The Irgun,
Put bombs on buses?
The Irgun did exactly that, admitted to it, and claimed it was their right to do so.

60 times before WWII,

April 20, 1936 2 Arab workers in a banana plantation killed -
March, 1937 2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach -
April 12, 1938 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. -
April 17, 1938 An Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa -
May 17, 1938 An Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. -
May 24, 1938 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. -
June 23, 1938 2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv. -
June 26, 1938 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. -
June 27, 1938 An Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. -
July 5, 1938 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv. -
On the same day 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. -
On the same day an Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. -
July 6 1938 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab Melon market in Haifa. -
July 8, 1938 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. -
July 16, 1938 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
July 25, 1938 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
August 26, 1938 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. -
February 27, 1939 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa
and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem. -
May 29, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas. -
June 2, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem -
June 12, 1939 A post office in Jerusalem was bombed, killing a British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs. -
June 16, 1939 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem. -
June 19, 1939 20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa. -
June 29, 1939 13 Arabs were killed in multiple shootings during one-hour period. -
June 30, 1939 An Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta. -
July 3, 1939 An Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
July 4, 1939 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem. -
July 20, 1939 An Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa. -
On the same day 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel-Aviv. -
On the same day 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot. -
August 27, 1939 2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks_during_the_1930s

Many, many more after WWII!

One of their best known and famous leaders would also become an Israeli PM.
His name was Menachem Begin!!!

Menachem Begin joined their ranks in 1941 and really organized and increased the killings and terrorist activities by the Irgun. They too were listed as a terrorist organization by the British, French, Americans, and others.
Their crimes are also way too numerous to list!

After you read all this and study some more. Keep in mind that before the late 1800s less than 3% of the population in Palestine was Jewish!
Then ask your self,
Is Hamas terrorists or freedom fighters?

all the ranting but still no disputing the fact that
Hamas is a terrorist organization.

so you going to list all the others who were killed in
the region? you going to list the jews killed/kicked out of
Iran, Iraq etc...



and around 1000 BC, Israel was ~100% jewish. so what?

Hamas is STILL a terrorist organization.

BTW - here is an accounting of the 4000 year old ties of the jews to the land:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

Anyone sincerely interested in the region should
read the Myths and Facts document which is meticulously
referenced and addresses many misconceptions about the
Arab/Israeli conflict.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

they also have a handy copy of the HAMAS Covenant

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/keytoc.html

YOU DONT CALL THE IRA TERRORISTS????

Are you f'king mad?

Try being 300metres away from a train station when an IRA bomb goes off in a well known huge department store and then ask yourself are you in a state of terror?

They were murderers and butchers.

Not that the British Army didnt do the same. Because they did and I am not excusing the dreadful things the British govt did to the Irish people.

But it was never about religion.

It was always about drugs.

The Protestants and the Catholics wanted control of the drug traffic.

The two leaders of the largest Republican party in Ireland were both the biggest advocates of torture, murder and terror.

Now they are getting older they can see the wisdom of talking and letting the activities carry on behind the scenes.

But NEVER EVER say that the IRA were freedom fighters. They were happy to murder their own people to kill one police man/woman.

Its funny that the US never wanted to put in a peacekeeping force here, as the death of Irish Americans by Irish nationals would have stopped the funding of the IRA by the Irish populations in the US.

Ranting???

You said if a group killed innocent civilians and placed bombs on buses and trains they were terrorist!
You said that, I agree and show you were the Israelis did it regularly then you say I'm ranting???


All you have is the Jewish Library?
Look somewhere, anywhere else then talk to me.
I see you are content with being biased. That helps no one and if that's the way your going to be then there is no talking reality, facts, or history with you!

I agree the Palestinians are guilty, but no more so than the Israelis!!

Here ya go -

From a UN General Assembly resolution which defines terrorism....

“ Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.[16] ”

i think Hamas bus bombings, cafe, marketplace bombings, and random
rocket attacks aimed for city populations without a military target qualify.

another working definition from the UN is
Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime

in other words - something a freedom fighter would not
even do in wartime. you know - human shields, hide
fighters in ambulances or hospitals, purposefully attack
schoolchildren...

that kind of thing.

The Jews were beaten and left Ancient Israel around 540 AD!

Not by the Palestinians, but by the Romans!
They could never have managed a return on their own and didn't.
The British and others help them through the Zionist movement. To repay them the attacked them, killed, them, ignored the UN mandate, and attacked anyone else who got in their way.
Those are the facts, and they are not the facts that the Israelis will willingly tell. They go instead at great lengths to hide and distort the facts to fit their needs and lie to the citizens of the western nations they need for their very survival!

Believe what you may, but that is the truth!

