Well that's what I mean... I was not referring to you or some of the others here. You make legit points & I welcome sincere discussion.

I think some like to bring contentious arguements into it & my response then is for THEM to seek God. It's not like I didn't have issues with God myself. I certainly did! I get stubborn...I said God show me! ...and He did show me what I didn't know I was looking for.

I just never took my issues with God out on other people.

Well I think it's over now... I think Ben & I are ok with eachother now. Good thing too...

BTW... my orignal post was from my experience with God and surely backed up by scriptures. That is important to know what you believe & that it lines up with God's word...for Christians that is. Just sayin'...

Exactly.

And what's the deal with sharing "faith"? Faith is just a belief in something that you confess that you don't know to be true. If you had proof you could give that instead of "sharing faith".

The "sharing faith" idea is truly a worn-out cliché.

Let's share some truth and wisdom for a change.

The truth is that the entire premise of the bible is that man is responsible for all the imperfections in the world and the things that we call 'evil'. The Bible claims that man is responsible for bringing death into the world as well as all the other nasty things that we, as humans, don't like.

This book was written by men who didn't know any better.

Today, we know better. We know without a shadow of a doubt that plants and animals lived long before mankind ever came on the scene. There was death, destructions of all manner, decay and even things that we would call 'evil' activities. Animals would steal food from each other, and eat their eggs and young. They were also highly territorial and would fight for territory. Mankind doesn't have anything over the animals, they were doing 'evil' things long before mankind ever appeared on the planet.

Today we know these things are true, just like we know that the sun is the center of the solar system.

So the very premise of the Bible that mankind is responsible for bringing sin and death into the world can't possible be true.

We know now that the Biblical myth is just that. A myth made up by men who weren't well informed about the true nature of reality.

So, I'm just sharing truth and wisdom. No faith required.

The idea that we have all fallen from the grace of God and we need a savior is a farce. It's an ancient myth that was designed on the superstition that blood sacrifices can appease the gods and thus wash away our "sins" making the gods happy again. This culminated into a fairytale about the god sending his own son as a sacrificial lamb to appease himself for the sins of all mankind.

The whole sin and salvation trip is a myth. Blood doesn't wash away sins. Mankind is not responsible for the dog-eat-dog competitive nature of the world. We can indeed rise above it if we wish to, but we don't need to feel guilty about it because we didn't cause it. If anything some of us have risen above it. Hopefully given enough time all of us will eventually rise above it.

In the meantime, the only 'faith' people seem to be sharing is the 'faith' that they believe we are the cause of it and we must appease the gods for our guilt. But clearly that 'faith' is misplaced.

A better place to put our 'faith' would be in ourselves. We should have 'faith' that as a species of living animal we can indeed rise above it. And one way to start rising above it would be to quit trying to force ignorant mythologies down each other's throats. That's not helping anything.

We need to recognize that we have an opportunity to rise above the dog-eat-dog nature of the world, and quit trying to force everyone into believing that we were the cause of it.

That has been proven not to be true. We are not the cause of the imperfections and apparent 'evil' in the world. It was here long before we were.

Telling people that they are responsible for bringing sin and death into the world and that they need to appease god by buying into an ancient mythology isn't doing anyone any good. We need to rise above those ancient mythologies and start dealing with reality for the sake of all humanity.

These judgmental religions only serve to pit man against man, nation against nation, and cause undue political unrest and turmoil in the world. They serve no good purpose at all. They cause more pain for humanity than good. The sooner we put them behind us the better off we will be.

Why support such a negative philosophy of life. We need to find some way to get humanity on a positive course. Religions aren't the answer. Mutual respect for humanity as a whole and for our Mother Earth is where we need to be putting our attention and effort.

Telling everyone they are sinners is nothing more than negative mumbo-jumbo that serves no purpose but to start arguments and wars. Why do we choose to go down that path?

Let's wake-up people! Smell the roses. Start thinking Positive Thoughts.

Let's put these negative archaic judgmental religions behind us. We can see that they are based on incorrect information and are basically lies for all intents and purposes. Why worship a lie? Aren't we interested in truth? We are not responsible for the dog-eat-god nature of the world. We were born into it. We are innocent! We are not "sinners". At least not all of us. Clearly there are bad apples. But why smear their crap onto the rest of us? That's just so negative. Let's move on to a more positive philosophy of life. Please.

These accusatory judgmental mythologies are breaking my heart.

They only serve to create malevolence in the world, they don't not overcome it. History has shown us that clearly.

Well said Abra.

"If I am a good person then why do I need a savior?" Good question. For me it is like Jesus is telling me, "You don't want to get hung up on a cross like I did do you? It is like damn if you do and damn if you don't. You just can't save some people but some you can. But the important thing is to save yourself. Don't worry about the world. It is hopeless. God tried to save it and I tried to save it. The world just doesn't want to be saved. So just do the best you can."

The thought that the earth is only 6000 years old is a myth.

I do not disagree with that. The earth was here when satan fell and rebelled.

The wording thier about 7 days speaks about the earth was darkened to begin with.

