Insomuch as this appears to be a state's rights issue, CA has spoken. The majority of voters have let it be known how they feel about this issue. That is how the system works--for now. There are a number of people out there who are against Roe v. Wade--but their feelings on the issue don't much matter as it pertains to the law. There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue and there will continue to be debate over whether this is right or wrong. But for now, the voters in CA have had their say. If you don't like how they voted, work to introduce legislation or mount a legal challenge. Coming here and calling people homophobic is as silly as it is unproductive.

-Drew

Winx,

I am not suggesting that he hasn't been though for the record I'm not the best person to ask about his record in that I have not followed him carefully or closely enough to really give reasons why I agree or disagree. But his being a good Senator isn't what the post was about. It was started by a person (though I've no issue with her) that wanted to take a few shots at Palin. They were deserved and I've not defended her abysmal lack of basic knowledge but again, it seems like partisanism (sic) is akin to putting on blinders--making excuses for and on behalf of others who engage in the same behavior.

I lean to the right on a number of issues but I also have voted Democrat over the years as well. I used to participate in other communities (those that were politically driven) and was asked to leave a few Republican communities because I refused to toe the line on some behavior that was unacceptable.

My point is simply that when we ignore the mistakes of those with whom we line up with politically while at the same time bashing those we don't, it takes away any real high ground. I am actually harder on Republicans when they F-up than Democrats in that I want those people who represent my beliefs to behave in a way that makes me not regret aligning myself with them--regardless of party affiliation.

It appears however that there is a double standard. Palin's anti-intellectualism is driven home point by frightening point while Biden is let off the hook with unconvincing platitudes about being someone prone to gaffes and someone who has been a good Senator. Neither of those answers however address the real issue and I think that is a big part of what is wrong with US politics today.

When we defend behavior because of a shared ideology we are putting politics before the content of character.

You, Winx have been pretty good about answering posts and you've never hidden when things aren't going your way so I've got respect for that and for many others here. I'm not trying to be purposefully difficult, just mildly so. :)

-Drew

I really like how when confronted (in my earlier post on this thread) about Joe Biden's complete lack of historical intellect, most here (not all, but most) seem content to simply skip over it without pause, presumably so that they are not late to the "Bash Palin" gathering. No one in a mood to be honest is in disagreement that her grasp of basic geography is indeed frightening. That fact notwithstanding, shouldn't you hold Joe Biden to the very same standard?

-Drew

I don't have to support the policies or politics of a president if I don't agree with the person holding the office. That is the most basic of our freedoms--to think and believe as we so desire. Not once did I make the argument that disagreeing with or even raging against President Bush made a person unpatriotic. In fact one of the greatest freedoms this country allows is for its citizens to BE unpatriotic. That a person is free to rail against GWB, call him Hitler like, or burn an American flag does not make me happy but what makes the moment ironic is that they are allowed to use and exercise the very freedoms that they proclaim to despise. Try burning a flag or railing against the "Dear Leader" in North Korea.

Both parties have drifted so far away from our Constitution that it is almost laughable to hear it mentioned today save for people who claim that the Constitution provides them x freedom and y rights.

I did not support President Elect Obama nor do I believe his policies are best for our nation. That stated, the significance of his nomination and election is not something that is lost on me. I will respect the office and the man (or woman) who is elected in the sense that I recognize that it is the best way to transfer power from one party to the next.

I do hope however to see a day when we recognize that it is the President who should seek our approval (a government for the people and by the people) and not use being so worried about approving of him. That some here are now calling for support of President Elect Obama after having spent the past year or more simply trashing President Bush is a bit more than hypocritical.

Those who are now calling for unity are some of the same people who showed disdain for Senator McCain and Gov. Palin, who attacked them both politically and personally.

I don't want it "both ways" as some here have mentioned in that I think the BOTH of the two main parties are lost in a sea of rhetoric and feel-good emptiness that has little to do with what it will actually take to fix a great deal of what is broken.

Just my .02

Drew

McCain's handlers? I don't know about you but John McCain does not strike me as the type of man who is loathe to speak out or provide direction. The man (as you know) spent more than a few nights in one of the most inhospitable places on earth. I don't know him personally but my suspicion is that having endured that much most likely changed his outlook and his practices.

I do believe that the selection of Gov. Palin played a huge part in his defeat. Like it or not, John McCain is 72 years old. While there was no indication that he was in poor or declining health it is safe to say that the thought of his having a catastrophic health event was on the minds of the people being asked to elect him. That the person he choose to step up was a woman is not at all the issue. That she was a mom and had a special needs child was not the issue. I didn't even think (as some did) that her daughter becoming pregnant was an issue. Kids often do what parents warn them against and so in that way, Sarah Palin was not unlike many parents who wish their kids had made better choices.

