The question you wrote above:

"So, isn't it the gift of giving that you don't believe in?"

Answer: NO

Plain and simple, it is lying I don't believe in. I think the human consciousness has evolved to a point that we can handle the truth. Don't you?

I think we are grownups now. Don't you?

I think we can love each other and be giving all year round without mythical stories about Santa.

I think we are ready for the truth. Don't you?

JB

Its fair game if its a belief yes. Not if you are claiming something is factual or truth. The definition of the words states that proof is needed to be a fact or truth.

Thats your opinion. I personally think that since the legend of Santa is actually taken from Saint Nicholas that it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Not everyone knows about him and that he was real.

If you cannot prove that Santa Clause is real then it is not a fact, but a myth, legend or a lie.

If you cannot prove that Jesus existed and is the son of God, then it is not a fact, but a myth, legend or a lie.

Therefore I can call it a myth, legend or lie without being required to prove it because nobody has proven it to be a fact.

Very simple logic.

JB

Where the myth of Santa Claus came from is not the point of the discussion. It is just a bit of trivia, thank you very much, but it is not the point.

My point is that I don't think people should lie to their children and tell them the Santa Clause myth as if it were real.

I don't care where they dug up the lie in the first place.

I researched this very subject for my niece a few years ago. Here is what I found.

American Origins:

The American version of the Santa Claus figure received its inspiration and its name from the Dutch legend of Sinter Klaas, brought by settlers to New York in the 17th century.

As early as 1773 the name appeared in the American press as "St. A Claus," but it was the popular author Washington Irving who gave Americans their first detailed information about the Dutch version of Saint Nicholas. In his History of New York, published in 1809 under the pseudonym Diedrich Knickerbocker, Irving described the arrival of the saint on horseback (unaccompanied by Black Peter) each Eve of Saint Nicholas.

This Dutch-American Saint Nick achieved his fully Americanized form in 1823 in the poem A Visit From Saint Nicholas more commonly known as The Night Before Christmas by writer Clement Clarke Moore. Moore included such details as the names of the reindeer; Santa Claus's laughs, winks, and nods; and the method by which Saint Nicholas, referred to as an elf, returns up the chimney. (Moore's phrase "lays his finger aside of his nose" was drawn directly from Irving's 1809 description.)



The American image of Santa Claus was further elaborated by illustrator Thomas Nast, who depicted a rotund Santa for Christmas issues of Harper's magazine from the 1860s to the 1880s. Nast added such details as Santa's workshop at the North Pole and Santa's list of the good and bad children of the world. A human-sized version of Santa Claus, rather than the elf of Moore's poem, was depicted in a series of illustrations for Coca-Cola advertisements introduced in 1931. In modern versions of the Santa Claus legend, only his toy-shop workers are elves. Rudolph, the ninth reindeer, with a red and shiny nose, was invented in 1939 by an advertising writer for the Montgomery Ward Company.

In looking for the historical roots of Santa Claus, one must go very deep in the past. One discovers that Santa Claus as we know him is a combination of many different legends and mythical creatures.

The basis for the Christian-era Santa Claus is Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna (Izmir), in what is now Turkey. Nicholas lived in the 4th century A.D. He was very rich, generous, and loving toward children. Often he gave joy to poor children by throwing gifts in through their windows.

The Orthodox Church later raised St. Nicholas, miracle worker, to a position of great esteem. It was in his honor that Russia's oldest church, for example, was built. For its part, the Roman Catholic Church honored Nicholas as one who helped children and the poor. St. Nicholas became the patron saint of children and seafarers. His name day is December 6th.

In the Protestant areas of central and northern Germany, St. Nicholas later became known as der Weinachtsmann. In England he came to be called Father Christmas. St. Nicholas made his way to the United States with Dutch immigrants, and began to be referred to as Santa Claus.

In North American poetry and illustrations, Santa Claus, in his white beard, red jacket and pompom-topped cap, would sally forth on the night before Christmas in his sleigh, pulled by eight reindeer, and climb down chimneys to leave his gifts in stockings children set out on the fireplace's mantelpiece.

Children naturally wanted to know where Santa Claus actually came from. Where did he live when he wasn't delivering presents? Those questions gave rise to the legend that Santa Claus lived at the North Pole, where his Christmas-gift workshop was also located.

