No, she showed that the civil debate of ideas and legitimate doubt can't be done around those who are convinced beyond doubt that they have the golden ticket. Nowhere did I bash God or Christians--nowhere did I rip your faith or the faith of anyone else.

-Drew

Drew:

Preaching to the choir, but...

What is perceived as real is real in it's affects.

I actually applaud your efforts to remain civil during a discussion which many will take very personally as a result of their own perception.

You've got mad wisdom CS.......thanks for your thoughts but really more than anything, thanks for your approach.

-Drew

Guilt?? Well....yep...had it...know it....get it. I deal with guilt much, but...it isn't and hasn't anything to do with God, Jesus or any....ANY religion. I felt guilt from a very early age. My people were not religious. Never even spoke of God or religion in my childhood days. Or even in my teen age years.

I was taught guilt by my behavior or lack there-of. Offensive doings, bad mouth, misbehaving. It was my learning that brought about my guilt.

Why do people put guilt and learning all on God??

Kat

Thank you! I don't even normally post here but it is a forum set up for the discussion (not as it sometimes feels, the judgment) of religious views. My doubt in a prescribed set of religious doctrine isn't because I'm too lazy to investigate. As I mentioned in an early post on this thread, I used to be quite involved in a church (replete with, "GOD despises those who are lukewarm") so don't, whatever you do, be lukewarm.

I will remain civil because I don't fear my position. I don't feel the need to blast anyone's faith because I'm not insecure in the practice of my own. I don't fear God because I don't believe that fear and love are in any way compatible. There are so many views and versions of what faith "is." There are those who would seek to kill Christians simply because they are Christian and there are those who would seek to harm Muslims because they cannot distinguish between those who practice faith in a peaceful way and those who do not.

If in the end I were to be sentenced to an eternal damnation because I doubted, because I could not wrap my mind around something (though my heart might be tempted) then I guess that's the way of it.

Religion (the organized variety) has done some unbelievably evil things. Before we understood that violent seizure was sometimes the result of a real medical condition called epilepsy, people were killed as the conventional wisdom of the time made it clear that they were in fact possessed by pure evil--by the devil himself. We know better now. Slavery (which is as evil as any institution ever created) was (and still is) acceptable by Biblical standards--but we know better now. An adulterer was to be stoned, as was a prostitute but again, we know better now.

To be fair, vapid anti-theism has also spilled much blood. The list is known: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler and their acts were abhorrent. Some would say that my position is easy because it puts me on the fence. But that is not how I view it. I don't think of myself as on the fence about anything because I recognize that with a finite mind, limited intelligence, and the belief that asking questions and challenging dogma is both healthy and appropriate I am simply too busy to sit anywhere, lest of all on a fence.

What I don't understand is why. If you know, absolutely know that you are one of the select, one of the people with whom God is eternally proud then why ever, even for a moment, be upset with those who are not? That is one (of the many) reasons I left my church. I was never happy there. No one in my church was ever happy...., much less free.

A God who needs constant adulation, constant praise and constant thanks isn't a confident figure. People who need such things are emotionally suspect, some would go as far as to say, emotionally insecure.

Since I don't know, since I don't have all of the answers and since I believe that the questions are worth asking, I'll continue to ask them. If, in the end, that is something that costs me something eternal then OK. But I'd rather live a life of secure doubt than one of insecure faith.

-Drew

Your response to Abra was not based in anything that looked or felt like real compassion or care.(Note to self: This is expected of Christians only) It was not an attempt to engage in understanding that there are a number of people (though clearly not people as confident as you)(That's compassion and caring..... clearly not sarcastic jabbing) who have legitimate doubts.

My doubts are many and I come from a place of having once belonged to a Christian Church. For years I nodded in agreement and felt cloaked in justified arrogance when week after week I got to hear all about how those who reject the "gift" will spend an eternity apart from God but not apart from suffering. My reward? Well, I alienated most of my family and friends. No one wanted what I had or what God was offering because they could not see the message through the arrogance of the messenger. I was that guy, that guy you hated to see coming down the hall because invariably I'd find a way to make sure you KNEW how washed in the love of God I truly was and how likely you were to be cast apart from anything having to do with eternal love.

