Often 'God' is claimed to be a perfect entity, especially considering the 'God' of Abraham.

I wonder of the nature of perfect then, specifically concerning the world at hand.

It is obviously not perfect...

perfection.

obviously we are not capable of judging perfection.
that's why we have God. One God.

As you know, it is my understanding and well thought out opinion that the concept of 'God' becoming aware of itself through it's own physical manifestation is a logical impossibility which is truly a mis-labeled form of atheism.

A 'God' without consciousness can only be the potential to become without intent, reason, nor purpose.

As you know, it is my understanding and well thought out opinion that the concept of 'God' becoming aware of itself through it's own physical manifestation is a logical impossibility.

I hold that your logic is flawed, and is not the same logic that our universe is actually based on. We clearly do not understand the true logic of the universe in which we live. If it can even be called logic.

Until you have a logical explanation for the quantum behavior of the universe, then your very use of the term logic is illogical.

You're better off switching over to ideas of consistency and asking what is consistent with what we already believe we know.

I think if you do that, you will quickly realize that Pantheism is the most consistent philosophy we have to date. It is the most consistent with everything that we believe we know at this point in time. Obviously that may change. But until it does, Pantheism reigns supreme as being the most consistent philosophy yet.

This is an interesting topic and it's related to entropy.

We have entropy backwards. Or at least science does.

They actually have the Low and High right. But they have the order/disorder wrong.

Low entropy is said to be highly ordered.
High entropy is said to be highly disordered.

But it's actually backwards. And this is because of how humans think. Well, not all humans. I noticed they had it backwards right off the bat.

Life is considered to be a highly ordered state (low entropy)

Chaos is considered to be a highly disordered state (high entropy)

It is said that the natural tendency of a closed system is toward a stated of high entropy (highly disordered).

However to me that's totally backwards from the way it should be.

Lets say we have a room that is fully of air and just enough atoms of the proper kinds to make up a human being.

Now let's say that these atoms are totally random and mixed in with the air.

If you look into the room you won't see anything. That's because all the atoms that will be used to make a human body are 'perfectly' randomly distributed in the air. You wouldn't even be able to tell that they were there. At least not by looking with the naked eye.

To me, that represents PERFECTION. Perfect order. Everything is PERFECTLY RANDOM. That perfect order!!!

Keep in mind that this is what things tend toward. Given this state there is no reason for it to ever change. This is the state that things tends toward. A sate of PERFECTION. Perfect random order.

Now imagine that all the atoms that make up a human body now come together and form the human body. Now when we look in the room see a person standing there.

That is NOT PERFECTION. That is total DISORDER. Things are not perfectly distributed. They are all clumped up standing there as a human body. That's about as disorderly as you can get.

It's true.

We look at things backwards. We think we are more ordered than chaos. But in truth it's just the opposite. Perfect random chaos is more highly ordered than anything else. It's perfection. There is no form at all. That's perfection. Total randomness is perfection.

*****

Think about it.

When there is no form of any kind. When every direction you look appears to be perfectly the same. There are no clumps, no features, nothing but perfect homogeneity. That's perfection.

As soon as you have features, those features are imperfections in what otherwise would be perfectly featureless.

Like a canvass. A pure white canvass is perfect. (assume that it is perfectly featureless) no features. That's perfect.