In 1925, since grazing reindeer would not be possible at the North Pole, newspapers revealed that Santa Claus in fact lived in Finnish Lapland. "Uncle Markus", Markus Rautio, who compared the popular "Children's hour" on Finnish public radio, revealed the great secret for the first time in 1927: Santa Claus lives on Lapland's Korvatunturi - "Ear Fell"

The fell, which is situated directly on Finland's eastern frontier, somewhat resembles a hare's ears - which are in fact Santa Claus's ears, with which he listens to hear if the world's children are being nice. Santa has the assistance of a busy group of elves, who have quite their own history in Scandinanvian legend.

Over the centuries, customs from different parts of the Northern Hemisphere thus came together and created the whole world's Santa Claus - the ageless, timeless, deathless white-bearded man who gives out gifts on Christmas and always returns to Korvatunturi in Finnish Lapland.

Since the 1950s, Santa has happily sojourned at Napapiiri, near Rovaniemi, at times other than Christmas, to meet children and the young at heart. By 1985 his visits to Napapiiri had become so regular that he established his own Santa Claus Office there. He comes there every day of the year to hear what children want for Christmas and to talk with children who have arrived from around the world. Santa Claus Village is also the location of Santa's main Post Office, which receives children's letters from the four corners of the world.

I never continued the santa lie after about the age of 5. I would try and include truth to be able to come out of it not sounding bad. I always included a present from Santa. I always told them Santa was from a time long long ago and that I was helping keep the memory alive.

Kat

I mean people...kids play pretend all the time.

Santa is a character that symbolizes giving presents and joy on christmas, such as a manger or star symbolizes christs birth. I really think that whether or not santa claus currently exists is a moot point, a tubby guy with magic (come on) but at the same time, the wonderment and joy "santa" brings kids is a part of the developement of the chreative section of a persons psyche and should not be denied due to a persons bad experience. Santa gives kids one of the first lessons on legends and mythology.

Does the toothfairy exist?
Easter bunny?
Aliens?
A leprecaun?
Paul Bunyan
I think that legends, tall tales, and mythology is a part of what has shaped our lives and to deny your children the joy and wonderment of playing with myths and legends is wrong.

I understand it is your opinion and you are intitled to it, I just disagree with it.

If its wrong to teach that santa clause exists then its just as wrong to teach that jesus was born on the 25th of december..the solstice is a pagan holiday stolen by the early catholics to draw pagans to their fledgling religion. jesus was born in september...

selective teaching of "truth and lies"....when will people stop??

Thank you for the in depth information about where the myth of Santa Clause came from.

It gives a good example of how myths in general arise and are expanded to explain the lie to questioning young minds who are probably simply seeking the truth.

Lies are created to cover up previous lies.

Now if you want to pretend, and play make-believe that is fine with me,I have no problem at all with that. as long as you know and they know that it is all pretend.

But that is not what is being done. A lie is being told, plain and simple. Children believe it plain and simple.

Young minds are most influenced (and damaged) between the ages of birth to five. These are crucial years in a human's lifetime. Should we ply these young minds with lies? Personally, I could not do that in good conscience.

I would just not feel right about it.

JB

I see nothing wrong with fairy tales, stories etc. But what is wrong is to pass these things off as being truth to small trusting children who then are disappointed when they discover that they have been fooled and lied to.

Not so much that the myth was not real, but that they were lied to by someone they believed in and trusted. There is where the damage lies.

JB

P.S. Aliens do exist.

You know...I knew santa wasn't real when I was a child. I just knew. My kids did too.

Now, on the other hand my sister told her kids he existed for many years. She couldn't bring herself to tell them she had been lying all that time. I told her that they must truly know? I mean kids in her school surely told them? I think the kids were only trying to make her feel good by going along with it. The shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

Kat

Since you replied to my post....
No, I don't believe in lying, ask my kids, they believe in Santa Claus. As they believe in Jesus Christ and God. And that Jesus died for our sins. Also in the Bible it says, Do not put any other Gods before me. So if you are the High Priestess, than you don't believe in God and you don't believe in Jesus. SO therefore, you are not a believer in anything other than what you have been taught by others. I don't fault you for that.
But if you've ever seen the movie Miracle on 34th Street, the courtroom scene in which the attorney came to Kris Kringles defense, the little girl gave a card to the judge with a dollar bill in it. Cirlcled on the dollar bill was In God We Trust. So the judge concluded, that which we don't see or feel do we not believe in it? We don't see God, but yet we know He exists.

