I like to listen to Charles Stanley. He says "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" asking for donations! He's a hoot.

He said tonight that we sometimes struggle with our guilt, both legitimate guilt over sin and imagined guilt over what we perceive "the rules" to be, whether imposed by what we think our church or group or whatever is wanted, etc.

He said that Jesus has paid for all we have done once and for all on the cross. Satan will tell us we are not forgiven, but we are. We must deal with our sin, move on, and make restitution, if that doesn't make things worse.

He said in dealing with guilt one must remember three things.

1. I am special. I am so special that God sent his only begotten son. I have been predestined to conform to the likeness of Him.

2. I am loved. He forgives us continuously. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He loves us unconditionally.

3. I'm forgiven. He is faithful and just to forgive us. God is just because the price has been paid. He would not be just if he just let us go, but since the price has been paid, justice has been done.

Reject false guilt and harassment. False guilt casuses you pain and God doesn't respect it. Deal with it. It is harassment. Pray to God about it. God wants us to know we have him by our side. He wants you to enjoy life.

Father, I pray the Holy Spirit reveals the truth about Jesus and his love to those who need it, Amen.

He said the one thing that could not be forgiven is rejection of God's son.

I had a huge problem with guilt. Had been wrestling with a lot of issues lately, including issues of guilt. I couldn't believe that God could forgive some of the things I've been through, but according to Doctor Stanley he can and will and I was thankful for what I learned through the program. I hope by sharing this here that I can help someone else.

If not, at least it may've been fun to read.

Later, gators and God Bless you all.

Geo.

I've found that accepting who you are and what you've done, learning from it, then trying to help others are very healthy things to do. Helping others to realize that without quoting 'the company line' will help keep them on the right path.

i love joyce meyers

joel osteen

I don’t think I’ve ever really felt innately guilty about anything. All of my feelings of guilty were artificial feelings that were forced onto me by a judgmental religious society.

They tried to make me feel guilty about things such as sexual desire, which to me is absurd. I can see reasons to feel guilty for sexual desire. For example if you’re in a devoted relationship with one person and you sexually desire another. Or if you have sexual desires that are demented or based on the mere physical abuse or harming of another with no sincere feelings of caring or love associated with that. I can see those being ‘wrong’ and therefore ‘sinful’.

However, in both of those cases it’s not the sex that is the sin but rather it’s the infidelity and/or demented abuse that is the real basis for the sin, the sex just happens to be accompanying a wrongful deed.

In my mind, God could never frown on pure unadulterated loving sensual pleasure.

So for me, most of my feelings of guilt were artificial judgments of overzealous religious fanatics who weren’t intelligent enough to recognize that there is nothing sinful with sincere, loving, and responsible sex.

Moreover, I haven’t even had all that much sex in my life. So most of my unwarranted feelings of guilt associated with sex was actually associated with a desire to love rather than with the actual act. I should have never allowed myself to feel guilt associated with love in the first damn place. That was my folly in listening to religious freaks.

Other than my unwarranted feelings of guilt for wanting to be lovingly imitate with a monogamous partner, I can’t say that I have ever felt guilt for anything beyond that. I’ve never done anything that I would consider to be genuinely bad.

So from my point of view there’s nothing to be forgiven for. The only thing a God concept has ever done for me was instill me with guilt for wanting to honestly love someone. A guilt that I should have never been made to feel in the first place, and certainly don’t feel that I need to repent for now. Especially considering the fact that I merely wanted to love and never actually even experienced it.

I think it’s pretty sad when a religion makes a person feel guilty about love.

I can just see it now. God questioning me on judgment day, “So my son, what do you have to confess to me today?”.

Well Sir Almighty Creator, I had the urge to love a woman.

“Oh dear! You’ll have to go straight to hell for that one my son, that’s inexcusable!”

