i think that those who debate here on the religious thread try to show their "logic" as well as they are able in all matters discussed. But there is "reason" also that i think sometimes is left out of the mix. For example:

War in my opinion is not logical, physical harm to another is not logical, - yet i can see it as "reasonable" for mankind's past and present and even sadly our future.

It's to me reasonable in this way - if someone or country is is being aggressive against another than for no more reason than they want what that country has, then it is reasonable for the country being attacked to defend themselves from such intentions as the aggressor may have.

The same would hold true if someone was personally assaulted or loved ones assaulted in the same manner without provocation.

any thoughts??

no

My thought is why do SOOOOO many athiests, agnostics, and non-religious people feel the need to bombard the religion section with rants and raves? Have the mods start a new section for you, and maybe call it "non-religion" and have all the fun you seek there.

Would you go to a thread titled "women's issues" repeatedly as a single male? I think not.

BTW, I don't have an issue with people that have no religion, but am tired of people bashing me because I have God in my life. It's in the Constitution that we can BOTH be right in our beliefs.

Voxsteven: Simply moving on past the post (since you had no thoughts on the subject did not appeal to you because????? Just curious......

Anyway, to the OP, I think your point is a good one. I am inclined to ask however whether the two are mutually exclusive? In other words, let's take your premise that war is not logical, that killing during war is not logical but in some cases is reasonable. My question is: Can there be reason without logic or logic without reason? I don't believe so but it is not a simple question.

In order to find something reasonable I would first have to have "reasons" to convince me. Reasons, I would argue, would be poor indeed if not come to using logic. On the other hand, if I find something logical, it seems difficult to me that I would not also find it reasonable though the latter in this case would be easier to wrap my mind around than the former. I guess computers can use logic without reason but to the extent that computers only do what humans ask them to I think that might pose some issues.

Pure logic without emotion, hmmmm, this has me thinking. Pure reason without logic---that seems tougher. Pure emotion without logic I would agree happens all the time, but I'm not so sure about reason.

Very interesting topic.

-Drew

all ready tried that EL, a spiritual forum - it evidentally has been shot down- they told me they took it under advisement and i heard no more -

thnx Drew, i to don't think you can seperate the two but some seem to think they can - thus - my question. to me the two cant really be seperated.

Well, I suppose it is partly because we are allowed to come here and discuss whatever we'd like providing we follow the community rules. Had the Mods wanted to create a skeptics board then my guess is that they would have done so. Rants and Raves are not, by the by, reserved for those who doubt or who are skeptical. I am sure that it would be easier if doubters and skeptics like me went elsewhere but preaching to the choir is easy and it does not challenge a person to grow. Though I disagree with many people in this forum I do listen to each person here and try to take something out of what they are saying. I don't have to agree to learn and I don't have to convert to be made richer. I think when you look at this forum as a whole the people here get along pretty well. It gets heated and at times people lose their cool but since when did great ideas and thoughts occur in a vacuum. I'm a pretty simple person--I really don't come here to rant and rave. That stated, I will hold people as accountable as they hold me.

Hope that answers part, if not all of your question.

-Drew

My thought is why do SOOOOO many athiests, agnostics, and non-religious people feel the need to bombard the religion section with rants and raves? Have the mods start a new section for you, and maybe call it "non-religion" and have all the fun you seek there.


If your faith is strong then welcome the skeptic. We are to answer every man. How do we get stronger without knowing the other sides view.

They bring out things you would of never thought of about your faith.

The question is then are you going to take a good hard look at what you believe or follow the " just believists" and be blind to the world. Blessings...Miles

You don't have to explain your lack of faith to me, and I'm not going to explain my having faith to you.

Then why worry about it? If it bothers you then obviously there is some level of personal doubt. Overcome that or your faith will fail.

If you keep everyone separated, us skeptics will eventually reason everything out agree it is all pointless anyway; basically just sit around twiddling our thumbs and have no need for any conversation. You believers will keep coming up with wild, wacky, and wonderous explanations for everything that we have no evidence to examine. There won't be anyone too keep you grounded, or appreciate the colorful nature of your beliefs.

I think it is reasonable to action against unreasonable people. I'd even go as far as to say - it's logical. Even as far as rallying to someone's defense - in addition to mere self defense.

If there was a section here for.. lets say.. people that have served in the military, would people that have not served, and have no thoughts pertaining to the subject make posts asking why would/or has someone served? I think not.

I have faith. At one time in my life, I went from being Catholic, to agnostic, to athiest, then back to agnostic, and finally (as of 15 yrs ago) Catholic again. For me to have to explain myself, and my faith, in my mind is like having to explain why I speak 3 languages, or why I like motorcycles.

I am not a person that feels any need to explain myself to anyone that I'm not involved with personally; i.e. friends, lovers, or family.

Likewise, I am not one to ask someone about their lack of faith, or get on a high horse, and try to convert someone from a lack of faith, or a different belief, be it a Mormon, a Jew, a Satanist, or what have you.

