haha Sharia law is a threat there but look whats going on in your backyard.

Like the National Organization for Marriage, advocated the criminalization of homosexuality.

Check on my post on Orson Scott Card.

Mr. Card is a busy boy these days. He is the Mormon leader of the religious right's top anti-gay marriage organization, National Organization for Marriage. You remember that organization right? It is one of the groups that put the financial resources of the Mormon church into producing and airing campaign laws that lied about Prop 8. He advocates some interesting things like criminalization of homosexuality and the over throw of the government.

Gotta say give the history of the Mormons both past and present in regards to marriage this guy has no moral ground to stand on haha

Here are some exerts from an article from The Mormon Times.

By whatever means necessary

Faithful sexual monogamy, persistence until death, male protection and providence for wife and children, female loyalty to children and husband, and parental discretion in child-rearing.

If government is going to meddle in this, it had better be to support marriage in general while providing protection for those caught in truly destructive marriages.

Because when government is the enemy of marriage, then the people who are actually creating successful marriages have no choice but to change governments, by whatever means is made possible or necessary.

Conspiracy theories

And you can guess how long it will now take before any group that speaks against "gay marriage" being identical to marriage will be attacked using the same tools that have been used against anti-abortion groups -- RICO laws, for instance.

Overthrow of the government

Why should married people feel the slightest loyalty to a government or society that are conspiring to encourage reproductive and/or marital dysfunction in their children?

Why should married people tolerate the interference of such a government or society in their family life?

If America becomes a place where our children are taken from us by law and forced to attend schools where they are taught that cohabitation is as good as marriage, that motherhood doesn't require a husband or father, and that homosexuality is as valid a choice as heterosexuality for their future lives, then why in the world should married people continue to accept the authority of such a government?

What these dictator-judges do not seem to understand is that their authority extends only as far as people choose to obey them.

How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.

Biological imperatives trump laws. American government cannot fight against marriage and hope to endure. If the Constitution is defined in such a way as to destroy the privileged position of marriage, it is that insane Constitution, not marriage, that will die.

Is the possibility of Pakistan's nukes falling into the hands of the Taliban real? I think so yes....

But...you know Bolton's boy Shrub screwed the pooch when he diverted troops from Afghanistan to go to Iraq. For him to point fingers now is sort of amusing.

Bolton while undeniably well educated and informed is a friggin' nut job on an epic scale.

Okay...I have to say I really appreciate irony.

So, here it is, a story that's had me giggling all morning.

Justice Scalia doesn't believe in privacy you see...unless it is his privacy you are talking about.

Another hypocrite exposed!

Attention should be paid...

From the ABA Journal.

Privacy Law
Fordham Law Class Collects Personal Info About Scalia; Supreme Ct. Justice Is Steamed

Posted Apr 29, 2009, 01:58 pm CDT
By Martha Neil

Last year, when law professor Joel Reidenberg wanted to show his Fordham University class how readily private information is available on the Internet, he assigned a group project. It was collecting personal information from the Web about himself.

This year, after U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia made public comments that seemingly may have questioned the need for more protection of private information, Reidenberg assigned the same project. Except this time Scalia was the subject, the prof explains to the ABA Journal in a telephone interview.

His class turned in a 15-page dossier that included not only Scalia's home address, home phone number and home value, but his food and movie preferences, his wife's personal e-mail address and photos of his grandchildren, reports Above the Law.

And, as Scalia himself made clear in a statement to Above the Law, he isn't happy about the invasion of his privacy:

"Professor Reidenberg's exercise is an example of perfectly legal, abominably poor judgment. Since he was not teaching a course in judgment, I presume he felt no responsibility to display any," the justice says, among other comments.

A Supreme Court spokeswoman confirmed to the ABA Journal in an e-mail that the Scalia blast to ATL "is accurately attributed to Justice Scalia."

