Josephus: (37 - 95)

It appears that even the most famous historian of the period, Josephus, appears to have overlooked the extraordinary exploits of Jesus:

"The entire works of Josephus, which constitute many volumes of great detail encompassing centuries of history, there is no mention of Paul or the Christians, and there are only two breif paragraphs that purport to refer to Jesus. Although much has been made of these "references" they have been dismissed by scholars and Christian apologists alike as forgeries, as have been those referring to John the Baptists and James, "brother of Jesus." No less an authority than Bishop Warburton of Gloucester (1698-1779) labeled the Josephus interpolation regarding Jesus "a rank forgery, and a very stupid one too." (REF: Richard Elliott Friedman, "Who wrote the Bible" New York: harper Collins 1997) pp.17-18)

To ignore this history is to accept a continuing policy of concealment rather than to finally confront the truth. But this is precisely what has happened. In its stead, scholars have developed a tool for assessing the relative reliability for this mountain of dubious data.

JB

Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant


Michael Grant is an atheist historian who doesn't doubt that Jesus existed.

Here: http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm you can see that scholarly historians, even atheists ones, do not doubt that Jesus existed.

The burden of proof lies with the people who claim that Jesus existed, not the other way around.

Just because Michael Grant claims to be an "atheist" historian does not lend credibility to his opinion. And without proof, that is all it is, his opinion. He must show evidence outside of the bias of the Christian dogma for valid historical proof that Jesus existed.

It is the lack of unbiased non-gospel evidence that Jesus existed that is key. The writings of Josephus in regard to references to Jesus are said to be "a rank forgery, and a very stupid one too.". By scholars of no less authority than Bishop Warburton of Gloucester (1698-1779)

An "atheist" historian may conclude (or be of the opinion) that a man existed but he cannot conclude that this man's name was Jesus or that this man was a god or the son of god, simply because he claims to be an atheist.

Indeed, a man upon the myth of Jesus was hung may have existed. According to Jewish historians his name was Joseph Ben Panthera, a Jewish rabi, who lived to the age of 65 and was stoned to death.

JB

I do find it interesting and informative how many so called experts spend so much time trying to debunk something they say is just made up.

this in itself says volumes. Buy i am glad i am seeing all this brought out as it futhers my studies and brings light to pure hatred of a man from 2000 years ago who never existed.

not even our terrorists will deny he was.
Even in the scripture is some advice that is so true. 2 jews speaking to each other about the WAY say should we do something. The other says no leave it alon. If it is from Yahweh who can fight against it.. If it is from man it will fade away
what wisdom..

I have never seen this much denial and search for facts to prove someone was not any other religion by far.

We will teach our children greek mythology in school as a cource they need to have.

Yet a man who millions believe in our same school system and govt. since this is the school system does it's best that this is not taught as anything period.

We are told we are not trying to be the world police. and of cource it is defended as truth.

We just decide where we want to police.

It is not for everyone. It needs to be in the Elites best intersest.

i wonder why a book and a carpenters son is such a threat to the Elite that it is worthy of our Police'ing..Blessings ...Miles

It is the outright lie and the reason for it that the truth seekers "hate." The idea of a perfect man, a god man is nothing to hate. You can't hate a non-existent person. You can only debunk the myth.

It is this myth that the Church rest upon as it attempts to control people's lives and the course of the world for its own selfish means and greed.




The truth seekers search for evidence that he did exist.. evidence outside of the Church gospel itself. There is none.




If you teach your children about myths, I am sure you can include Jesus as one of them. It is when you attempt to teach the story of Jesus and call it history where you have the problem. There is no proof that this is history. Teach it as a myth and you can put Jesus back in your mythology classes.




The only threat in this world of lies is the truth. The biggest threat to all religion is the truth.

JB

P.S. Also, the biggest threat to the "Elite" you refer to is the truth. They don't seek to destroy religion. They use it for their purposes. In fact, they help create new religions all the time. Religion is their friend. It is fuel for their wars.

We know now that the world was imperfect long before mankind ever came onto the scene.

We know that the animal kingdom always prayed on one another, robbed their eggs, stole their food, fought over territory. There was imperfections, death, and all the things we normally associated with "evil" long before mankind ever came onto the scene.

The idea that man is responsible for the condition of the world because he fell from the grace of God is a lie. It's not true. It's false. It's been proven to be false by the universe herself.

