Spider,

you wrote earlier on this thread,



... and you are not alone sir.

Most debaters on these forums, afford other posters the credit of not intentionally writing lies with the intent of misleading or deceiving others. Writing that YOU don't allow lies personnally is redundant and pleonastic.

Regardless of your uninspired missin, everyone on these forums, is still allowed his/her opinion in good faith, whether or not it is perceived by you, from your own most subjective filter, as a 'lie' (according to YOU, doesn't make it A LIE).



And speaking of lies, or said more appropriately,
'... words which are the unfortunate result of an uninspired and unfounded thought process',
the above quote surely requires some re-engineering.

The only interpretation of the above statement that would be accurate, is in fact, that it NEED NOT EVEN BE A MATTER OF OPINION to state that christianity,
... through its sacred and inerrant document called the bible, which believers also refer to as the word of god herself,
teaches aggressive (rather light qualifyer) violence.

IT IS A MATTER OF FACT.

No need for sophistic interpretations which once appropriately convoluted, would spin what is written into what is not written.
Creative interpretors need not apply. The facts, the words of THE BOOK are clear enough.

THEY TEACH, SPEAK OF, and PROMOTE VIOLENCE THAT WOULD BE A STRETCH FOR THE MOST PROLIFIC HORROR AND VIOLENCE SCRIPTORS.

That anyone would eventually succeeds, after incredible time and effort, to twist those violence dripping words into an interpretation that vindicates their rose colored perspective, doesn't alter the raw material of facts and evidence of the words written.

Can't have an opinion about christianity teaching violence?!?!?

Now there's one unfounded and most inaccurate group of words.

Welcome back. Everyone is, of course, entitled to post whatever he/she desires to post. I was speaking of rational and fair conversations. If one seeks to have a rational and fair conversation with another, one should not assume opinions about objective matters. Opinions only apply to subjective matters, not objective matters.

Does the Bible have descriptions of violent events? Yes.

Does the Bible depict God commanding his followers to violence? Yes.

Should Christians enforce the laws of the Old Testament? No, they were specifically given to the nation of Israel. Christians should follow the majority of the laws (Christians are exempt from the the dietary and Sabbath laws), but the Laws should not be enforce on others.

Did Jesus or the apostles command Christians to commit violent acts? No, Jesus expressly forbid aggressive violence.

Did Jesus or the apostles commit violent acts? Yes, in two cases. One was then Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple and the other was when an apostle stuck the ear off of a Roman soldier. In the first case, Jesus had the right to kick out intruders as the only begotten son of God, that right isn't conferred onto any Christian. In the second case, Jesus reprimanded the apostle and healed the soldier.

How committed to non-violence were Jesus and the apostles? Completely. Jesus and 11 of the 12 apostles were carried off to their death without a fight. John the Apostle survive his execution, which was being boiled in tar, recovered and lived to a ripe old age.

The only way an educated (in the Bible) person can claim that Christians are called to violence is by actively ignoring the New Testament and distorting the Old. Perhaps I was wrong in saying he was lying, maybe he just didn't understand the Bible in it's full context, if I called him a liar wrongly then I profusely apologize. But I stand by the fact that REGARDLESS of if the invasion of Canaan, Elisha and the bears, the killing of the priests of Ba'al, etc is justified in ones mind, Christianity does not call it's follower to such violence, it is actually strictly prohibited.

I refuse the "living document" idea of the Bible, I reject that doctrine completely. I reject as scripture all books not included in the Bible (I would accept a newly discovered book that didn't contradict existing books). That's what makes me perfectly safe to be around. The interpretation of the Bible doesn't change in my mind. I can't excuse bad behavior, because a Gnostic Gospel says it's okay or because I am interpreting the Bible with the times. I wouldn't bomb abortion clinics. I wouldn't kill in Jesus' name. I wouldn't force other's to convert. I wouldn't punch someone who insulted me or my family. I wouldn't subjugate non-Christians. All of those actions are against the doctrine taught in the BIble. But I would protect anyone who needed protection, including an enemy (I still don't have one of those, but many people have applied for the job). What you guys need to worry about are people who feel that the Bible is a living document that changes with the times, people who find ways to excuse murder of abortion doctors or hating people of another color or hating homosexuals. There are Christians like that and I hope they scare you, because they scare the hell out of me.

Spider wrote and I quote.......

"....But I would protect anyone who needed protection, including an enemy (I still don't have one of those, but many people have applied for the job). What you guys need to worry about are people who feel that the Bible is a living document that changes with the times, people who find ways to excuse murder of abortion doctors or hating people of another color or hating homosexuals. There are Christians like that and I hope they scare you, because they scare the hell out of me...."

There is a Big difference between Christianty and Religiousity .

Christianity produces fruit.

Religiousity produces hate.

... except if you believe the trinity is a falsehood or jesus was nothing more than a man, in which case it then becomes a issue.

Belushi... some people in muslim countries for instance, may misunderstand the trinity to mean 3 gods ,instead of 3 persons in ONE God.

In The Gospel of John it says.....

" In the beginning WAS the WORD

and the Word WAS WITH God

and the Word WAS God .