Comment: So you have based your current view on the entire Christian faith on an experience with a church you attended? Have you ever tried moderation? If there is one thing I have learned it is this.... becoming a Christian does not wash away how screwed up you were the day before. You have just begun the life-long process of growth. Growth is slow and sporadic. Ironically, satan uses that unquenched desire for instant gratification to convince you that you were a moron for believing as you did.

One day, I woke up

Comment: If you "woke up" as you say, then why are you here in this forum? Are you on a crusade to save the rest of us from Christianity? Are you not quite sure you have the answers that satisfy your questions?
and since then I've asked the questions that a number of people don't want to answer
Comment: Sorry you have had that response. Ask me and I will gladly help you find the answers to your questions if they are answerable.
but I've always asked them with respect--always.

A number of people struggle a great deal with faith and being asked to feel guilty for a father sacrificing his son and a lot of those people are sincere in their doubts. Perhaps instead of responding to them in a mocking and irritatingly insulting way you might engage in the discussion. You blew off everything that Abra was discussing and appealed in an unhealthy way to the very subject of this thread---guilt.

I find that beyond tragic.

-Drew

Re-read Abra's posts. I would describe them as preaching more than discussing. While discussing, I try to see the other person's view as best I can. I can also be irritated when the van with the megaphones on top comes around blaring their hate for any particular group, not just Christians. Me: discuss, learn, moderation.
I'm not ripping you Drew, I am simply trying to understand where you are coming from. I know where abra is coming from and I apologize as my post was geared more in his direction. There are a few here that are here not for sharing, learning, or understanding but to demean, ridicule, and bash Christians and Christianity. I have never been known to turn the other cheek.

Because He is an easy target.

That’s the way I feel about it too. I’ve always had a good sense of morality. No God needed for that. I feel really sorry for anyone who actually needs a religion to teach them right from wrong.

However, it is true that the biblical picture of God is all about sin and salvation. That’s it’s main theme. That’s supposedly what Jesus died on the cross for. Sin and salvation is the FOCUS of the bible if you give any credence to what its authors wrote about.

I have a very difficult time believing in a God that would be so obsessed with sin and salvation to make it the focal point of his message, and without a doubt, if the Crucifixion of Christ is the focal point of the Christian Bible, then so is Sin and Salvation. They go hand-in-hand.

I don’t believe that Sin and Salvation are at center stage of the human drama. What about love? Do people really believe that men are incapable of love on their own?

Hogwash!

That’s been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt not to be the case. There are plenty examples of loving atheists, and loving people of faiths other than Christianity. Therefore it has been proven unequivocally that mankind is quite capable of exhibiting love without any help from any God.

The biblical picture flies in the face of reality with its accusations concerning non-believers. There simply isn’t any truth to it, and that’s a historical fact. Men who are not of that religion have shown ample examples of love all on their own without the biblical God. So the claims of the religion concerning non-believers are necessarily false.

It’s a self-proven false religion.

Comment: So you have based your current view on the entire Christian faith on an experience with a church you attended? Have you ever tried moderation? If there is one thing I have learned it is this.... becoming a Christian does not wash away how screwed up you were the day before. You have just begun the life-long process of growth. Growth is slow and sporadic. Ironically, satan uses that unquenched desire for instant gratification to convince you that you were a moron for believing as you did. -Zapchaser

I was unclear. My church-going experience was not short lived. It's not like I went one Sunday and didn't like it so decided never to go back. For over three years I gave up Sunday and many Wednesdays all in an attempt to curry favor with God. I don't believe that my experience was worthless nor do I feel that anything like satan has made me feel like a moron for believing as I once did. The ideas (except for the immoral "love your enemy") are not bad ones and I do my best to live them as lessons and as guides but not as anything tied to a God-figure. That was when I became free--when I started living according to doing right for the sake of right and not for the sake of staying in good with God.