There's no question at all. The mythology that claims that man's fall from grace from his creator is the cause of evil in this world is false.

There's no question at all.

Why people want to continue to support these obviously false notions are far beyond me. It's not even a pretty picture. Who would anyone want to believe that we fell from grace from our creator?

Why would anyone want to believe that? Especially in the face of the fact that it can't even possibly be true?

I'm very grateful that we have discovered that it can't be true. To me, that's this greatest news I can imagine. Seems to me everyone would rejoice in the great news instead of clinging to the ancient mythologies and trying to claim they have to be true in the face of the overwhelming evidence against them.

Why would anyone want to believe in such a dismal picture of a man/god relationship? Seems to me that only sadomasochists would be supporting it at this stage of the game.

That's just a personal opinion of course. But really, why would anyone want to support such a negative picture of mankind and God when we have every reason to believe that it can't possibly be true?

What's the incentive of wanting to believe it now?

Why would anyone want to believe in this dismal demented picture when the universe itself says that it can’t possibly be true?

I don't understand why people are so determine to believe it in face of the overwhelming proof that it can't possibly be true.

Both of you i know are very intelligent people.

The more information you take in the more proof you need to qualify that what you learned before is true.

Yet we say a not 2000 but i do not really know but 4000+ year old book has to be myth.

In the same breath we will say thier are aliens invading us. How could it be possible with all the planets and such that are billions of miles away not have life.

We believe this with no proof.. Don't we?

We take science and search the fossil records and we look for a connection.

man has to have a connection to something.

Something does not come out of nothing.

So we look around well the fish were in the sea and they started getting guiles to breath.

After they got guiles they started soming on the land and evolving.

After millions of years these fish started to stand up and walk with a hump back.

As time went on they grew hair and finger and toes and they became apes.

Now as the apes began to be over the animal world they had thier brains to start to come alive.

When this happened they started to comunicate by some kind of language.

Now this language evolved and they invented writings.


All this brain power enabled them to stand straight up instead of humped over .

They then began losing hair off of thier body's and thier arms became shorter.

they started now to need clothing. They were getting cold from thier hair loss.

They developed clothes from thier hair loss and started learning more and so they decided they need a creator.

They did not know where they came from anymore.

They were getting so smart that they realized they needed a way to control all of them.

They decided this elaborate plan and put it in the minds of men and women and they split off to different sections of the world.


But they did not all keep the facts right about what thier ancestors had derived as the controlling of man kind.

So now each part of the world has it's own stories about how man came to be.

Then came along electricity and communication that man invented.

They could now share idea's again about thier existance .

the problem now is who's story is correct.

A man comes along and says you all have some connection to each other and all your stories are just that stories.

You see we have found that you came from the sea. from thier to an ape and from thier here we are.


They were so proud of this man. We are sea creatures all of the planet is the same.

If all of everything is the same then i can do and act anyway i want.

I love it.. Thank you for telling us the Truth.


The Moral of the Story is?

When you lose your scales you sink or you die.

Blessings... May Yahweh help us All..Shalom...Miles

JB...

Do you really think that Michael Grant thinks Jesus is God? Of course he doesn't, he is an atheist. He was speaking to the fact that Jesus existed, not that he is God. Your post suggested that Jesus didn't exist because historians at the time didn't mention him, so I posted from an expert who refutes this belief (if you follow my link you will find a half dozen others).

If you follow the below link, you will see that the Talmud doesn't claim that Jesus was born from a Roman soldier, that's a fraud.

Pappos ben Juda, who is claimed in that verse to be Mary's husband, died in 134 AD, according to the Talmud. Jesus was born around 1 BC, so that would mean his father lived around 150 years? Sorry, but it's just wrong and you would know that if you actually looked into these crazy things before you posted them.
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/the_bible_fraud_review_1-4.html

you know what i always find very interesting?
the fact that people so readily believe that this guy, Mohammed, had an angel appear to him and giving him the Qu'ran. And it specifically was the angel Gabriel.
That's easy to believe.....? But to believe in this other guy, Jesus, who existed before that, and the angel Gabriel too came and told people that this guy was coming, is harder to believe?