This is why we see the day start at evening.

The earth was without form and void.

What does science tell us happens if the sun would be darken for any length of time on the earth?

I believe all would die.

This is even one of the therories that something happened to block out the sun and take us to an ice age.

This is what the scriptures refer to.

Gen 1:1-5

In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. This does not say the earth is 6000 years old at all. It just points to the beginning of everything. Why would he create in the beginning a darked earth? No something happened. The earth was here most likely for millions of years before this happened the darkening of the earth. Here is a big jump to the earth being nothing. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then Elohim said,"Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was good; and Elohim divided the light from the darkness. 5 Elohim called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
NKJV

We know through science finding dinasors and what ever that the earth was not always dark. They could not of lived. We also know something colossal happened to kill everything also.. We have no connection to anything alive do we from millions of years ago. I may be wrong but i just do not think we have any strong heritage of anything from millions of years ago.

So something happened to kill off everything and something had to of happened to bring man back to life since we do have the neotralthal man.

So what proof is thier of how man became again? Shalom...Miles

Response to 'Trout:
So is saving the world something an omnipotent and
omniscient God actually cannot do?

If God knows all that ever was and ever will be, then why would he make a devil, and by proxy be responsible for death and evil unless he intended it?

If in fact God has intended this (and so far passed the validity test) then both "good" and "evil" are facets of the divine and part of God's plan. Therefor the concept of salvation is irrelevant as no matter what path in life you choose you are participating in the divine plan and doing the will of God.

Any other conclusion necessarily infers that God is either not Omnipotent, not Omniscient, or at best insane and malevolent, else why would a divine entity create the setting for harm and suffering to befall his creation in a universe he supposedly has absolute control over?


Response to Miles:
Point well taken. There is quite an amount of confabulated doctrine that people take as scripture when it is merely the conjecture of men who claim to know.

Having grown up in (and obviously departed from) a rather fundamentalist denomination I was also taught that the age of the earth, Biblical literalism, and church doctrine were unarguable facts and truth.

It's pretty bad the denomination consensus is that even other denominations in the same protestant tradition are all hell-bound because they don't believe the truth.

Most Christians rely far far too much on faith, and by that I mean faith that the sermons that the Pastor orates is well founded, and that the quoted scripture is contextually intact.

When you critically read the Bible you find many of the traditional views are not valid. It does not invalidate the entire book; there are still many good points in it, and it has a profound historical lesson when properly examined.

In no way does it contain information which is a substitute for fact or reason, nor is it meant too.

You cannot state that the Bible is the literal truth and then selectively tell me which parts are allegories and fables and which can be substituted for scientific understanding.

You can state that it is a collection of traditions, stories, and wisdom passed down through the ages, perhaps divinely inspired that influence your outlook on life, and that's fine with me.

Blatantly state that it is the absolute truth and flawless and prepare to be laughed at.

Catch 22. Now you're getting it. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

This is not what i asked. This is called bait and switch.

The proof is on you of how man appeared again when he was a primitive creature. If the dinasors could not survive this collassal event then it would be safe to say man did not either.

The dinasor has not shown back up on the seen since then.

Can you show me proof of how man showed back up on earth again.. Shalom...Miles

you need a savior to point out the fact that you really aren't a good person you only think you are ..and you also need a savior to tell you that the only way to be a good person is if you have them as your savior

No, it clearly doesn't. Many of the missionaries who worked under Paul were women. Pricilla, Phebe, and Junia were all women noted for being great evangelists. In fact, Paul called Junia an apostle, because she was such a strong voice for God. And Phebe was a Deacon (leader) within the church. Women are forbidden from having authority over men, which means that a man has to have authority over female preachers. The reason for this is that women are more easily deceived spiritually (in general). This is caused by a womans very nature, that they are trusting and loving (in general). (If you look at Oprah's cult, you will see that it is largely female Christians who have been deceived into believing Oprah's version of univeralism.) But as long as she is being guided by a senior male preacher, her teaching is fully scriptural.

Miles:
I think we are on the same track and misunderstand each other.

I won't offer proof that man existed at point near the extinction event. There is no evidence either geological/archeological, nor anecdotal from any religious text that is was so.

I happen to believe that man developed into the creature he is today from ancestor species that survived that event... there is proof that some creatures did in fact survive this.


Funches, and all:
Why not then just consider me your savior, and I will save you the time and anguish and tell you right now you are a good person?

This is absolutely perfectly correct.

Any creator that creates a world where souls can be lost to eternal damnation is already an inept creator.

Moreover, philosophers have already described worlds where complete free will is possible without the need to lose any souls. It's called "pantheism".

How could mere mortal men come up with a better design for reality than their very own creator?

Clearly that's an oxymoron. Therefore any religion that claims that God is that inept necessarily must be wrong.

This religion fails every possible test for legitimacy, on every level, physical, philosophical, and even common sense, yet people still continue to support it.

I think they just get off on claiming to 'Speak for God'. It makes them feel like they are righteous and that they are being wrong 'crucified' for supporting "God's Word".