Comment: If you "woke up" as you say, then why are you here in this forum? Are you on a crusade to save the rest of us from Christianity? Are you not quite sure you have the answers that satisfy your questions?
and since then I've asked the questions that a number of people don't want to answer. -Zapchaser

I am in this forum because I belong to JSH and enjoy the discussion that religion/philosophy brings. If this is a Christian Forum then someone forgot to add that part in the forum title. Odd that you used the word "Crusade" in positing a question to me. I'm on no crusade whatsoever nor do any of my posts ask people to believe in anything they are not comfortable with. My initial response here had to do with a member writing a response to another member and feeling the need to insert a smug "right Abra" after just about every point.

Comment: Sorry you have had that response.flowerforyou Ask me and I will gladly help you find the answers to your questions if they are answerable. wink
but I've always asked them with respect--always. Zapchaser

I will absolutely start a thread (today) with some questions for believers. If you would like to answer them, I'll read your answers with an open mind. If not, I'll not think less of you or more of me for that result.

Re-read Abra's posts. I would describe them as preaching more than discussing. While discussing, I try to see the other person's view as best I can. I can also be irritated when the van with the megaphones on top comes around blaring their hate for any particular group, not just Christians. Me: discuss, learn, moderation. flowerforyou bigsmile
I'm not ripping you Drew, I am simply trying to understand where you are coming from. I know where abra is coming from and I apologize as my post was geared more in his direction. There are a few here that are here not for sharing, learning, or understanding but to demean, ridicule, and bash Christians and Christianity. I have never been known to turn the other cheek. laugh drinker

Your initial response to me was mocking. Since you've asked me to re-read something, I'll ask the same of you. Your response indicating that "she" really did break up our "bash God and all of those damned Christians" parade was not awe inspiring. First, I did not bash anyone last night. Second, there was no parade (as you put it) going on. I was discussing with Abra some issues. He is responsible for his opinions and behavior and I don't know they guy so it's not like we came in here to kick up a Holy war. That all stated, all is good. I'll be putting together a post here today and in so doing please, when reading, consider that I have seen both sides of the highway here. It would be awfully moronic of me to question Christianity if I had never experienced any portion of it. Surely we can agree that being exposed to both sides of an argument is pretty much necessary before deciding that one is right and one is wrong.



Thanks,
Drew

Sorry Drew, that was sarcastic humor which does not come across in the ultra serious religion forum. That is my main issue with this forum! Why is it that most people are so freakin' serious? Moderation guys! Lighten yer load! Have a little fun at your own expense. (speaking to all) Life is too short to be so serious.When a little humor is injected into the discussion do you find that people's shields come down and they are more likely to dance than to draw swords? Humor is good for the soul, assuming one believes they have a soul.

Honestly, humor is everything to me and in that I now understand your intentions, well, like I said, all is well. I just know that sometimes (we've all seen this) people will use humor to disguise insults. Thanks for the clarification.

-Drew

Upon further consideration involving the concept of one's guilt, I have decided to share another perspective.

One's own sense of ought is a self-contained construct which judges one's own thoughts and actions according to prior internal agreements. This is quite a complex notion which encompasses many individual elements, all of which are a by-product of one's individual exposure.

The consideration of a new perspective is contingient upon one's ability to truly understand it. One's understanding involves the recognition of that which is being considered. Recognition is dependant upon prior exposure in some way, shape, or form.

To choose better one must know of better. To know of better one must have been exposed to better. To recognize better one must have the ability to consider better.

Ability is contingient upon the potential for a complete consideration of that which is being proposed, which is determined by our own agreements of why we perceive that which we do.

If there is a pre-conceived value placement prior to true consideration, then that value is not born of consideration. It is born of prior agreement, which may or may not be an accurate assessment.

Something to think about...

How quickly do you place value upon propositions which may contradict what you believe?

Do your prior agreements allow for true consideration of a proposed concept?

Are you righteous in judgement or guilty of it?

Drew... you wrote and I quote....