A lot of truth in your post my friend yashafox.
Some christian denominations terrorize their members with the idea of guilt (maybe that is why some people are so scared and hateful about christianity ).
The real christianity is not like that at all.
We just recognize that is true we have inherent sinful behaviors in us, but we are forgiven so long we recognize who is the one who came to grant us forgiveness.. That is why my Lord came to earth to wash our sins.
Therefore, we have to get moving. We are going to fall again, ofcourse. But then again we just have to keep moving.
And for the other open your eyes and go beyond those who terrorize you in sunday school when you were a child.
You are not going to hell.

Guilt is a result of going against self-agreements. Those agreements are a by-product of one's exposure to another's sense of ought.

How good were the initial teachings?

Guilt changes as agreements change.

What is right...

What is wrong...

What choices can one live with and why?

Live... Learn... Laugh... Love...

Guilt is sort of like a reversed form of pride. I know that there have been times in my life and because of my actions that I have felt remorse but I don't know about guilt because I think guilt is different. Remorse as it relates to how I feel about having wronged someone else--guilt is more internal and I think more destructive. With remorse I feel genuinely compelled to apologize for behaviors I know have hurt others. Once that is done and I've done what I can to make it right, I don't carry it with me.

But guilt in a religious sense I do not feel. I think religion often uses guilt as a method of coercion. I've never understood that. The idea that we are all born guilty just seems a bit too much like a bad horror story. Being "made" in a state of guilt seems like cosmic cruelty in so many ways.

-Drew

This is true. And, or course, if your self-agreement is to appease a God then you place a heavy burden of guilt upon your own shoulders.

Especially if the God you are trying to appease is unreasonable as suggested below,…



Exactly, if the God (or doctrine) you’re trying to appease holds automatically that all men are sinners then you have no choice but to feel guilty whether you’ve done anything wrong or not.

I’ve always felt that this is absurd. We need to ask our creator for forgiveness for having been “created” as sinners?

Duh???

Who’s fault is that????

This is a huge issue for me. I don’t believe any God would be so cruel as to even allow people to think like this much less proclaim it in doctrine that was supposedly inspired by the God. This is one really big reason why I feel the doctrine of this religion is necessarily the bogus creation of men who are trying to put a guilt-trip on the masses. A guilt-trip that no on is exempt from, not even new born babies!

It’s the epitome of mind control. A truly loving God would not be so cruel as to lay such an unwarranted quilt complex on men. To burden them with such unwarranted and unearned guilt would certainly not be a loving act. It flies in the face of a loving God. This is just another of a myriad of contradictions in the overall picture.

And the religion never stops trying to coerce and proselytize people using this burden of unearned guilt. It’s a seriously underhanded proselytizing scheme that can only serve the purpose of men, and certainly serves no good purpose at all for a genuinely loving God.

It’s this kind of underhanded deceitful methods of proselytizing the religion that ticks people off so much. What kind of a God would stoop to such pathetic means of coercion? Only men could come up with something as uncouth as this.

Abra--perfectly stated! I've never understood the way it was supposed to have worked:

1. I am born guilty and with a sinner's mind and heart.
2. I cannot find eternal peace of any kind without God
3. So I'm supposed to fix what's broken with....what is broken.

It seems that I've been "created" in a manner that precludes me from being able to do right but am then asked to do right anyway.

Back when I believed differently than I do today I remember a Pastor telling me that I should think of God as the perfect "father." He insisted that human fathers are great but that because they are human they are limited and imperfect. GREAT, I thought to myself and so I thought about a perfect father and then came to some odd conclusions about "guilt" and forgiveness.

1. My imperfect dad would never, no matter what, punish me for a lifetime (let alone eternity) for failure to please him.

But my perfect father is capable of doing just that.

2. My imperfect dad didn't see me as a sinner when I was born. He saw me as a perfectly newborn.

But my perfect father saw me as a sinner on the day of my birth.

This is really very much on topic because it relates to guilt. I know I've done some crappy stuff in my life, but rest assured that I've never taken any person of any faith and hung them from a cross or taken delight of any kind in anyone of faith that differs from mine being punished.

