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| Topic: Was Judas Iscariot really a bad guy? | |
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i already know the answer - yours is anything but theological
answer the question |
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God exists outside of our universe and therefore outside of our time. To God, our universe is like an aqarium, he can see inside or stick his hand inside and make changes at will. Since our universe and time are finite and God is infinite, God can observe our entire universe from one end to the other from beginning to end. Therefore, God could know what Judas would do without influencing Judas' actions. it seem's your saying then that he did not have a choice? meaning if god knew he would do it with out any of god's influence, then the act of betrayal was set in stone? If something is or can be pre-determined? - then how can it be by "free" will? The decisions were made by Judas...I thought that was obvious. If someone says "I'm going to go kill my wife", you already know he's going to kill his wife, but he still has freewill, right? It's the same thing here. That was a really weak question to begin with, the answer was obvious. he had the free will then as to do or not do the deed? i disagree - If god know's with omniscient surity that someones actions will be as he see;s them to be and lets the course of those actions take place with the desired results he foreknew would take place then Judas WAS "for-ordained" to act in just that manner - god knew that would be "THE" choice Judas would make, Was it his free will that made the choice? NO - for "free will" to be really free there can be no influences of any kind! No thought or act exist that is not influenced by something or someone- god or otherwise.By being born and put into that environment and time and circumstances - GOD - "used his decision" to further His "own agenda"!! If god want's to "save people" which god thru christ says he want to do - and has the ability to reach his hand into the cosmic fishbowl and arrange things as he see's fit - why would he let anyone - judas/pharoah/others, be put into those circumstances where they would commit the act of betrayal to begin with? You cannot truly have free will if the influences that god would put into your life to get you where your headed eventually, put's you in a position where you really have no choice to do but that which was set in motion from before you existed. that is pre-destination. The only FREE WILL Judas or any one could ever really have - is if god himself were to ask us / judas or anyone else in advance if we would like to be born and live on earth and die, while informing us of what things to expect to happen through out that time we would be there/here - in other word's an "informed offer" to accept or decline before any thing took place.That to me is "FREE WILL" This is a strawman argument. You are arguing that if God arranged things so that Judas would betray Jesus, that would be removing Judas' freewill. I agree. But I never made any such claim, did I? God knew what the outcome would be, so the prophecys were made based on Judas' future actions. If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, then the prophecies would have been different. Maybe Jesus would have been arrested on the street. Or Jesus might have been stoned to death. Or Jesus might have been betrayed by a different apostle. We don't know, do we? What we do know is that Judas betrayed Jesus and Jesus died on the cross. God's prophecies were based on foreknowledge of what would happen in the situation, the situation was not arranged by God. what im stating and have stated is not a strawman - it is fact.we really have no true free will if someone is able to bring us into existance and lead us on a path to do evil. |
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i already know the answer - yours is anything but theological answer the question I answered the question. Rebut my answer or accept it, but I have nothing else to say on the subject if you are simply going to ignore my answer. |
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what im stating and have stated is not a strawman - it is fact.we really have no true free will if someone is able to bring us into existance and lead us on a path to do evil. It is a strawman argument, because you responded to that as if it was what I was saying. I agree! If God led us to evil we wouldn't have free will, but God doesn't do that. |
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then your no theologian
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what im stating and have stated is not a strawman - it is fact.we really have no true free will if someone is able to bring us into existance and lead us on a path to do evil. It is a strawman argument, because you responded to that as if it was what I was saying. I agree! If God led us to evil we wouldn't have free will, but God doesn't do that. god allows evil according to your bible, if he allows evil then he is also capable of using evil to his own advantages. in the case with judas he did just that as in millions of other religo historical incedents. god according to the bible is capable of anything. that includes pre-detination. we dont have in truth nor did judas - free will |
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When asking Yahshua who committed the greatest sin,Herod or Judas. He answered that Judas did. 2 things we see thier are degrees of sin. Sin is done willingly. Judas took the 30 pieces of silver or was going to when he realized Yahshua really was the son of Yahweh.This is when he went and hanged himself. I do not believe Judas ever believed Yahshua was who he said he was. Thus he may of believed he was doing the people a favor by turning him over to the Romans to take to the High Priests. Because that was all the soldiers were thier for. A delivery service. Now barnabas was mentioned. He also was going about the land claiming to be the chosen Messiah. When Yahshua and Barnabas was put up as a token of goodwill from the ceasar reconganizing Passover and the Feast. They had 2 choices 1 Yahshua meaning Yahweh saves or 2 Barnabas meaning Son of the Father. He was killing roman soldiers who this had been what the High Priests had interpreted the scriptures as he would come and take back authority. This is still what the Jews see him comming as a king the same as us. So without going alot futher with this. Judas had freewill or why would he of later hanged himself when he realized who Yahshua really was. He could not of realized he was doing was really wrong. It would be like a undercover cop living among drug dealers and 2 years later turning them in. That is only an example of what Judas could of seen the situation as. He had freewill but being the smartest one of the bunch as he kept the money. Again shows Yahweh takes the lowly and pure at heart to confind the wise. Judas is a lesson about wanting the things of this world over The Heavenly..Blessings...Miles
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Free will is given to us after salvation. Before salvation we have no free will, yes in a sense we do because we can reach down and tie our shoe but we cannot do any good before salvation we will always do wickedness goodness is impossible unless you are saved. So free will is something given after salvation. There cannot be free will if it is impossible to do any good.