Still, her relative inexperience with national politics did have an effect on how people viewed her. There was not a great deal of confidence in her ability to lead should something befall Senator McCain and now, with news that she blew it as it relates to some pretty basic geography, well, that is not at all confidence inspiring.

Not everyone has an I.Q. of 140 and no one expects that a candidate will have a firm grasp on all of the complexities of our Republic. Still, she worried people enough to make them wonder not only about her ability to lead but about Senator McCain's decision making ability in that he went with someone so very unknown on the national scene.

I don't dislike Sarah Palin. I've never met the woman, sat down and had a conversation with her, so I cannot say whether or not I like or dislike her. That stated, her political honeymoon was over VERY quickly and while I believe that the press did go after her in ways they did not go after Senator Biden, her star fell, and fell hard.

-Drew

Oh, I do chuckle over McCain's choice. It was a good move for all of five minutes but now it appears that Gov. Palin was responsible in no small way for his defeat. I don't think the Republican Party could have fielded anyone that would have beaten President Elect Obama but that is not something that can really be argued now.

I don't know that I completely agree with your line of reasoning that Palin's lack of knowledge equates to high level stupidity while Biden's is simply a sign that he is prone to gaffes. I am having trouble believing that Biden gaffed twice regarding the President at the time of the stock market crash of 1929 but what's the difference?

What bothered me a bit more was the free pass he got when it came to the 7-11 comment. That was a terribly stupid and insensitive thing to say not to mention the fact that it did not make much sense.

Still, I cannot and will not disagree with you regarding Sarah Palin's dearth of knowledge. I remember being in the 6th grade and having to memorize every country in ever continent. I actually enjoyed that part of geography and am thankful today (much like I am that I took typing classes back in Jr. High) that I applied myself to geography. She should have known better and had McCain/Palin won, her thinking Africa was a nation as opposed to a continent would have been fodder for the press for a good few weeks.

Still, congratulations on your candidate winning and thanks for the civil reply.

-Drew :)

Your hatred of GWB and everything he stands for is legendary here, Madison and you want to discuss my tunnel vision? I simply pointed out that if the war is truly unjust, and based on lie after lie, after lie, then turning off the funding would be a way to stand up and declare: ENOUGH!!! But that has not happened.

Another poster here suggested that GWB now be tried for war crimes. I responded that if that be the case then every member of Congress (both Republican and Democrat alike) who voted for continued funding of the wars be taken right along with him.

If something is morally wrong (as many Democrats believe the war to be) then isn't there a moral imperative to stop? The hole stops getting deeper when one puts down the shovel.

Still, have a good one.

Drew

I can't help but notice the almost immediate tamping down of expectations a mere day after Senator Obama won the election. For YEARS now we've been hearing about the mess Bush created and now it appears that we're going to get to hear about it for the next four years.

But I'll also enjoy this a little as Republicans were basically told to shut the hell up when they tried to hold Clinton responsible for poor intelligence networking pre-9-11.

President Elect Obama knew full-well what he was getting in to. He campaigned on "hope" and a promise to change Washington. But now I'm getting this strange feeling that there was, all along an unspoken addendum that reads: "Wow, I promised hope and change and I'm the guy but really, this last eight years is worse than I thought so hang tight everyone, it may be a bumpy road."

I don't disagree that the last eight years have been tough. Furthermore, I recognize that there is a lot of hatred here and elsewhere for President Bush. He (GWB) got my vote the first time but not the second. I have not been drinking the Kool-Aid but I also know that every President inherits the former administration. That Barack Obama campaigned on reform and change, that his confidence was both real and palpable is something I think we need to remember.

But if the next four years is all about how things aren't getting done because of GWB's actions then perhaps the wrong man was elected. I say that not out of disrespect but because President Elect Obama has the Executive and both houses of Congress and a badly beaten and unfocused Republican party. He should be able to govern without much opposition. He campaigned on that "hope" and a lot of people are looking to him for that type of leadership.

Finally, though I did not vote for him, I respect him as my President. He will be my President and I accept that he won. I will be around to blog and write about his administration but I try not to take most of the personally. It's politics and there is enough hate and rancor for a lifetime already printed on Blogs and articles, many of which are still very much in circulation.

I wish him well and I will, and I will support my nation and my President, even when I disagree with him. That much is my responsibility and in fact, my honor. But I'll have little tolerance for excuses. There might be no tougher job than that of the Chief Executive but that is why he ran and the change he promised was why he was elected.

-Drew

Madison--are you kidding me? I don't think for one moment that I speak for Black America. Furthermore, I don't feel (like you) that I'm in a position to apologize to them on behalf of someone else. I'll let you handle the apologies to Black America--I've said my peace.