Just my 02

Drew

People don’t seem to get this, but from a philosophical point of view this is extremely problematic.

They claim that only through Christ can we find salvation for our sinful nature.

But the problem with this is that this means that God is seriously deceitful.

He creates people in a flawed condition and they can only again strength to overcome their flaws by asking him for strength.

Well, duh?

All this means is that the God in this picture creates flawed beings and withholds the strength from them that they need to do well, and will only provide them with that strength when they come crawling to him on their knees begging for forgiveness.

But they fail to see the problem with this picture. Such a God would be nothing more than a sadist. Creating people in a situation where they have no choice but to come begging to him for the elements that HE FAILED to bestow them with in the first damn place.

Again, I ask, who’s fault is that?

It ultimately comes down to the idea that we have no choice but to beg our creator for forgiveness because HE created us as totally incompetent fools!!!

There is no other explanation.

People often use the idea that this is necessary for “free will” but that’s total bull crap. The pantheistic view of God also offers complete free will and there’s no need for any kind of judgments or reprimands in pantheism. Free will does not require that people automatically have a sinful nature. That argument simply doesn’t hold water.

The bottom line is clear. The men who made up this religion made it up this way to use guilt as a method of coercion to obtain followers. The whole religion is impossible to escape. They even claim that if you merely don’t believe it you’ll go to hell. It’s the epitome of a manmade brainwashing scheme and has absolutely no elements of any genuinely loving God in it at all.

It’s a picture of a God that tries to force people to ‘love’ him out of fear, guilt, anxiety attacks, or anything else that will work. Clearly the God doesn’t even give a hoot about love at all, as long as you worship this deity and bow down to its authority that’s all that’s required and fear or guilt will do just fine. Whatever works to get you under the thumb of the church.

This just reeks of men’s underhanded arrogant tactics to control the masses, and doesn’t make any sense at all with respect to the supposedly loving God it's supposed to be about.

And the points you make about the heavenly father being far inferior to a human father are well-taken too. This biblical God is far below human standards of ethics. Even mere mortal men show more compassion than this deity.

I always say, that my creator is hopefully more compassionate than me. And as long as that’s true then I’m in great hands. The biblical picture sure as hell doesn’t reflect a God that's more compassionate than me. Such a God would be far inferior to my ideals of compassion.

What excellent points. I stand by the idea and sincere belief that NO loving father could ever or would ever condemn someone to an eternity of punishment EVEN if that child did not love him. As flawed as I am I don't think there is anyone I'd wish that upon because eternity doesn't have a half-time. And if it did, what then? If I am going to a blissful place for all of eternity because I was afraid of the alternative then I did not get there by anything that looks or feels like love. The typical response to that (and this is so twisted) is that God has "offered" us a gift and that if we choose to reject the gift, we've sealed our own fate.

What?

Let's say Abra, that I offer you a gift. It is a gift I spent a great deal of time crafting and in the process sacrificed a great deal. In fact, I spent years on it. On the day I hand it to you (and for whatever reason) you reject it. So what then? Sure, I'd be disappointed. It might make any conversations very strained and it might lend itself to us not talking, perhaps forever. But I would never argue from a moral standpoint that you should be "punished" for rejecting it.

If a gift is offered and refused and the consequence of that rejection is eternal punishment then it was NEVER a gift to begin with.

It's no more a gift than a man who says to you after putting a gun to your head: "I want all of your money. If you give it to me as a gift, you live. If you don't I will kill you." No one would look at your giving the money over as you having willingly given of yourself. It would not be a gift--it would be pure duress.

I honestly believe that in the hearts of many people their love for God is nothing more than a fear of the alternative. But that is not love. Love does not dictate or intimidate. If it is freely given then you don't eternally punish someone for not accepting it.

That is sadistic and cruel.

-Drew

Jesus said, "I AM the Way ,the Truth and the Light".

Jesus also said, "No Man Comes to the Father but by Me."


But Uh ....Sorry Lord.
Abra doesn't buy that.
Too bad Lord.