<<<<<<....No, she showed that the civil debate of ideas and legitimate doubt can't be done around those who are convinced beyond doubt that they have the golden ticket.....>>>>>>>>


Drew....yes..we Christians DO know ..beyond doubt.

Also Drew...Jesus is not about just joining another religion. In fact, God never meant for us to turn Him into a relgion in the first place.
Man did that.

God is about RELATIONSHIP.
NOT Religion.

God is about Restoring Fellowship between Man and God again.
That is why God sent His Son...and thru accepting Jesus, we CAN have restored Fellowship with God once more......like it was before Adam and Eve Sinned.

See..God can't look upon the face of Sin...so God had Jesus take our place....so we could be with Abba Father again.....and all we have to do now...is just receive that free gift of Grace....that Jesus paid for ,on the cross .

Al we have to do is stop figthing it..but receive with simple trusting childlike Faith.... that free gift of grace that
Jesus already paid for in all.

No works..no followng some rules to get to God.....no....We just have to believe ..and recieve that Gift that God gave us... we just need to receive the gift into our hearts.....and THEN God will do the rest...at that moment we do receive Jesus by Faith.

Then ,at that moment we ask Jesus into our hearts?
And MEAN it?
Then
God makes Himself REAL to us ALSO......as GOD'S Spirit bears witness with OUR spirit.....that we KNOW we are truly born again.

And Yes..When we christians are truly born again?

We know ...that we know ...that we know .. that we know ...that we know.... that we know...

that this
Jesus IS Real..and
this Jesus IS Who He Says He is in His Word........cause Jesus , thru His Holy Spirit, also comes to live in our hearts.

Again....God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit ....
..to let us KNOW without a shadow of doubt..that we ARE truly born again.
There is no more quessing...or questioning or wondering ....it all becomes clear to us.

In other words.....There are NO doubts when we truly become born again.
We just know.

And Drew...that is why we tell others..cause we love you all....and want others to know this Beautiful Love of Jesus too.

I mean....

What kind of Christians would we be, Drew......if we selfishly kept this Beautiful Love of Jesus ....all to ourseves........and never told others....
about this Jesus, too?

Ok...




Ok...




That is religion.

MorningSong--

Thanks for the reply. As someone who was once very much a member of Christianity I struggled with a number of issues. What became problematic for me was that when my inquisitive mind got together with my curious nature asked a few too many questions the fall-back stance was always--"Well, Andrew, you just have to have faith." What strikes me as odd about that equation was that at the time, I DID have faith. And still the answers never came.

I could not understand why a loving God felt the need to allow his Son to be tortured and impaled on a cross. I can't imagine a father alive today who would ask this of his son let alone his only son.

I could not understand why a loving God would heal the blind but not cure blindness, feed the hungry but not do away with famine and ask his followers to find abortion abhorrent while not sparing people the pain of miscarriages.

I did not have what it took to be so sure that the Christian Way was the only way. Muslims and many who practice Judaism feel equally strong about their way and while practitioners of Judaism are strictly forbidden from trying to convert non-Jews the same cannot be said of those practicing Islam. How could a God so large, so big, and so loving allow such a tragically small road on which to travel to a blissful afterlife?

I could never understand a God that needed to be praised without end for doing what I can only presume came rather naturally to Him.

I could never understand the math--the equation that made death the penalty for not accepting a "gift."

I could never understand a guide to being a decent father that required the creation of a place like hell. A place where thirst is never quenched but where fire consumes, where torment and anguish are present without pause. One moment spent thinking about such a place is a waste of a moment. One moment spent creating it is simply sadistic.

I could never understand how Adam sinned in the first place. From where did Adam find the ability to do wrong when he had not yet been exposed to the mechanism (tree) that would allow him to do wrong? Furthermore, I could not understand how one mistake (this in light of fully realizing that humans would make thousands) cost so much. People don't hold those types of grudges. God does--we are in fact commanded not to.

I could never understand how slavery (though more "acceptable" in Biblical times) was never condemned in the New Testament as cruel and unusual and the denial of basic freedoms no matter the race/creed of the people or the location of the practice.