It truly is the epitome of arrogance and it's an easy trap to fall into. Once a person feels like they are speaking for God it's impossible to reason with them. They have gone beyond the realm of sanity and reason.

This is the danger of any religion that claims to have the "Word of God". Even when it can be shown to be lies, people still insist that it's the "Word of God".

Well, if that's the case then the book contradicts itself. Man can hardly be responsible for bringing evil and death into the world if it was already here via Satan.

So either way the story falls apart.

Take your choice.

It's either wrong because it's doesn't match the real world,...

Or,... it's wrong because it's self-inconsistent in its own proclamations.

Either way man can't be held responsible for bringing evil and death into the world.

I rest my case.

Ahemmm..........early on Jesus himself used the strength and wisdom of women to preach his word. He used women to communicate and show His way. He used women to stop a war. He used women to teach. Women were the only ones left at His side at the cross. Women are the ones that didn't run when the skys went black and the storms ran across the sky.Women followed Him throughout His history, even to His death. Jesus repeatedly turned to women to show His love, His mercy, His salvation. Does that sound like Jesus (God) had no dependence towards women to send out His message??

Kat

yea i think so too. fdp1177


So see thier is no proof man came from another spicies.. This is a fairy tale made up by man.

So see science does not have any answers why man showed up again after all of his enemies the dinosors became extict in a short period of time.

If they can not show proof of how man came back to life since neatheral man is shown to of existed before this time..

The scriptures are right on base of what happened to the world and thier distinction.

If this knowledge of this collosal event was not discovered by scientists untill recent years.

Then the proof is thier that a creator shows us what did happen and how man came to be again.

This is not a fairy tale this is logical reasoning that no one had this type of knowledge or proof 4000 years ago lets say.

If this is true then it would be logical to assume that our creator also gave us the Holy scriptures to live by after his recreation.

The fairy tale is Darwin and his coharts therories which should be completely discarded as a perpertrated lie.

Blessings...Miles

I am truly sorry but no one and I mean no one....can talk about faith as if they know.....because you do not know what it is if you have not experienced it...and therefore have no say it what it's meaning is.

In all honesty Kat, this just sounds to me like Jesus had absolutely nothing in common with the God of Abraham.

For someone who was supposed to be the God of Abraham he sure didn't seem to support the same ideals.

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek. But the God of Abraham taught an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

In Jesus' day the Jews were still stoning sinners to death supposedly (via the directive given to them by the God of Abraham). But Jesus didn't seem to approve of that act. So again we see a huge difference in persona.

Now you're pointing out the fact that Jesus viewed and treated women differently than the God of Abraham did in the Old Testament.

Just more reason for me to believe that they weren't the same persona.

I mean, I'm not trying to be argumentative. But why is it that everything seems to always contradict itself in this book that is supposed to be from an all-wise un-changing creator?

Just sounds like mixed-messages to me. Who are we supposed to believe? Jesus? Or the God of Abraham? Clearly they don't support the same philosophies.

Why would an all-wise creator send mankind a self-inconsistent book that sends mixed messages?

For me, that alone is a huge problem.

A book that is supposed to be from an unchanging God but it keeps changing what it wants from us. That's a mixed message right there.

There's no need to even bring 'evolution' into it.

It doesn't matter how man got here. The Pixies could have brought him here. The fact still remains that there was death, decay, and violence in the world before he got here.

No need to even bring up the topic of evolution.

It doesn't matter how he god here. The world was already dog-eat-dog before he arrived.

That's the only important point. Man can't be responsible for what was already here before he arrived.

Even if you want to claim that God created him at that point, he was still placed into a world that was already imperfect and dog-eat-dog.

You just can't blame man for the the way the world is because it was already that way before he arrived. No matter whether he evolved or was placed here already fully assembled.

The original post here was sent with good and heartfelt intentions but it was pure proselytizing. It seems then when people disagree or create arguments to the contrary of the original post there is a charge of simply creating an argument. I have read through all of the posts on this thread. Most of them are well thought out, and most of them ask serious questions about the contradictions and logical inconsistencies that surround the Christian faith.

But it seems that most of those questions and disagreements are simply met (by some) with childish charges of "just wanting to argue." Talk about ignoring the point. Arguments in this room are a good thing. No one is out torching clinics or hurting people over their faith--or lack thereof. But if people are going to post faith-based threads in a public community and then get worked up over the fact that some people are going to disagree, then perhaps the posts should not be made.

The OP had to do with why we need a Savior? Who here thought that wasn't going to create some banter and some debate? It seems to me that at times, posts are created that take the side of the Christian faith and then anyone who dares to disagree is accused of being egotistical, argumentative, or even downright insulting.

Any faith that cannot be laid open and seriously considered and debated is not only unworthy of a God but is unworthy of anything that looks like serious belief. Shouldn't people of faith welcome such critiques?

It really makes me wonder about the level of understanding of a faith when even the most elementary arguments are discounted as nothing more than mean spirited arguments.

Sad.

-Drew