Right Abra?

So Abra.....let's take a look at your view then.....since you don't believe in this Jesus ....and what He did for you on that cross .

Abra....
What I understand you to be saying is.....God should be compassionate enough to let you get to heaven....
any old way you choose.

Right ?


In other words....

To heck with what Jesus did on the cross for you.... cause what Jesus did for you doesn't count....

simply because you don't believe in Him anyway.

And if God don't like that......
Well ....
tuff luck then.


And if God don't like YOUR wanting to get to heaven YOUR way.....
well then,
He ain't the loving God He claims to be afterall...right Abra?

Afterall,
IF God is the Loving God He Claims to Be...
well then...
God should let you, Abra ....
choose HOW you get to heaven....
or NOT get to heaven......
any old way you please.....

cause afterall,
you don't believe all that "stuff" about Jesus .

In fact,
to you....
it is
just
One Big Joke.

A Myth.

Right Abra?

So you choose to laugh at ....and mock this Jesus.

Right Abra?


Well Abra... you are Right......

about one thing......






YOU






DO






GET






TO






CHOOSE.......






AND






GOD






WILL






LET






YOU .

Unreal! I'll let Abra address the specific questions you asked as he/she wishes. But what I find most interesting about your response in general is the way in which you felt the need to insert a "right Abra" after every question in a way so mocking in nature as to announce your presence with all the subtlety of a Bull Shark. Why was that needed? The conversation Abra and I were having (and I just reviewed it) was not disrespectful in any way. I know that I never blasted anyone's beliefs nor did I engage in mocking faith in general. It was a debate of ideas of logic and of faith and it was, if nothing else, informational.

In case you were wondering, your disdain of those who question is one of (though certainly not the only) reasons that a great number of people are turned off by dogma/religion/God. Your response to Abra was not based in anything that looked or felt like real compassion or care. It was not an attempt to engage in understanding that there are a number of people (though clearly not people as confident as you) who have legitimate doubts.

My doubts are many and I come from a place of having once belonged to a Christian Church. For years I nodded in agreement and felt cloaked in justified arrogance when week after week I got to hear all about how those who reject the "gift" will spend an eternity apart from God but not apart from suffering. My reward? Well, I alienated most of my family and friends. No one wanted what I had or what God was offering because they could not see the message through the arrogance of the messenger. I was that guy, that guy you hated to see coming down the hall because invariably I'd find a way to make sure you KNEW how washed in the love of God I truly was and how likely you were to be cast apart from anything having to do with eternal love.

One day, I woke up and since then I've asked the questions that a number of people don't want to answer but I've always asked them with respect--always.

A number of people struggle a great deal with faith and being asked to feel guilty for a father sacrificing his son and a lot of those people are sincere in their doubts. Perhaps instead of responding to them in a mocking and irritatingly insulting way you might engage in the discussion. You blew off everything that Abra was discussing and appealed in an unhealthy way to the very subject of this thread---guilt.

I find that beyond tragic.

-Drew

Drew...time is short....



I posted this way, to hopefuly help one really think about this Jesus ...and Who He said He was.



Is not meant as a put down, Drew.
Not at all.

"The Passion of the Christ"

If any haven't yet seen this movie from a couple of years back, please rent a DVD, and see it.
It's a must see.....

And for those who have already seen the movie, it is well worth renting the DVD , and seeing it again.
And again......

Sorry MorningSong but this is total crap.

The only point I was making is that the Bible is a lie. All men are not inherently evil and born sinners.

NO! I should not be able to get into heaven any old way I choose. I should go to heaven NATURALLY simply because I’m NATURALLY a nice person. Why should God send a nice person to me to hell???

Just because YOU don’t like my views????

The point is simple. I wouldn’t send NICE PEOPLE to hell, so why should God????



Jesus did NOTHING for me. Absolutely NOTHING.

If Jesus died on the cross for my sins he paid way too much and is due a rebate.

If everyone were like me there would have been no reason for God to send anyone to earth to die for the sins of man in the first place.