"Believe and you will see" is what people are asked to try. But I never got that. You would dismiss that logic entirely if when buying a home or a car or even a TV someone said to you" "Pay, and you will enjoy."

There are more but I'll sign off for now. I did not pull these from an anti-Christian site or anything of the sort. These are my questions, questions that I have asked, questions I asked when I believed, and they are warm-up questions. I've investigated with an open heart and mind the idea of the sacrifice, of the only begotten Son, of the guilt handed me for an act I was not alive to be responsible for.

I don't mock religion. If I were to go to your church tomorrow as a visitor I would dress for the occasion. I would be polite and I would never embarrass someone as a result of their belief. I am not threatened by religion nor am I beholden to its more cynical customs and beliefs. Above all I am not free to do whatever I would like simply because I'm not entranced by a systematic religious belief. I don't mind being held to a higher standard; what I mind is being held to a lower one. I dismiss the notion that someone in my position cannot be gentle, kind, and loving. I am a good friend, a good son, a good brother, and a good uncle. And while entirely capable of being a jerk, am equally capable of apologizing for actions that I know are wrong. But not out of guilt, not out of a fear that in the back of my mind that creates in me a belief that my failure to do so will cast me out of the favor of God.

I am not tragically human nor am I cynically created. I was given a mind capable of compassion and prose, of love and tears of being secure and unsure and of belief in doubt. In that this is the mind God gave me I can hardly think of a valid argument or reason (though Chesterton would disagree) for the result of its exercise being eternal separation from that which made me as I am.

Christianity asks us to believe in absolutes but to do so using less than absolute faith.

That I do not understand.

-Drew

I love Charles Stanley and Joyce Meyers

Very interesting conversation. Stanley and Meyers rock. I highly recommend the pair to all of you. Check 'em out.

I don't know much beyond what I perceive. I perceive certain laws in the Bible and when I break them, the Bible tells me I've sinned and when I sin I feel guilt, separation from God (there's that relationship thing again, which rocks).

To restore my relationship, I depend on the grace and mercy of God. I confess, his mercy applies and things are better, the fellowship is on the way to restoration.

I feel that God gives us each the freedom to believe what we will, but I also feel that he says certain things about our existence which are true, whether we believe them or not.

I think God wants us to love HIm and love our fellow human beings. I feel that's right for me and I feel I'd like you to find out the same for yourself. I invite you to give it a try if you aren't walking that way already.

God Loves You, whether you argue on JSH or not!

GS

No one knows the scope of the Pattern that is drawn.

Faith is trust, it is not "Knowing"

NO ONE KNOWS THE SCOPE OF THE PATTERN THAT IS DRAWN.

NO ONE KNOWS.



There Has Always Been

There has always been a war
raging where we could not see,
and someone is keeping score
in the branches of life's tree.

There has always been a peace
in the silence at the core,
as we wait for the release
of the burdens that we bore.

There has always been a hope
when the last of it seems gone;
and no one knows the scope
of the pattern that is drawn.

And the history of the game
written in the worlds above
will forever be the same;
for there has always been a Love.


JB

(((((((((((((((((((Hugging Drew))))))))))))))))))))))

Drew... God does not mind you asking questions...that you want answers to....in fact, God WANTS you to ask.

And Drew?
God does not even mind you having doubts.....

God just wants you to be REAL with him....that's all.....and to be just Yourself.

See..... He did not create you to be some robot, Drew...where you are forced to believe on Him, whether you like it or not.

No...He wants you to be just you.....and to come to Him freely with any question .

And He won't beat you over the head , just for having some doubts about things ,ya know?

And Drew?

God DOES have an answer to every one of those questions.

So...Keep asking and seeking....it's all ok with God , really..
In fact.....He likes it when you ask.

When you ask....wanting to know.....

God hears....and in time....

He Does make all things clear.

Thanks Drew, I look forward to many discussions with you. I enjoy learning from the views of others who are open minded enough to engage in constructive dialog. Some here are on a self appointed crusade against Christians.... as they have stated and I simply have a closed mind when it comes to hatred.