You're right on that one...

but you do understand that christians aren't doormats....eh?
when christianity is portrayed as a lie or parts of christianity are presented in a false way, and a christian hears or sees that, there must be an opportunity given to justify, or explain in more detail why something may be perceived different from how it originally was intended...
...if you slap my left cheek, maybe i'll do the christian thing and let you slap my right one too....but then i'm out of cheeks (butt cheeks don't count)..and i will hurt you. sorry. i'm not a doormat christian...

The video is definitely an eye-opener to many things. Likewise, it hasn't changed anything in my faith, except for confirming it.

No I do not think that. You did not read my post carefully.

I stated that his only conclusion about Jesus would have to have been that a man existed who people claimed was Jesus. My exact words:

"An "atheist" historian may conclude (or be of the opinion) that a man existed but he cannot conclude that this man's name was Jesus or that this man was a god or the son of god, simply because he claims to be an atheist."

But he could not conclude that 'Jesus" was his real name, or that he was a god. There is no historical information outside of the Church that supports any such conclusion or that the man (or character of Jesus) even exited.

If a man did exist, his name was NOT Jesus and he was not the character described in the gospel. He was just a man whose identity was stolen and used to support a myth.

As for your historian:
He must be an atheist who believes what the Gospels of the New Testament says about Jesus, because that is the only place you will find any valid reference to Jesus. But how can he believe the gospels if he does not believe in god? It seems very suspicious to me. I don't trust his honesty or his authority or his opinion, or his status as an atheist.




I did not make any claims of what the Talmud said about Jesus. The Talmud is just another contrived book that was written for the founding of another religion.

JB

JB,

So the Gospels are invalid, because they are Christian documents? No historian and I mean NO HISTORIAN would agree with you. Not one. Do you know why? Because if that is true, then no Roman documents are valid, because they were made by Romans. No Egyptian documents are valid because they were made by Egyptians. Etc. Etc. Etc. No serious historian doubts that Jesus existed or that his name was Yashua ben Yosef. None. If you do, then you do so against the preponderance of the evidence. That's your choice, but you should be aware that whatever sources are giving you these ideas, they are not scholars and they are not reputable.



You claimed that "According to Jewish historians his name was Joseph Ben Panthera, a Jewish rabi, who lived to the age of 65 and was stoned to death", that claim is only supported by the Talmud and then only through an intentional misinterpretation by whomever made this claim.

If you say that claim is supported by the Talmud then I will take your word for it. (But that is not where I got the information.)

Quite honestly it is moot point as far as I am concerned. If he existed, he was just a Jewish Rabi. I don't care who his father or mother was or who calls it a fraud.

My point is that other than Church gospels, there is no record of Jesus the Christ.

JB

No, they are invalid because nothing supports their validity other than the Church which as you know, had an agenda to create a unified Church based on them. They are also invalid because they are questionable and probably forgeries. They have no contemporary support. They are products of pious fraud. There is no proof of their validity outside the Church, and The Church is totally biased.

The do not pass the scholars test for assessing the relative reliability of this data.

The tests are: The Intention test, The Ability Test, The Character Test, The Consistency Test, The Bias Test, The Cover-up Test, The Corroboration Test, and The Adverse Witness Test.



That is a ridiculous analogy. The Roman documents are probably not creating a religion either. What agenda would they have for forging documents?




Who are you to decide who is or is not "reputable?" You of course, can decide for yourself, but you can't tell me who is or is not reputable.

I see the church involved in an elaborate cover-up of the truth.

More later.

JB

yeah, none of the 17 christs were real. the stories were all made up by international bankers so they can take our money.



i'm outta here...gotta get some work done

The Mythical Yahshua

I would ask myself a few easy question before I would porpote that this is a hoax and you can prove it.

That thier is no other writings by historians?

! thing you must realize is he was not a threat to the Romans.

This is one reason the Jews refused him.

Then it is the jews who wanted to cover this up.

Without that I would ask myself if this man never was why did so many go to thier deaths by 10's of thousands for someone who either never was or of no importance?

Would you give up all you have and Die willingly for any preacher of today?

I doubt it. for sure not tens of thousands years after the mans death.

Besides this line of questioning i will see how you comment on the following Historians and whether they can be believed..Blessings..Miles
note i did leave out most of Josepheus since he is being denied also.