Evidently you didn't read a single incident that I posted!!
Go back up two or three posts and read them.
You just described everything that the Irgun and Stern Gangs did. Even being listed as terrorist organizations by the UN!!
(International)

the question posed by the OP was simple.

is Hamas a terrorist organization? the answer is obviously yes.

the Irgun and Stern attacks you cite from 70 years
ago have no bearing on the question (although none
of them appear to be attacks solely for the purpose
of instilling fear and intimidation through attacks
directed solely at civilians).

i refer to the Myths and Facts documents and ADL
documents for 3 reasons.

1. They are meticulous, easy to find and understand.
2. They show a different perspective.
3. They appear to be factually correct.

Israel does not have and never has had a policy to attack
civilians and you know it. Anyone in Israel who does so
is arrested and prosecuted as in the USA.

oh - here are some other opinions (not ADL or jewishvirtuallibrary)

Steven A. Cook, a Middle East expert at the Council on Foreign Relations, started off the evening by acknowledging several facts, which he immediately said were entirely irrelevant. Yes, he said, Hamas was legitimately elected freely and fairly. Yes, Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank and, until recently, Gaza. Yes, Hamas has done much good with its social programs. But, he said, none of that matters. Hamas' central charter calls for the violent overthrow of Israel. Hamas continues to kill innocent civilians. The group must lay down its arms and renounce its violent charter. Until then, Cook said, Hamas can only be labeled a terrorist group.

John O'Sullivan, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, furthered Cook's argument. He proposed using the definition of terrorist adopted by the Canadian government (a definition, he points out, that the Canadians took from his own writing): "A terrorist is a man who murders indiscriminately, distinguishing neither between civilian and innocent and guilty nor soldier and civilian." Terrorism, O'Sullivan argued, is an issue of tactics, not ultimate goals. There can be pro-Nazi and anti-Nazi terrorists, he said; pro-Israel terrorists and anti-Israel ones. In other words, it doesn't matter what we think of Hamas' ultimate goals. All that is important, he argued, is that they employ indiscriminate violence. Until they stop, they should be labeled as terrorists and treated as international pariahs.

from an NPR summary following the Hamas election victories...

Hey Fanta, I'm Swiss...we're neutral and the Geneva convention is in ...well, Geneva...
I say Hamas are terrorists. There ya have it. end of story.

But you also have to say the Israelis are terrorists too ... to be totally neutral

That's what I said from the get-go! If Hamas is terrorist then Israel must be considered terrorist as well.

TERRORISTS...

Israel a terrorist nation too .
It was founded on terror .

Double Post .

Israel is funded by the two biggest criminal terror organisations there are ... the US & the UK

Both Bush and Blair should be brought to war criminal courts and sat next to Karadzic and Mugabe.

Then the lot of them should have to share a cell in Afghanistan ...

“ Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.[16] ”

Hamas is a terrorist group and Israel full of them but reading above made me thing that what we are doing in Iraq can be counted to this. Just a thought so don't persecute me.

Odd you should use this deffinition.

Yitzhak Shamir,

"There are those who say that to kill Martin (a British sergeant) is terrorism, but to attack an army camp is guerrilla warfare and to bomb civilians is professional warfare. But I think it is the same from the moral point of view. Is it better to drop an atomic bomb on a city than to kill a handful of persons? I don’t think so. But nobody says that President Truman was a terrorist. All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us.

So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets. In any case, it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. For us it was not a question of the professional honor of a soldier, it was the question of an idea, an aim that had to be achieved. We were aiming at a political goal. There are many examples of what we did to be found in the Bible — Gideon and Samson, for instance. This had an influence on our thinking. And we also learned from the history of other peoples who fought for their freedom — the Russian and Irish revolutionaries, Garibaldi and Tito."

Bethell Nicholas , The Palestine Triangle: The Struggle between British, Jews, and the Arabs, 1935–48 (1979), page 278

Following the 1947 UN Partition Plan, on 20 May 1948, Folke Bernadotte was appointed the United Nations' mediator in Palestine, the first official mediator in the UN's history. In this capacity, he succeeded in achieving a truce in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and laid the groundwork for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte#Assassinated_in_Jerusalem_by_Lehi

Bernadotte was assassinated on 17 September 1948 by members of Lehi, a Zionist militant group sometimes known as the Stern Gang. The assassination was approved by the three-man Lehi 'center': YITZAK SHAMIR (evidentual Isreali PM), Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yisrael Eldad, and planned by the Lehi operations chief in Jerusalem, Yehoshua Zetler.


Lehi took responsibility for the killings in the name of Hazit Hamoledet (The National Front), a name they copied from a war-time Bulgarian resistance group. The group regarded Bernadotte as a stooge of the British and their Arab allies, and therefore as a serious threat to the emerging state of Israel. Most immediately, a truce was currently in force and Lehi feared that the Israeli leadership would agree to Bernadotte's peace proposals, which they considered disastrous.