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| Topic: Occam's Razor | |
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The Anthropic Principle, which makes the possibility of the universe having been created without God an impossibility.
You use the word "God" too freely. If the Anthropic Principle required the existence of a God then it's an invalid theory because there is no reason to believe that a God exists. On the contary, it is the Anthropic Principle that is claiming to give a 'reason' why God must exist. But it contains many flawed assumptions. One of it's biggest assumptions is that the universe was meant to be how it is. It begins with looking at the finished product, and then it asks what is the probability of achieving this result by change. And then it erroneously absuses mathematics to show that the probabilty is achieving this gold by chance is virutally zero. However, mathematics also can be used to show that the possiblity of finging a rational number is zero. Not just slim, but zero. Yet we observe that 99.9% of the mathematical relationships that occur in the universe are indeed represented by rational numbers. So clearly there is a flaw in mathematics. Secondly, the universe needs a necessary cause.
No it doesn't. This is what Alan Guth just got done proving. From a scientific point of view it doesn't need a cause. It would naturally arise from the quantum field. No cause required. It's innate in the properties of the quantum field to do this. The only two concepts humans have which are "necessary" (meaning they would exist unchanged in any conceivable universe) is God and numbers.
God isn't even a well-defined word. It means something completely differnt to a pantheist than it does for say a Christian. Numbers also have their problems. Mathematics is not what you seem to think it is. As I've just said, modern mathematics can indeed be used perfectly correctly to show that irrational numbers are the norm, and the probabiblity of finding a rational number is ZERO. Yet rational numbers are the norm in our everyday world, and irrational numbers are extremely rare. Precisely the opposite of what Mathematics predicts. Clearly there is a flaw in this manmade formalism as well. 
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JB wrote:
What is God? Where did God come from? How does he operate? I want the details. I am not satisfied with "God did it." Sorry, Spider, it is not that simple and God is not the simple answer. Truly that's no answer at all. That's just a cop out to say that God is the answer but we have no explanation for God. JB wrote:
Yes there may be an intelligent creator, but I want to know where that came from, and how that creator does things or causes things to manifest. Well, not only that, but the idea that such a creator would want blood sacrifices from it's creation is utterly absurd. There is no way that I would turn to the biblical picture of a God as being the correct picture. On the contrary the bibilical picture is absurd. It would require that God is at war with some stupid fallen angel. Please give me a break. This kind of nonsense isn't even worthy of consideration. JB wrote:
There could be more than one creator. Why do people think there is only one creator within this quantum field? Why do people think there is only one quantum field? Who decides these things? Absolutely. The whole idea that there needs to be one central egotistical mind in charge of all of creation is a totally unwarranted idea. Is one such mind could exist then why not many? If one God could exist then why not many. It makes absolutely no sense at all to think that there would just be one of these things. The very idea of God as some kind of egotistical mind that is at war with a fallen angel, and is totally peeved at mankind for disobeying him makes absoltuely no sense at all. Just think of it. If time is meaningless to God, at God did indeed create this entire vast universe, why would he even bother to pee around with pathetic humans? If they are so dispointing and disobedent why not just plop the whole planet earth into the sun, and go play with some other creations in the universe. Why would God bother to send his "Only Begotten Son" to suffer and pay for the sins of a bunch of unworthy bozos? That has to be the most absurdly ridiculous story I've ever heard. It's so absurd I can't even believe that anyone takes it seriously. If God is so perfect, then why doesn't he just create perfectly obedeient pets in the first place. 
Clearly that story is so full of absurdities that applying any type of reasoning to it at all must result in the conclusion that it's so unbelievable that it isn't even worthy of futher discussion. |
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Here is the TRUTH - who can deny it? As long as any part of any theory, that the human mind can create, remains open ended, humans will create possiblities to fill the open spaces. The significant difference in the possibilities offered, is that some would fill the open spaces of a theory with that which can not be tested or proven "religious faith", while others seek to fill the space with ideas based on the history of previously accepted and proven knowledge. Yes, those ideas need to be proven yet, but unlike "religious faith" the ideas of men based on previously proven knowledge can, and probably will, eventually, be proven or disproven. That which the religious have faith in, can never be proven, or it can no long be faith driven, and we would no longer be a world concerned with science, would we? As for the OP - As long as new poeple are introduced to the religion posts, the old religionists see an opportunity to convert. Fortunately, as a recent "agenda" thread indicates, there are many who will not let the sheep be hearded without a fight to make those sheep hear another side. 