And in response to your questions, I can handle the truth, because I know the truth. Jesus said, I am the truth and the way. This I believe in.

Also, we are giving all year and not just at Christmas time either. We have Mothers Day, Fathers Day, Friendship Day, Grandparents Day, Easter, the list goes on and on. So, yes we are giving and it is the spirit in giving. It is better to give than to receive. That is how Jesus thought, it was better for Him to sacrifice His life for our sins, than to receive anything in return. What He got in return was His death.

And yes, I am a grownup and I know the truth. Do you?

I think a lot of kids do know the truth. For me, I expected to be told the truth. I expected it. I respected and trusted my parents would do that. I respected adults in general would. So out of that respect and trust, I went against my inner judgment and did believe them.

I was very disappointed that they had lied. I did not care about Santa Claus. I lost trust in authority. I was lied to and betrayed.

I think most people forget the trauma of this event because they were so young. I remember my childhood as if it were yesterday. As a child, I had the mind of an adult and the body of a child. I remember my thoughts even before I could speak. Children think in feelings, emotions and pictures before they learn verbal language.

JB

I have more faith in God than you probably, in the pantheists concept. I don't believe in myths.



I have been taught just the same as everyone else. I have been taught the lie. I just don't believe it.




Because I don't believe in the myth taught by religious dogma does not mean I do not believe in God. My concept of God is just different from yours.





I am dedicated to the truth. I do not believe is spreading lies. I seek truth always. I question everything. I am a skeptic. I consider all information. I draw conclusions, that are temporary. I am open to truth always.

I do not believe in myth and legend.

JB

We are Yahweh's children. Do we expect the truth from him? Or is it ok for us to be told a lie and then later on he says that was make believe here is truth? Would that not be confusing? Would this be telling us it is ok to lie as long as who we are lying to is someone who does not know any better?

My daughter believes in Santa, just like I did at her age. It's part of the magical nature of youth. I never got angry with my parents for "lying" to me about Santa. I remember the anticipation fondly, many of my best childhood memories are of waiting for Santa to arrive on Christmas eve. Writing letters to Santa, leaving out milk and cookies, etc. I guess it's hard for me to understand how someone could get so broken up about finding that Santa wasn't real that they would want to tell children that Santa isn't real and hurt them.

Of course, that's not what this thread was about. Christians shouldnt' be offended that Abra and JB call us children? I am so glad that I'm grounded and don't choose to insult the intelligence or maturity of others because they believe differently than I. (Before the strawman fallacies start, please try to understand the difference between arguments and beliefs. Stupid arguments will always draw my ire, if I wanted to attack people for having stupid beliefs I wouldn't have enough time in the day.) What's amazing is that Abra and JB will both agree that we can't know the truth in this life, but they are both so sure that Christians are wrong.

I expect the truth from people. I get lies. People pass on lies that they think are the truth. They themselves are not the liars, they are the spreaders of untruth. They just don't know any better.

They seem a little close minded. They seem to disagree and so therefore we are wrong.

It's a complete double standard. JB believes in alien lizards who are going to eat us, but she finds Christianity too unbelievable. Abra attacks Christians, but he can't kiss JB's butt enough. It's amazing how silly someone will act when they wear blinders of their own design.

I am anything but closed minded. I believe in aliens and gnomes and all manner of paranormal things. I read tarot cards. I am willing to investigate and study and consider anything. That is not closed minded. I've been called gullible, crazy, delusional, stupid, evil and all manner of things for what I claim may be true. I consider all possibilities.

There are a few things I question very strongly. That makes me closed minded? The fact that I even bother to question and consider it means that I have not completely discarded the information set down by the many myths of a messiah who died for the sins of mankind. I am still looking for a connection.

I am still looking to make sense of that information, or a reason for it, or an agenda for it. I am an investigator. I am not a little child who wants to believe in aliens or fairies or myths.

Do I consider anyone wrong? I think we would all like to have the truth. Or am I the only one?

The ones I think are wrong are the ones who purposely lie to someone who seeks truth. I don't think people who believe lies are wrong. I just think they are believing in a lie.


JB