Pliny the Younger

Pliny the Younger was a tribute and magistrate of ancient Rome during the last half of the 1st Century. Later he became governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, a position he held until his death approximately 113 A.D. He was famous for his books of letters that were a mirror of Roman live during that time. In one of his letters, he wrote:

“THEY (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a HYMN TO CHRIST, AS TO A GOD, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food; but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Pliny later added that Christianity attracted both men and women of all ages and social orders, from the city as well as the country. In a letter to Emperor Trajan, Pliny also referred to the teachings of Jesus and His followers as excessive and contagious superstition.

Tacitus

Cornelius Tacitus was born in 55 A.D. He became a senator in the Roman government under Emperor Vespasian. He was eventually promoted to governor of Asia. In his famous work, “Annals.” He wrote in 116 A.D., about the burning of Rome in 64 A.D., and how Caesar Nero had tried to stop the rumor that he had set the fire.

“Therefore, to scotch the rumor (that Nero had burned Rome) Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians CHRISTUS, THE FOUNDER OF THE NAME, HAD UNDERGONE THE DEATH PENALTY IN THE REIGN OF TIBERIUS, BY SENTENCE OF THE PROCURATOR PONTIUS PILATUS, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to bread out once more, not merely in Jdea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue...

“THEY (the Christians) WERE COVERED WITH WILD BEATS’ SKINS AND TORN TO DEATH BY DOGS; OR THEY WERE FASTENED ON CROSSES, AND, WHEN DAYLIGHT FAILED WERE BURNED TO SERVE AS LAMPS BY NIGHT. Nero had offered his Gardens for the spectacle, and gave an exhibition in his Circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer, or mounted on his car. Hence, in spite of a guilt which had earned the most exemplary punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity, due to the impression that they were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state but to the ferocity of a single man.”

(According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Nero had accepted Judaism and had became a Jew before he started burning Christians)

This amazing document verifies that Jesus, or Christus, was a true historical figure, that He lived and was killed during the reign of Caesar Tiberius, that He was sentenced under Pontius Pilate. Tacitus verifies that Christians were viciously tortured by Nero only thirty-two years after the death of Jesus. The historical validity of this letter by Tacitus is doubted by very few scholars. Many of them have stated that Tacitus was:

“UNIVERSALLY CONSIDERED THE MOST RELIABLE OF HISTORIANS, a man in whom sensibility and imagination, though lively, could never spoil a critical sense rare in his time and a great honesty in the examination of the document.”

Think about something here: If these intelligent men and women had not known beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, do you think they would have allowed themselves to be brutally tortured like this to perpetuate a myth?

Maimonides

Maimonides, a very highly revered thirteenth century Jewish rabbi, wrote a fourteen volume work called the “Mishne Torah,” in which he made multiple references to the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

Although he acknowledged Jesus in his writings, the references were derogatory, and the Catholic Church used Maimonides’ work, and his negative references about Jesus, to justify the killing of Jews during the Spanish Inquisition. So in 1631, Catholic and Jewish authorities censored the fourteenth volume, removing all derogatory references to Jesus. Consequently, these references were removed from most of the existing volumes of Maimonides’ writings.

The following excerpt from the uncensored version of the Mishne Torah is another important historical reference to Jesus:

“JESUS OF NAZARETH WHO ASPIRED TO BE MESSIAH and was executed by the court (this was a Jewish court) was also [alluded to] in Daniel’s prophecies (Daniel 11:14), as ‘the vulgar [common] among an attempt of fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.’ CAN THERE BE A GREATER STUMBLING BLOCK THAN CHRISTIANITY? All the prophets spoke of the Messiah as the Redeemer of Israel and its savior, who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their [observation of] the Mitzot [the commandments]. By contrast, [Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnant to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord. Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for his thoughts, our thoughts, [Ultimately], all the deeds of JESUS OF NAZARETH and that Ishmaelite [Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for the Messiah’s coming and the improvement of the entire world [motivating the nations] to serve God together, as [Zephanah 3:9] states: ‘I will make the peoples pure of speech that they will all call upon the Name of God and serve him with one purpose.’”

Here Maimonides verifies that Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure, was executed by the Sanhedrin, that He aspired to be the Messiah, that He was referred to in the prophecies of Daniel as one of the sons of the lawless, and that Jesus led many astray.