ah, but the pleading of ignorance is not the bleating of the sheep and the sheep know the voice of the shepherd. and yes, redy, you keep believing that mantra that "Probably" or "eventually" will be "proven". That makes pesfect sense, doesn't it? teach it as fact and meet it tomorrow with actuary probability. That is delusional. you, and the others, have gone in the wrong direction all of your lives and continue to impress us with what? your assumptions? your guesses? your learned assumptions? your consensus? are you daft? you are following the pied piper of your delusional fantasies hoping against hope that it is true. and the funniest part is that you are serious!!! 
my sides are splitting. 
and Christians are delusional to you because God has answered our hearts and opened up his storer house to us as we opened our hearts to him in truth and sincerity. when will you daft, dense and pseudo intellectuals realize that truth and sincerity actually make a difference in your lives? WHen will you get it through your thick enebriated delusional and confused minds that insincerity and lies is your only problem in learning anything? How will anyone ever follow such inceredulity without first having been turned out in their own minds? you are looking fo more of the same and blaming Christians for your own stupidity and ignorance, I will say it again, if it went over your head. I am flying low now, don't miss it!!!! sincerity and truth blocks insincerity and lies. One more time, class. insincerity and lies blinds you from the truth and sincerity that cleanses your heart from all unrighteousness. But you say you are not sinners...
you are SO DAFT!!!!! insincerity and lies are your sin. there is no accounting for the lack when it has nothing to do with ones IQ. A child can comprehend this but you licentious losers with your audacity and arrogance intact cannoteven admit to yourselves that you are ruining your own credibility and worth and integrity with your distractable delusions. who is preaching to the choir but the proseytizers of lies and insincerity? turn em out? they turn themselves out to whine along side you in the gutter. proselytizing neophytes? no way. you are just given your comapanions in your delusions. meanwhile, Chrisatians are given fellowship with the children of God. I will not speak to other beliefs in God, as they are not mine. I am not a spiritual adulterer. I dont sleep around with strange gods.
are the lights on???? anybody home???????? tell me you are not so daft!!!!! make a liar out of me, please!!!\ I stand in doubt of you. but before you tell me I am patronizing you, look in the mirrir, clowns. Do not patronize me with your insicerity and lies. Humble yoursleves prostate beofre God and declare that you are found out and delivered to yourselves with the declaration of your own device. you turned your owqn hapless selves out. get a grip, kids. or dance.... 
and hang onto your penny...
for the fiddler wants his pay....
  
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Wouldee the voice in your head that chimes the following is a voice that is talking to you, not someone else. You should listen to it because you are talking to yourself.
"you are following the pied piper of your delusional fantasies hoping against hope that it is true.
and the funniest part is that you are serious!!! when will you daft, dense and pseudo intellectuals realize that truth and sincerity actually make a difference in your lives? WHen will you get it through your thick enebriated delusional and confused minds that insincerity and lies is your only problem in learning anything? " |
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Wed 08/13/08 05:28 PM
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if God put that on your heart, Jeannie, then, well...............
he was talking to you sweets. He can tell me for Himself. I listen.
get it?  
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if God put that on your heart, Jeannie, then, well............... he was talking to you sweets. He can tell me for Himself. I listen.
get it?
No, you don't listen. You don't even listen to the voices in your head who talk to you with the truth about your own belief. You don't listen. You put your hands over you ears and you sing, "Na na Nah na La la la la la ..I can't here you blah blah!" You don't listen at all. JB |
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Why do you waist your time Jeanniebean? Leave the children alone. They aren't ready yet. They'll come around when they're ready. The only reason they are trying to prove their religion is because they don't believe it themselves. It's obvious they don't have and good reasons to believe it it. They'd just taking temper tantrums because they are so frustrated. Put on some soothing music and read a good book. Drew just told me about a book by a priest who's eyes were opened to the truth of God. His name is James Kavanaugh. He left the priesthood to worship the real living God. Here's a webpage of his books: http://www.celestineview.com/kavanaugh.htm The following is a poem by him entitled; My Easy God is Gone http://www.recoveryemporium.com/Articles/MyEasyGodPoem.htm A priest who finally found his way.
It takes more faith that most people can muster to face the truth that their religion is a lie. It takes more faith than most people can muster to truly trust god.