As soon as you start painting on the canvass it has features. That's imperfection. It doesn't matter what you paint or how pretty you think it is. It's imperfect for the simple reason that it's not the same everywhere.

~~~~

In the pantheistic view, god is perfect only between incarnation cycles. When god 'rests' god is featureless. There is no physical world being manifest. It's pure bliss. Nothing to rub up against. Nothing to experience. Just a state of pure being with nothing to sense. No features.

Then god awakens and becomes the universe. BOOM! A big bang. There are features everywhere, bumping up against each other and reacting. This is s state of imperfection. Incarnations are necessarily states of imperfections. For every up there must be a down. For every front there must be a back. For ever action there must be a reaction. The imperfect world is born from a perfect God.

The very notion of perfect and imperfect are human notions. One does not arise from the other. There are simply different states of the same thing (God).

During the incarnation cycle, we experience physical life. Many physical lives. An incarnation cycle lasts as long as the entire physical universe lasts. When it's over, God rests again, and become perfect (featureless)

Then another big bang, another incarnation cycle, and so on, forever. For eternity.

If anyone thinks this is boring try living forever under the rule of a jealous fascist Godhead in an eternal heaven - FOREVER.

Either way it's FOREVER.

You bring up an interesting concept that equates perfect to nothing, or should we say everything...

Nothing does not exist.

As you know, it is my understanding and well thought out opinion that the concept of 'God' becoming aware of itself through it's own physical manifestation is a logical impossibility which is truly a mis-labeled form of atheism.

A 'God' without consciousness can only be the potential to become without intent, reason, nor purpose.

What then, is necessary for consciousness?

JB,

Thoughts are a bi-product of a physiological system, as is self-awareness, both of which require the system.

Energy is another matter... pardon the pun! bigsmile

Where is the line between something and nothing?

If one('God') is everything in existence, then it cannot distinguish between itself and itself.

If one cannot distinguish, then one cannot reason.

If one cannot reason, then intelligence is not there.

Therefore, there is no consciousness nor awareness possible when one is everything without experience.

Intelligence requires knowledge.

Knowledge requires experience.

Awareness requires exposure to that which is not of that which is... or has become... aware.

One finger cannot point at itself.

Intelligence requires knowledge.

If one cannot reason, then intelligence is not there.

One finger cannot point at itself.

a perfect god is as unrealistic as finding a good bacon sandwich at jewish wedding.

the two words just dont make sense.

both are non-existant in nature singularly & when u join them it becomes an oxymoron

Perfect God Exists HIGH ABOVE man's LIMITED thinking.
YET He also dwells with those who know Him.

His ways are WAYYYY higher than our ways..his thoughts are WAYYY higher than our thoughts.

Yet some men will dare to say," God He is not perfect"?

And with his limited thinking... even dare to think he knows how God is?

And Who God is?

And say God is imperfect?

Oh foolish man.....

How can the finite measure the infinite?

Who's logic are you using? Man's logic? Our very notion of logic is simply that which makes sense to us via our experience. We already know that the world is illogical. Thus proving that logic as pure thought has no basis.

If you cannot experience, or even imagine, a consciousness outside of the idea of thinking via a human brain in terms of the relationships between things then this is nothing more than your own limitation of imagination and proves nothing logically.

I can imagine being a formless being just like I can imagine pink flying elephants. And to me that's paramount. I see no reason to believe that the mind cannot dream even when it is formless. You may say that such a thing would be logically impossible in a physical world. I agree. But when we speak in terms of the mind of God we aren't talking about something that is physical, we're talking about something that is spiritual.

And this is precisely why it is not merely a mis-labeled form of atheism. Atheists don't believe in immaterial or spiritual existence.

One thing that you seem to be missing about pantheism is that it is indeed a spiritual concept. Pantheism isn't any different from the biblical religions in this sense. Even Pantheism assumes a belief in God.

All you are truly saying with all your logic based entirely on the physical world is that you are ultimately an atheist. You are the one who is refusing to believe in anything beyond what can be physically explained.

I hold that modern science points to evidenced that indicates there is something underneath this world that cannot be explained via our normal perception of physics. (i.e. it's illogical). In fact, no one has yet to date come up with any logical explanation for quantum mechanics. Yet there it is. The observed basis of our universe. Quantum mechanics is basically telling us that what we thought of as logic breaks down at the quantum level. The true nature of our universe is not logical based on what we call logic!

So, yes. Pantheism ultimately is illogical in that sense. But then so is the observed nature of the universe in which we live! All we can really say is that Pantheism is consistent with everything we know thus far. It is not any more illogical than our very universe is illogical.

With that in mind I say that you following words are not impressive,...



This has been said many times before.....but some still choose to "skip over" this part :

" God is SPIRIT...Not LOGIC....and therefore, God Can NEVER be Reached or UNDERSTOOD thru Logic.

EVER.

How can the finite measure the infinite?

If only we could jsut asee this..that a Loving God just loves us so much.

So a loving god? Your words ...

Was it God, or the devil, who killed every man, woman, child and animal on earth because he lost his temper with them?

Was it God, or the devil, who killed 50,000 of his children for merely looking into the ark of the covenant?

Was it God, or the devil, who killed every firstborn child in Egypt for the deed of the Pharoah?

Your god of love is nothing more than a vindictive, spiteful figment of some twisted imaginative 1st century madman.

God IS SPIRIT.
NOT Logic!!

God is Love. Therefore I do know God.

I don't have to jump through the hoops of religious doctrine and dogma to do that.

The story just doesn't wash Morningsong. Its the story, the man made lie that just doesn't wash.

Just because I don't buy into that lie, don't tell me that I don't know "God." You don't know what is in my heart and you don't know my soul and you do not speak for "God."

You don't know.

If you want to kid yourself that you do, that is your choice.

JB