It is interesting to note that in this passage Maimonides calls Jesus and His Church “a stumbling block.” That’s exactly what Isaiah said the Messiah would become to both houses of Israel:

“He will be as a sanctuary, but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 8:14, RSV)

History records that the life, teachings, and ministry of Jesus Christ of Nazareth have been a major stumbling block for the Jewish people throughout their entire history, even up until this very day. Through the years, millions of Jews have been persecuted to death because of the curse their forefathers brought upon them as they declared to Pontius Pilate:

“His blood be on us, and on our children.” (Matthew 27:25)

The Roman Papacy, during the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades, and Adolph Hitler, during World War II, used this quote to justify their atrocities against Jews worldwide.

Mara Bar-Scrapion

Mara Bar-Serapion, an impassive Syrian philosopher, wrote the following paragraph in this letter to his son from prison sometime after 70 A.D.

“What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from their EXECUTING THEIR WISE KING? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished.

“God justly avenged these three wise men: The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statute of Hera. NOR DID THE WISE KING DIE FOR GOOD; HE LIVED ON IN THE TEACHING WHICH HE HAD GIVEN.”

In this letter, Mara Ben Serapion refers to Christ as the “wise King.” He is obviously not a Christian because he places Jesus o a par with Pythagoras and Socrates, so he can hardly be described as biased in his reference to Jesus and the church. Therefore, it is another good historical reference regarding the historicity of Jesus.

Lacian of Samosata

In 170 A.D., Lucan of Samosata, a Greek satirist, wrote a very informative statement in one of his letters regarding how and why the early Christians worshiped the way they did:

“THE CHRISTIANS, YOU KNOW; WORSHIP A MAN TO THIS DAY, THE DISTINGUISHED PERSONAGE WHO INTRODUCED THEIR NOVEL RITES, AND WAS CRUCIFIED ON THAT ACCOUNT...You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, AND WORSHIP THE CRUCIFIED SAGE, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

This excerpt confirms that Christians worshiped a crucified Israelite (the author says Jewish, because he doesn’t know the difference), that they faced death bravely and that they despised worldly attributes. He attributes this to the fact that Christians believed they were immortal and would spend eternity with God. There are several other non-Christian historical references to Jesus of Nazareth but since space is limited, and I did want to mention rabbinical sources, let’s move on.

Ancient Rabbinical References to Jesus

Of all the ancient historical references to Jesus, the least favorable would naturally be those of rabbinic origin. You wouldn’t think it, but there were actually quite a large number of references to Christ in early rabbinical writings, but usually they referred to Jesus with such phrases as “that one” or “that man” and of course “Ben Stada.” Consequently, some of the references are considered to be unreliable. Lateron, during the Middle Ages and the early renaissance, most of the references to Jesus of Nazareth were removed from the Talmud and Midrash to avoid conflict. (Here the author shows his ignorance of the Talmud, the jews only changed the name of Jesus to Ben Stada)

As you might expect, the remaining references to Jesus are very unflattering. However, they do verify a number of important historical facts that the gospels proclaim regarding Christ. As mentioned earlier by Shlomo Pines, NO ONE DOUBTED THAT JESUS WAS AN HISTORICAL FIGURE UP UNTIL ABOUT 200-300 YEARS AGO. The “Jesus myth” theory was created and perpetuated by atheists and agnostics and quickly embraced by mainstream Judaism during the Renaissance.

In the Babylonian Talmud, which was compiled between the years 200-500 A.D., in Sanhedrin 43a, there is a fascinating reference to Jesus:

“It has been taught: ON THE EVE OF THE PASSOVER, THEY HANGED YESHU [Jesus]. And an announcer went out in the front of him, for forty days saying ‘he is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray.’ Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.’ But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the Eve of the Passover.”

This is considered to be one of the most reliable rabbinical references to Jesus (“Yeshu”). This passage verifies that Jesus of Nazareth was an historical figure, that He was crucified on the Eve of the Passover and that he did Miracles. The supernatural miraculous events surrounding the life of Jesus were not denied here, but verified, even if the writer did try to explain them away as demonic sorceries.