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Here is the TRUTH - who can deny it? As long as any part of any theory, that the human mind can create, remains open ended, humans will create possiblities to fill the open spaces. The significant difference in the possibilities offered, is that some would fill the open spaces of a theory with that which can not be tested or proven "religious faith", while others seek to fill the space with ideas based on the history of previously accepted and proven knowledge. Yes, those ideas need to be proven yet, but unlike "religious faith" the ideas of men based on previously proven knowledge can, and probably will, eventually, be proven or disproven. That which the religious have faith in, can never be proven, or it can no long be faith driven, and we would no longer be a world concerned with science, would we? As for the OP - As long as new poeple are introduced to the religion posts, the old religionists see an opportunity to convert. Fortunately, as a recent "agenda" thread indicates, there are many who will not let the sheep be hearded without a fight to make those sheep hear another side.
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If god created it all, then who created god?
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As for the OP - As long as new poeple are introduced to the religion posts, the old religionists see an opportunity to convert. Just the fundies. As far as I'm concern people can believe in flying pigs, and it's all the same to me anyhow. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 08/13/08 10:36 PM
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Why do you waist your time Jeanniebean? You are right of course. I waste my time. 
Leave the children alone.
Okay.
They aren't ready yet. Put on some soothing music and read a good book. Okay. 
Drew just told me about a book by a priest who's eyes were opened to the truth of God. His name is James Kavanaugh. He left the priesthood to worship the real living God. Here's a webpage of his books: http://www.celestineview.com/kavanaugh.htm The following is a poem by him entitled; My Easy God is Gone http://www.recoveryemporium.com/Articles/MyEasyGodPoem.htm A priest who finally found his way.
It takes more faith that most people can muster to face the truth that their religion is a lie. It takes more faith than most people can muster to truly trust god.
Cool.
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If god created it all, then who created god? The fundies. 
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wow
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitateor see yourselves basking in your own glow of self absorption I so love double entenders.
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If god created it all, then who created god? The fundies.
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Thu 08/14/08 12:14 AM
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king abra says,
It takes more faith than most people can muster to truly trust god. we are waiting for you to know it........ some day when you have time, eh, abra? do try.....  
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There's clearly no need for a judgmenal God anymore. We have Wouldee to judge us now!
He'll judge everyone and God can go on sabbatical.
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As for the OP - As long as new poeple are introduced to the religion posts, the old religionists see an opportunity to convert. Just the fundies. As far as I'm concern people can believe in flying pigs, and it's all the same to me anyhow. I think that's a bit unfair, everyone does their part to convert everyone else. I know it's sometimes hard to see our own behavior and the behavior of others objectively. It comes with practice. It's also important that we not project our expectations onto other's words.
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As for the OP - As long as new poeple are introduced to the religion posts, the old religionists see an opportunity to convert. Just the fundies. As far as I'm concern people can believe in flying pigs, and it's all the same to me anyhow. I think that's a bit unfair, everyone does their part to convert everyone else. I know it's sometimes hard to see our own behavior and the behavior of others objectively. It comes with practice. It's also important that we not project our expectations onto other's words.
It's not unfair at all Spider. Jesus agrees with Miguel and not with you. John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jesus does not judge the non-believer. You can't tell people that it's wrong to not believe. You're totally out of line. That's against Jesus' own words.
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As for the OP - As long as new poeple are introduced to the religion posts, the old religionists see an opportunity to convert. Just the fundies. As far as I'm concern people can believe in flying pigs, and it's all the same to me anyhow. I think that's a bit unfair, everyone does their part to convert everyone else. I know it's sometimes hard to see our own behavior and the behavior of others objectively. It comes with practice. It's also important that we not project our expectations onto other's words.
It's not unfair at all Spider. Jesus agrees with Miguel and not with you. John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jesus does not judge the non-believer. You can't tell people that it's wrong to not believe. You're totally out of line. That's against Jesus' own words.
I haven't said that, have I? So I must assume you mean "you" and "you're" and impersonal pronouns. I agree, it is wrong to say. Christians should stand as lights in the world. And it is unfair to judge someone for behavior which you indulge in, but as I said, it's sometimes very difficult to be objective. |
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And it is unfair to judge someone for behavior which you indulge in, but as I said, it's sometimes very difficult to be objective. It's not a matter of fairness Spider. It's a matter of religion. If you claim to believe in the words of a God that are written in a doctrine then you must believe in those words and act on them accordingly. Otherwise what would be your agenda? 
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