This is the point you are missing MorningSong. You’ve been brainwashed into believing that all men are sinners and in need of repentance. That concept simply isn’t true. It’s total hogwash.

You’re trying to make out like I’m a bad person unworthy of the love of my creator. I don’t buy that for a second. I don’t believe that my creator is that big of a jerk.

You can defend the Bible all you want. As far as I’m concerened that book has absolutely nothing at all to do with the creator of this universe.

Look at what that book has done to YOU!!!

It’s causing YOU to JUDGE me! You are JUDGING my worthiness with respect to God. All because you’ve been brainwashed by some ancient mythology that has laid a GUILT complex on you.

I owe Jesus NOTHING. He did NOTHING for me. That’s impossible because I wouldn’t permit it even if it were true. I reject the offer. I will have no one nailed to a cross for my sake. I don’t give my permission.

If I’ve done something worthy of being nailed to a cross then I’ll take the punishment myself!!!

But like I say, I haven’t done anything that warrants being nailed to a cross. And so any God who would have me nailed to a cross would be far less compassionate than me.

The story doesn’t hold water. And I FLATLY REFUSE to be BURDENED by a guilt complex concerning the sins of OTHER MEN.

Jesus cannot possibly have died for my sins because I refuse to condone it. For me to give my permission would be the same as nailing Jesus to the cross myself, for MY SAKE. First off, I wouldn’t do that even if I had earned the punishishment, and secondly I don’t feel that I have earned any such punishment so why should someone else be punished for crimes I’ve never even committed?

Save your guilt complexes for little children who will fall for your psychological harassment.

I refuse to allow anyone to pay for my sins. I’ll pay for my own sins, which, as far as I’m concerned are completely nonexistent in the first place.

The whole idea that all men are sinners is a lie to being with. That’s just psychological harassment that parents use to psychologically abuse their little children with. It a terrible thing to do.

Christianity is an evil abusive religion that is hell-bent on trying to instill guilt complexes in the most innocent loving people and make them feel unworthy of their very own creator.

How disgusting.

open comment......to whosoever will



and all this guilt seems to be imagined as what?

where the conscience cannot reconcile, God can give perspective.

It is not what it seems to the carnal mind.

Take it or leave it, God still holds the vantage point through which all disengenuity is measured.

If one seeks to find out, then throw out the apprehensions and seek him for Christ' sake.

No pun intended.

throwing off inhibitions ond opinions is the only way to get answered.

Try calling on Jesus from a broken and opened vessel protated as shards on the floor.

Let go and let God answer for Himself.

It is easy to get to the other side, but how easy is never known until one does. At the point of reaching the other side one knows what it took from within. That is a personal observation of oneself for ones own benefit in comprehending the simplicity misapprehended in the wrestling with the connection.

Vague and ambiguous? It sure is.

Precise and accurate in the description of what it takes to make the conversartion with God real and pertinent and fulfilling? yup.

confused and dismayed? yup, ti;l you find it out for yourself, by yourself.

Irritated with me and my perceived arrogance and aloofness?

Probably.

But then, I have been there. Don't excuse me just because you haven't clicked yet.

You will when you want to.

PLAIN AND SIMPLE>

peace, out

Yeah, she did kinda bust up your little "bash God and all those damned Christians" parade didn't she?

Walk with me, if you will, around the vessel of that which stores our truthes.

Around ourselves...

Do you see that which I see, the base, the foundation which was built long ago in each of us?

Who crafted such a thing? Was it you, or those who taught you what you see and why?

Does your belief fit all that you see, or has all that you have seen been molded to fit that which you believe?

Did exposure to contradiction refute or compound what you thought you knew?

Why do you feel the way you do about yourself and what you witness about others?

Do you know their agreements? Are they wrong for being the one who has been taught to perceive and why they do?

Where did your agreements get signed into truth and stored into you.... the vessel... and why?

I am guilty of not knowing anything but that to which I have been exposed and why.

Peace.