In his "History of the Talmud" Michael Rodkinson, on page 70, states:

"Is the literature that Jesus was familiar with in his early years yet in existence in the world? Is it possible for us to get at it? Can we ourselves review the ideas, the statements, the modes of reasoning and thinking, on moral and religious subjects, which were current in his time, and must have been evaluated by him during those thirty silent years when he was pondering his future mission (Christ, during these thirty years, had sailed to England with His uncle, Joseph of Armatheia, where He built the first church in England. It is known today as Glastonbury and the land it sits on has never been taxed by the British Government. The Jews tried to destroy it many years ago, but failed. Although badly damaged it still stands today)? To such inquiries the learned class of Jewish rabbis answer by holding up The Talmud...and the question becomes, therefore, an interesting one to every Christian. What is the Talmud? The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time of Christ, was called the Traditions of the Elders and to which he makes frequent allusions."

According to Jewish law it is illegal to perform capital punishment on the Eve of the Passover. However, this record verifies something that we wouldn’t expect to find in a rabbinical source, the fact that the Sanhedrin acted illegally in condemning and crucifying Jesus on Passover. Consequently, this reference is even more valuable in terms of validating the historicity of Jesus. Certainly, if any passage should have been edited from the Talmud, it should have been this one. The fact that a passage which points out an illegal action was retained in the Talmud makes it a credible and valuable source for the historicity of Jesus.

The Nag Hammadi Library

In 1945, 13 leather-bound codices were found near Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt. They contained a library of about 50 documents written by several Gnostic-Christian leaders of the first three centuries, like Valentinus, Saturnius, and others. Their sole purpose for writing these documents was to forge a Gnostic-Christian library of pseudo-gospel accounts, full of false information about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Although the information contained in these Gnostic-Christian writings is packed full of lies and innuendoes about Jesus, they are strong evidence against those who doubt Jesus’ authenticity. Since many of these documents contain references to Jesus and what He taught, they obviously strongly support the fact that Jesus was considered to be the Messiah, and a charismatic leader of the Christian Church.

Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons in France in 180 A.D., is commonly considered by all legitimate Christian scholars to be the greatest of all of the Christian Apologist of the early Christian Church. He wrote many volumes about the authentic Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and what He and His apostles really taught. IN HIS WRITINGS, MANY TIMES HE REFERRED TO THE WRITING OF THESE GNOSTIC-CHRISTIAN “HERETICS,” AND THE “UNSPEAKABLE NUMBER OF APOCRYPHAL AND SPURIOUS WRITINGS, WHICH THEY THEMSELVES [the heretics] HAD FORGED, TO BEWILDER THE MINDS OF THE FOOLISH. Origin, a third century apologist wrote,

“The Church possesses four Gospels, heresy a great many.”

The author did not include the following letters from Pilate to Caesar:

There are those who say that the Scriptures are the only record of Christ's travels on this earth. But that is not true, it is totally false there is a historical record of Christ and it is found in the Archoko Volume in The Congressional Library in Washington, D.C., which contains an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT RECORD OF Pilate's correspondences, which records a meeting he had with Jesus Christ. Plate stated on pages 137‑139:

"To Tiberius Caesar, Emperor of Rome Noble Sovereign, Greetings: '...Among various rumors that came to my ears there was one in particular that came to my attention. A young man it was said, and appeared in Galilee preaching with noble unction a new law in the name of the God who sent him. At first I was apprehensive that his design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled.

“Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a fried of the Romans than as a friend of the Jews. One day in passing by the place of Siloe, where there was a great concourse of people, I observed in the midst of the group a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected, so great was the difference between him and those who listened to him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance an almost celestial aspect. He appeared to be about thirty years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between he and his hearers with their black beards and tawny complexions!...

“Never have I heard in the words of the philosopher, any thing that can compare with the maxims of Jesus. One of the rebellious Jews, so numerous in Jerusalem, asked Jesus if it was lawful to give tribute to Caesar, he replied: 'Render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which are God's...

“I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with him at the praetorium and he came.”

Think now for a moment on your own, without having some Judeo‑Christian preacher tell you that this is fantasy. What would be so strange in this? Even though this meeting is not recorded in the Gospels, we know for a fact, that MOST of what Christ did during His three years of public ministry was never recorded. (See John 21:25)

Pilate's report to Caesar continues:

"You know that in my veins flows the Spanish mixed with Roman blood...When the Nazarene made his appearance, I was walking in my basilic, and my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement, and I trembled in every limb as does a guilty culprit, though the Nazarene was as calm as innocence itself. When he came up to me and stopped, and by a signal sign seemed to say to me, 'I am here!' though he spoke not a word. For some time I contemplated with admiration and awe, this extraordinary type of man, a type unknown to our numerous painter...There was nothing about him that was repelling in its character and I felt awed and tremulous to approach him.

