skeletal remains but not those of Adam and Eve? |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 07:47 PM
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Is anyone going to attempt to answer this question or no? It kind of came about by accident because a Christian made a joke to the effect that Neanderthal was ONLY about 6000 years old and created at the same time as Adam and Eve. Okay, if this is the case. I have some questions about him and what he is exactly. Is he Homo Sapien? Why would god have created this other Humanoid type man but not quite the same as Adam and Eve? He's close and very advanced but not quite on par yet. Why would god make a people and label them for extinction presumably? Why is his body so very different from Homo Sapien? Was he able to breed with Homo Sapien? Why have we discovered his skeletal remains but not those of Adam and Eve? hmmm?? - if your looking for an anthropological answer thats out of my realm as your probably quite aware by now  however we have conversed on the idea of their being two creation scenarios and that i hold that the mankind spoken of in gen 1 - is apart from mankind formed from mud and bone in gen2 account. if that holds true, then that would answer all your questions. meaning there was so to say a forerunner of the adamic race. i believe all the other races came into being in gen 1 and the chosen ones of god were formed in gen.two, this would allow room for a more ancient manking to have existed, it would also explain cains wife presence and other's that cain said would kill him if they found him. of course no self respecting C. is goint to agree with me on this but that's beside the point. but that is all i can offer on the Q's you have posted - sorry. it would take someone of your background and education in antropology that is a C, in order to defend the C's position. that's not me
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 09/01/08 07:51 PM
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That's fair enough. We are totally in agreement that there are those two versions of creation. I know the Christian side of it seems to be that they were simply written from different points of view but that just doesn't hold water. I actually saw a show on the History channel and biblical scholars from all over the world have studied this issue found in Genesis so its not like just you or I mentioning it. Its been debated for years.
Actually this question of Neanderthal only came up by accident as I mentioned. It dawned on me that even if you don't believe in the theory of evolution, the existence of these early humans and their DNA and skeletons is quite difficult to dismiss. So, I am attempting to intermingle the two and see how that can be explained or reconciled by the proponents of Creationism. I thought Eljay might look into it but I'm not sure if he was on today. I just watched an episode of "The Simpsons" and Bart is in Sunday school and he asked his teacher if there will be "cavemen in heaven"? The teacher just looks so exasperated.
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Bump. Anyone? Any ideas? Even Morning Song had a good explanation and she felt it might have been a very quick sort of adaptive process these Neanderthals went through? I dont buy into that simply because it would have happened too quickly if Neanderthal was made at the same time as Adam and Eve. We also have their DNA as not being linked with modern day human...so anyone? What was god thinking and why did he bother to make them? Were they a "trial" or practice run in the making for homo sapien?
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The aliens who planted Adam and Eve were not the only ones planting humans around the planet. They just had a better product.
The ugly Neanderthals were probably a student project.
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