As for Democrats being worried about not going along with the war, give me a break. Many Democrats were not afriad to go on TV and talk to the press about how immoral the war was, how Bush had lied, how it was all going wrong--but then the same Democrats voted to keep funding it. That means one of two things.

1. Either they really do support the war but are afraid to admit as much for fear that it would get them in trouble with their party

or

2. They really don't support the war and are too spineless to stop the funding.

There are soldiers over there getting blown the hell up and Dems simply had to VOTE to reject funding. Wow, your answer for this creates more issues than it solves.

-Drew

Wow, I feel sufficiently chastised. So, when confronted with facts, your response begins with "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH YOU guys...."?

As for why I was not a candidate, it's pretty simple. 1. I have no interest in being a candidate and 2. I would not want to become what one has to become to get people to donate over 600 million dollars.

As far as sitting on the sidelines--no thanks. Many here complained and took to task President Bush over policies and actions (including me at times) so why would you expect different now?

Finally, this is a forum dedicated to politics and current news and events. My point is, I'll post here about politics just like others do. If your response to a legitimate point is going to begin and end with "Blah, Blah" then I think it is going to be a long four years. The statement I made was not mean-spirited nor did it attack Mr. Obama. It was simply a statement of fact. That you don't want to discuss it is fine. That you acted like it lost significance simply because your candidate won is just sad.

-Drew

Why any attention is being paid to Gov. Palin at this point is just beyond me. I did not support her or John McCain in their campaign but that is almost beside the point. The election is over--your candidate won. But since you can't seem to help yourself regarding Gov. Palin, let's take a look at some of the brilliant examples of intellectual prowess the man who did win has provided us over the years.

When speaking with Katie Couric about the role of the White House in our current financial crisis, VP Elect Joe Biden said the following:


"When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed," Biden told Couric. "He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'"

You've almost got it Joe, but Hoover was President when the stock market crashed and no one was watching anything on TV in 1929.

Or.....

On the day of his announcement, Biden observed this about Obama:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”

(To be fair, it was in the context of a Presidential run but wow, imagine if a white guy with an "R" after his name had said something even remotely similar. I assure you, context would not have been a factor as he endured his getting the hell kicked out of him for being so mind-numbingly stupid.)

Finally, and in reference to Delaware, Biden said to a man last summer:

“You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

Gasp!! Again, imagine if McCain or Palin had said something even close to that. Joe does not make it clear why a customer would need the accent in order to purchase 7-11 products but what the hell, he'd dug himself a nice little hole and needed no further assistance.

So, to the original poster--you are right, it is a good thing that Sarah Palin was not a heartbeat away from the "Oval" considering her complete lack of basic geographical knowledge. It is an unforgivable mistake in that they obviously did not do their job during the vetting process. That stated, while you are busy worrying about the woman who won't be Vice President, I'm a little concerned about the man who will.

-Drew

Again, Barack Obama ran a smart, disciplined and nearly flawless campaign. Though I did not support him in his run, it worked out well in that he most assuredly did not need my vote. The country has spoken and so he will be my President.

His election was remarkably historic but in itself that was just one of a few things that struck me. What I really thought interesting was the fact that we can still transfer power in this nation without a bloody coup d’état. This sort of fractures the idea that we were (prior to yesterday) being run by a massively powerful fascist regime. Even a cursory study of fascism makes it beyond clear that fascist states do not allow themselves to be rendered powerless by way of a free election. This is because freedom to choose is anathema to fascism--in every possible way.

All of that stated, Barack Obama raised more than 600 million dollars during his run for the Oval and that means that he has a number of favors to repay. I worry that when some of those favors are called in (as they always are) a number of people (both for and against President Obama) will be disappointed.

He'll be given a honeymoon period and he'll no doubt try to take advantage of that by trying to get through bills that are more risky. Time will tell how crafty and savvy he is once he is sworn in but it would appear that like most elected officials the massive reality and complex nature of Beltway politics is a tough ice to navigate around.

-Drew

I understand the want and need to put the pieces back together again--that is not my issue. What troubled me about the apology was that it singled out "Black America" as though every policy and every practice was done with some nefarious intent specifically aimed at Black America. I reject that notion on many levels but worse still was the fact that one cannot apologize on behalf of someone to one group of people without being divisive. Blame Bush for Katrina, for the war, for global warming--hell, cast him in the role of the second shooter that day in Dallas, TX. But remember while so doing that for the past two years it has been a Democratically controlled House and Senate that has approved the funding for this war. President Bush might have the Constitutional authority to send troops into battle (though declaring war is reserved for Congress) but it was Republican and Democrat alike who have funded it. No funding = no war.