If a person is decent (by man's standards), and does nobody any ill-will, I have no problem with them at all. I do, however, have a problem with those people that put a God, any God, into the mix when it comes to killing others.

I spent nine years in the American army, and have seen combat twice. I have had to kill people in the process of doing what my country asked me to do in those nine years. Do I have faith that I may go to Heaven? I have asked my God for forgiveness, and I will find out when my time comes. Do I, or have I lost sleep because of what I had to do in Iraq? No. My fellow soldiers live's were in jeopardy, and me being a soldier was first, and foremost in my mind at that moment. Did I put their lives in front of what my bible tells me is just, and right, and good? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes, without a moments hesitation.

Not all "non-Christians" come here to discredit Christianity. Many come here not at all to seek arguments. You may have something very valuable to teach one who doesn't declare a Religion (and visa versa). What you have to teach doesn't have to mean that you're right and they've been wrong all along. Perhaps we can learn the most from those who DON'T share our views.

First, thank you for your service to our nation. No matter what, I respect that and nothing will change that. That stated (and meant) no one is asking you to justify your faith or to be swayed by those who are skeptical of such things. You are free to sort through and post on only those topics that appeal to you. If you do not like what skeptics like me write then you are more than free to move past our posts and either create your own or answer only those you feel comfortable with.

But I am not going anywhere. This is the only appropriate forum (at this time) to discuss God/religion/spirituality, and skepticism regarding those things.

No, I would not go to a site set up for those who have served in combate except to offer a heartfelt thanks for their having done so but your analogy is not a good one as it relates to this site.

Christianity is supposed to be inclusive not exclusive. Jesus, it is written, did not come to earth for the just but for the unjust. Now, I don't have to walk lock-step with that idea or belief but it seems to me that if your beliefs are rooted in those things biblical you would view this forum as an opportunity to share your faith, your life, and those things that you have been through that have aided in strengthening your faith.

I have never mocked anyone (not once) in this room for their faith. I have questioned why people believe what they believe and asked a ton of questions surrounding those beliefs. At times (as I mentioned) those conversations get heated. But there is no one here that I dislike because of their faith. I would gladly share a meal, a laugh, or a tear with anyone in this community.

If that seems overly sentimental, I'm OK with that. The notion that skeptics are cold-hearted or uncaring is nothing new. That it is false is an entirely different issue and one I'll not address here except to say that I do live by a set of moral codes/ethics. That I don't do so for a deity, that I do so because I believe it is within me to do might make us different on many levels but not on the one that perhaps matters most--that we treat each other with respect and with dignity. I don't need a pew to pray in or a Bible to read to treat you with respect. I don't need a hell to fear or a heaven to gaze upward to in order to feel compassion. I don't need a man nailed to a cross or a flood of parables to feel moved to give to another.

If everything you believe is true--if it has indeed made you a better and richer person then I would never attempt to talk you out of or diminish what you've come to find as solace. I ask nothing but the same.

We all have more in common that we like to admit. We are all human, we all bleed, laugh, cry, and smile. We all have the capacity for love and for hate. Finally, we all need one another. Some things transcend dogma and religion and some---they do not.

In the meantime, I am glad you are here posting. I am sure I will learn something from you along the way and I again, I am thankful for the service you've provided your country.

-Drew

Well, that was refreshing, Drew. And heartfelt. I would break bread with you also.

I have seen here (not this particular thread) some very ill words thrown in both directions. At that time, it made me feel that I would never want to participate in this forum. Not due to the fact that ill words were used.. 9 years in the army, and another 9 years as a cop has roughened me up.. But the fact that a fellow Christian would turn vile.

I am not trying to offend anyone without faith by that statement, either. It's just in my mind, if you are trying to make a point about BEING a Christian, you have to walk the walk of one, and refrain from such tactics.

I love people of all faiths, and lack of faiths. It is what my God has commanded me to do. There are those inside religion that profess to be better than others because they have a different slant on the same God. Also, those that use their God as a reason to hurt or kill another. I say Horsepuckey.

My God told me to love my brothers, and by doing that, be closer to Him. I cannot explain my faith. It has left me at times, and it has been VERY strong at other times. But, in my mind, my God has never left me, although I left Him.

My nine years in the army was not a conflicting time for me, because when I entered, at 17 yrs old, I was already agnostic, but I didn't realize it until later on. It was later, when I regained my faith that the conflicts arose.

I will come back here, and I will post my opinions to those that keep it civil. From what I see here, everyone that's involved in this particular thread falls into that category. We may not agree, but at least we can agree to disagree.


Sully

thanks everyone, Sully i hope the thread continues this way also, it would be a nice change of pace.

Eljay, i to think it is reasonable to talk of these things or i would not participate at all. That said i would much more enjoy it if it were kept to opinions and questions and answers that are logical/rational, instead of ones where unprovable opinions reighn and war against one another -peace my friend.

E. Sully

Miles,
Drew,
SplendidLife,
FDP,

VS,