“Jesus, I said to him at last, 'Jesus of Nazareth, for the last three years I have granted you ample freedom of speech (it is not recorded anywhere, either in the Gospels, or Roman historical records, that the Romans ever attempted to suppress Christ's ministry) nor do I regret it. Your words are those of a sage. I know not whether you have read Socrates or Plato, but this I know, there is in your discourse a majestic simplicity that elevates you above those philosophers...'your blood shall not be spilled,' I said, with deep emotion, 'you are more precious in my estimation on account of your wisdom than all the turbulent and proud Pharisees who abuse the freedom granted them by Rome. They conspire against Caesar, and convert his bounty into fear, impressing on the unlearned that Caesar is a tyrant who seeks their ruin...I will protect you against them. My praetorium shall be an asylum both day and night.'

“I am your obedient servant, Pontius Pilate."

You can accept these letters, as I do, since it makes sense, or dismiss it as most of your preachers and church Bible scholars will do. Think for yourself! Doesn't it make sense to you that the Jews would try and suppress this truth, since they were the ones who crucified Him?

And we have the testimony of Josephus in his volumes on the history of the Jew. There are many more documents that could be presented but if this does not suffice they would not either, even if they were thousands of pages long.

Conclusion

The above historical and archeological evidence proves, without the Bible, the existence of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His Gospel Message. Every year the evidence, that Jesus is who He claimed to be, mounts. We know from this information that, at the very least, He was an important historical figure who preached that men should live a moral life. Also, the world needs to consider something else; Jesus also claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Creator of Earth and all life on it.

hi Miles, now this is interesting for posterity sake if nothing else. It is the only refference i have ever heard of jesus having blonde hair? A blonde haired jew? hmmm??? very interesting indeed, how common was that back then? or is it today? get back to me on this if you would. I'm talking from a view point of not ever knowing or reading that any purely jewish israelite was of light complexion or blonde hair, very intersting indeed?

miles:


"To Tiberius Caesar, Emperor of Rome Noble Sovereign, Greetings: '...Among various rumors that came to my ears there was one in particular that came to my attention. A young man it was said, and appeared in Galilee preaching with noble unction a new law in the name of the God who sent him. At first I was apprehensive that his design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled.

“Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a fried of the Romans than as a friend of the Jews. One day in passing by the place of Siloe, where there was a great concourse of people, I observed in the midst of the group a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected, so great was the difference between him and those who listened to him. His ""golden colored hair and beard"" gave to his appearance an almost celestial aspect. He appeared to be about thirty years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. """"What a contrast between he and his hearers with their black beards and tawny complexions""""!...


is there anywhere stated in the bible or any jewish writings that has recorded of israelites/jews of blonde hair and beard? wouldn't you think that if Jesus was that different from the others that at least a similiar comment would have been made by his followers? Were their caucasians living in jerusalem at the time? was mary or joseph not dark complected as all israelilites were then? if so you have some splaining to do.

hearing any one word as either good or bad, and not all as EQUAL is the ROOT of religion, and what truth can be seen thru religious eyes.........

is it not apparent that the "desire" of a person create perception, which determine which words are chosen to be heard.........

is not what one WISHES to believe a desire, which will then "only allow" any being to percieve the meaning LOOKED for.....

MILES.....wonder why it said in text no man FIND god, but GOD or TRUTH find man........

why the ancient chineese saying...........stop looking for the truth and find it.......

why..........if it were a snake it would have bitten me

why..........the truth be hidden in plain site

because if there is a desire, one finds what they wanted to find, lol........

Thanks Tribo

To tell the truth I did not pick up on that. I will have to search.. I was under the impression he was somewhat red headed and his beard as he is called the 2nd Adam and Adam means Red.

Also Judas had to point him out.. So he had to look like every other Jew in some respect.

It is kinda like the last supper picture all the Apostles have short hair but Yahshua has long.. That would of made him easy to find 2.

But we know picso had no idea what the history. think he painted it.

anyway Tribo thanks for pointing that out. I am curious 2 Shalom My Friend..Blessings...Miles

thnx Miles, yes get back to me on that please, shalom