Still, thanks for the reply. I like that we can discuss things and that for the most part this group seems to do so rationally. Easy---I said for the most part. :)

-Drew

Madison,

I don't know that I've ever read a more patronizing and condescending "apology" than the one you wrote above. That you think you need to apologize for the actions of someone you dislike is beyond arrogant. That you think intelligent people of varying ethnicities need you to point out what they are fully capable of figuring out independently is just incredibly scary.

-Drew

You and I probably don't agree on much as it pertains to politics. I did not cast a vote for President Elect Obama (nor for that matter did I for John McCain) but I respect your thoughts a great deal. I said in another post that I can be proud of this nation and how far we've come (culminating in electing our first African American President) without agreeing with his politics. I stand by that and I agree with you that his being elected is a sign that anyone (regardless of color) can attain and achieve in this nation whatever they are driven to pursue.

I'm not naive enough to believe that his being elected means that racism has been overcome once and for all but I think that when you consider where we were even sixty years ago it would be hard to argue that we have not come a very long way.

If Barack Obama's being elected means that you, like him, can achieve whatever you work hard to attain then his having been elected will (in that way) be worth an incredible amount.

Thanks for a respectful nod to Senator McCain. Regardless on where one stands politically there really can be no doubt that he endured a tremendous amount for this nation, that he sacrificed a great deal during one of the ugliest and most controversial wars ever fought.

Again, nice post.

-Drew

I think it speaks highly of our nation that less than a century removed from the horrible stain of institutional racism we have our first African American President. As an American, I'm proud to live in a country where such things are not only possible but in fact a reality.

But the biggest insult I could pay President Elect Obama would be to consider his color a victory in spite of his policies and beliefs. To be fair I have to consider the man's policies and his beliefs as a politician. There is little doubt that I will disagree with much of what he has to say and the direction he envisions for our nation. But that has nothing at all to do with his ethnicity. To suggest that my not voting for him or agreeing with him hints of some form of deep rooted racism is as stupid as it is insulting, both to him and to me.

I like this OP's question and it is one worth consideration but this is about politics and about policy and not about the color or gender of the person in the office. But I'll not pull punches or avoid honest critique because I fear being labeled anymore than I did when Bill Clinton was in office. I've been tough on Republicans as well, and I did not cast a vote for John McCain.

I believe that Barack Obama was elected based on hyperbole and symbolism. That stated, he ran a smart and almost flawless campaign. I wish he had been pressed to answer more of the legitimate issues that were raised and I think some of his answers point to an absurd credulity of some of his supporters. Still, he won. He did what he had to do and he won.

-Drew

Interesting comment considering that President Elect Obama was heavily funded by business.

Among Obama's contributors, 5,845 list "CEO" or "chief executive" in their title, compared with 2,597 of McCain's donors, according to election records compiled by CQ MoneyLine.

Hmmmm, good thing we got the guy who has your best interests at heart.

One Obama myth down--many more to go.

-Drew

By nature, politics is divisive. Why you suddenly expect to witness an end to such division now that Senator Obama has been elected is beyond me. This community has been full of vitriol and hatred for President Bush for a very long time. I didn't agree with most of it (especially the copy and paste variety) but I understood that as long as people were able to print hatred for the president that we still lived in pretty good place compared to many others. But to ask that division now cease because Senator Obama has been elected is a bit laughable. He will be my President and I'll be there every step of the way to question and consider his policies, goals, and beliefs.

-Drew

Agreed. Empty mantras of "change" with a 600 million dollar bank roll does not, by itself, earn respect. I respect the office and the election is clearly an indication of the will of the people. Respect is something different and in that Senator Obama has little by way of a public record we'll see how things go. If I'm wrong, I'll own it but I'll be watching and waiting to see what happens. It's going to be interesting to say the least.

-Drew

You, my friend have been consistent and I believe correct on this for some time now. I don't agree with everything Dr. Paul has said over the years and I think some of his views are a bit off but I see more promise and more real change for the better coming from his views of our Constitution than I do any of the alternatives. Between John McCain and Barak Obama hundreds of millions of dollars have been raised. That means there are (regardless of who is elected) hundreds of millions of favors to be paid. Senator Obama has raised over 600 million dollars in his run for the presidency--600 MILLION dollars. Wow! You cannot raise that kind of money without favors being called in and the sad thing is that it happens with both parties. Idealism is wonderful but it has a price and the reality is, our next President (Senator Obama) is going to owe back a lot of favors.

Dr. Paul made a lot of sense and his views are consistent (for the most part) with what truly hinders our nation. I, like you and more than a few others am proud to have supported him. Hopefully he'll continue the work of holding our elected officials accountable for their actions and decisions.

-Drew