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In acts 10.. Did corniliuos do any good before he was saved? Blessings...Miles
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Cornelius was saved at the begining of the chapter. He had already been saved before chapter 10 spoke of him
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He was? why did peter have the vision? Why did peter go to him with the 3 that was sent to corniliuos? Why did Peter make such a bold statement about Cornilious? Shalom....Miles
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He was making a bold statement to all of the gentiles in Cornelius' house. And Peter was sent mostlikely as a learning experiance for Peter because he was calling what God HAD made clean, unclean
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Thu 05/22/08 01:43 PM
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THE HISTORICAL TRUTH:
 Judas Iscariot was trying to force Jesus to become a military leader because he believed he was the Jewish Messiah. When Judas realized he was wrong he committed suicide for betraying his rabbi.
The Jews believe that their Messiah will be a military leader, and Jesus is certainly no military leader.
Judas believed in the Messiah and thought it was his rabbi Jesus. He was trying to force Jesus and his followers into violent confrontation with the authorities. Judas did not intend to get his rabbi tortured and killed He thought Jesus would resist. This is why he killed himself when he realized he was wrong
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"You betray Me with a kiss?"
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"You betray Me with a kiss?" That's a very good point. While what MirrorMirror says seems possible, the fact that Jesus called Judas' actions a betrayal makes it clear to me that Judas wasn't trying to help Jesus assume a military role, he was simply betraying his friend and teacher. |
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"You betray Me with a kiss?" That's a very good point. While what MirrorMirror says seems possible, the fact that Jesus called Judas' actions a betrayal makes it clear to me that Judas wasn't trying to help Jesus assume a military role, he was simply betraying his friend and teacher. Is that the Christian point of view or the Jewish? |
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"You betray Me with a kiss?" That's a very good point. While what MirrorMirror says seems possible, the fact that Jesus called Judas' actions a betrayal makes it clear to me that Judas wasn't trying to help Jesus assume a military role, he was simply betraying his friend and teacher. Is that the Christian point of view or the Jewish? Gods. |
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"You betray Me with a kiss?" That's a very good point. While what MirrorMirror says seems possible, the fact that Jesus called Judas' actions a betrayal makes it clear to me that Judas wasn't trying to help Jesus assume a military role, he was simply betraying his friend and teacher. Is that the Christian point of view or the Jewish? Gods. 
Okay now I know you are not speaking for God or from God's point of view.... Are you? Are you going to start claiming to be the messiah returned? You cannot know God's "point of view." JB |
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Acts 10:1-8
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared Yahweh with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to Elohim always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of Yahweh coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, master?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before Yahweh. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do." 7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa. NKJV I believe Corniliuos was known by Yahweh and was saved before anything happened to him and he showed his obedience when he sent for Peter..You can be saved and not recieved of the Holy Spirit as prescfibed. You should do as you know you should when this knowledge comes upon you. Even the judgement speaks of those who are saved by thier works who never recieved messiah. Acts 10:44-11:1 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify Yahweh. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Yahweh. Then they asked him to stay a few days. NKJV You are right it was to teach Peter that the Gentiles were clean and the sheets coming down with unclean animals was a sign of the 3 men sent who to Peter were unclean and not to call any man unclean. It is not as taught making all animals clean for food I might add. as Acts 11 explains in detail acts 10. But people can die and be saved that has not recieved of the Holy spirit if they have not denied it or even heard of it. This was the point I was Making...Blessings....Miles |
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Gods. Whose? |
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