He( the Word is Jesus) was in the beginning WITH God. All things were MADE THROUGH him, and WITHOUT him was not ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

In him was LIFE

and the life was the LIGHT of men.

The light shines in the darkness

and the darkness has not overcome it.

There was a man sent from God

whose name was John.

He came as a witness

to bear witness about the light

that all might believe through him.

He was not the light

but came to bear witness about the light.

The true light

which enlightens everyone

was coming into the world.

He was in the world

and the world was made through him

yet the world did not know him.

He came to his own

and his own people did not receive him.

But to all who did receive him

who believed in his name

he gave the right to become children of God

who were born

NOT of blood

NOR of the will of the flesh

NOR of the will of man

BUT OF GOD. "

~~~~~~~~

The Book of John clearly shows that Jesus( the WORD) , was from the very BEGINNING of Time....the Word (Jesus) was WITH God....and the Word(Jesus)WAS God.

And also in Genesis , it mentions the Holy Spirit which breathed over the waters....


Here is another way to understand the three in one:

Belushi.... you have a physical body, a soul, and a spirit.

You are 3 in one...a triune being

But still just ONE Belushi....

Very good Morningsong

"MorningSong" the term the "Word" was more a representation of Truth or Absolute Knowledge that could only have pre-existed before God not that it was Jesus ..especially since the Old Testament makes no mention of Jesus or any Holy Trinity

The OT mentions Jesus many times, just not by the name Jesus.

There was Malech Yahweh, for instance. An angel who was alternately called "angel" and "The Lord", which allowed and even commanded people to worship him.

There is Isaiah 44:6

Isaiah 44:6


Both uses of the word "LORD" is Yahweh (God). This verse is describing God (Yahweh) and the Messiah (redeemer and Yahweh of Hosts) as speaking with one voice. Two beings speaking with a single voice.

Even in the Old Testament, heaven was described as having two thrones.

There is a whole field of theological study dedicated to studying Jesus called Chirstology. A great deal of the material pertains to pre-incarnate Christ.

Where did the Trinity come from? The Bible?

The word Trinity doesn't even appear in the Bible.

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "pious fraud", and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of
divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God.

This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely pagan and man-made in origin.

Where did Trinity come from

If its not in the Bible, where did it come from?

It was first formulated by Athanasius, a bishop of Alexandria 325 ac. He even confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be save must thus think of the Trinity...

Islam accuses Christians with promoting a mere human being - Jesus, viewed simply as a prophet - to the status of deity.

However, the Christian position is actually the opposite to some degree:

There are major difficulties for Muslims with regard to their understanding of the Trinity.

The Qur'an attacks belief in a Trinity comprising three gods, and declares that the Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus.

The object of the Islamic polemic in this respect does not reflect the Biblical and historic Christian concept of the Trinity as being three hypostases sharing the same essence.

What Islam attacks is Tritheism, something which Biblical Christians have never advocated.

Devotion to Mary was certainly an increasing feature of the time in which Muhammad began his mission, and intercessory powers were attributed to her, in contradiction to the Holy Scriptures.

In later ages this elevation became more extravagant, and the Protestant Reformation was a return to the Biblical position on this. However, the onus is on Muslims to prove that any Christian group ever explicitly declared her to be a deity - which they cannot or will not.

the point is the bible makes no mention of a Holy Trinty or Jesus being part of any such Trinity ...the bible if anything can be interpeted that maybe God is two seperate entites but not three or a Trinty

It is amazing to me that since Christians believe that Jesus is god, and the Bible states that "The word was god.." that they conclude that the word is Jesus. Well that does make sense, right?

But in my opinion, on the quantum level....

"The word" is a sound and a vibration. It is a wave. A sound wave, and energy wave. All of this holographic matrix is made up (on the quantum level) of ~is waves.

Jesus is the personality of an individual embodied observer and an ideal of that which is "god" made flesh.

We are all "god" in this respect and we are all "the word."
We are all observers made flesh by the word in this holographic matrix.

"The word" is the vibration.

JB

Isaiah 44:6 clearly shows that God is at least two entities which speak with a single voice. God and Jesus was joined through the Holy Spirit, thus a trinity.

Is that like self-gratification on the spin cycle of the washing machine for girls?

No, its closer to the vibration of a dill-doe and what it can do for a girl... LOL

Of course god is AT LEAST two entities.

God is all entities.

God is all.

JB

Would Madam like that recharged for her, or shall I just start the generator?



I hear a tune from the Beach Boys heading in too!!

vibrations? ..oh oh I see string theory and my pal "Chazster"
popping up from the abyss ...but Quantum Physics could be considered as being the absolute truth that supply the laws in a universe or dimension compose of the substance known as energy ...vibration or sound could be "The Word"

No recharging necessary, THE WORD is an infinite orgasmic wave of bliss.

I would not say it if it were not so.

I am the High Priestess of the First Universal Life Church of Brutal Truth and Honesty.

JB

Well, while I am down here on my knees, could I do the High Priestess of the First Universal Life Church of Brutal Truth and Honesty a favour?