In response, Reidenberg tells the ABA Journal that the information gathered by his class about Scalia was all "publicly available, for free," and wasn't posted on the Internet by the class or otherwise further publicized. He views the dossier-gathering about a public figure as a legitimate classroom exercise intended to spark discussion about privacy law, and says he and the class didn't intend to offend Scalia.

The availability of such information on the Web makes it possible for the government to conduct surveillance that otherwise would be much more difficult or even impossible to pursue through court orders and other official mechanisms, Reidenberg contends. And aggregation of various bits of information also can lead to more troubling use of the compiled information, he says.

"When there are so few privacy protections for secondary use of personal information, that information can be used in many troubling ways," he writes in an e-mail to the ABA Journal. "A class assignment that illustrates this point is not one of them. Indeed, the very fact that Justice Scalia found it objectionable and felt compelled to comment underscores the value and legitimacy of the exercise."

An ABA Journal request for comment from Scalia, routed through the court's media information office, has not been returned.

It's too late....the deed is done...wonder how Perry will spin this in his reelection bid hahahahah

Shoot low Ma....he's ridin' a pony.

Can you say exploitation?

Funny too...'cause the "moral outrage" was predictable.

So, how about rethinking this conversation?

Maybe she wasn't a poor sweet moral girl captured in a "gotcha" moment (which we all know wasn't true) by a radical gay man and victimized by political correctness?

Perhaps instead she was set up to flounder but those who had their own political agenda?

You know...the far right? Those that still think beauty contest are great. (okay, so I still like looking at attractive men and women but I am not going to look to the body for political, intellectual or moral guidance.) Oh...a fair number of gay guys love pageants or so I have been recently told.

You know...those purveyors of the "American Way"...you know...Bibles and all! (Beware...please read scripture before signing on and compare it with the word of man)

Funny too that some of the same posters here who were indignant about her defeat were all about the mom who thought her child wearing a shirt untucked was indecent.

At any rate...back to the question.

What if her backers and handlers knowing she might be asked this sort of question (possible questions were submitted in advance so they weren't surprising) and either failed to ready her of badly preached a philosophy she did not fully understand?

Me? I don't buy either of the extremes.

HAhAH

Gee...I know throwing around alarming verbiage without regard to facts is a regular habit of republicans...but really...

HAHa...damn...Texas...must really have it's stuff in a tight sock...since I am sure there are no other concerns worthy of their time. Debt, secession (smirk), violence at it's borders, illiteracy, pollution...ummm I could go on...but well what are those troubles really?

I guess all those troubles are mostly solved eh? Because the Honorable Seantor for Texas Joe Barton has....

`````````````````````````````````````````

Texas Rep. Joe Barton compares football's BCS to communism

12:23 PM CDT on Friday, May 1, 2009

Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- The coordinator of the Bowl Championship Series told Congress Friday that a switch to a playoff would threaten the existence of celebrated bowl games, but skeptical lawmakers called college football's system of choosing its top team unfair.

Sponsorships and TV revenue that now go to bowl games would instead be spent on playoff games, "meaning that it will be very difficult for any bowl, including the current BCS bowls, which are among the oldest and most established in the game's history, to survive," BCS coordinator John Swofford said at a congressional hearing.

Rep. Joe Barton of Texas, who has introduced legislation that would prevent the NCAA from labeling a game a national championship unless it's the outcome of a playoff system, said that efforts to tinker with the BCS were bound to fail.

"It's like communism," he said at the House Energy and Commerce Committee's commerce, trade and consumer protection subcommittee hearing. "You can't fix it."

Barton, the top Republican on the committee, quipped that the BCS should drop the "C" from its name because it doesn't represent a true championship.

"Call it the 'BS' system," he said to laughter.

Under the BCS, some conferences get automatic bids to participate while others do not. Conferences that get an automatic bid - the ACC, Big East, Big 12, Big Ten, Pac-10 and SEC - get about $18 million each, far more than the non-conference schools. Swofford is also commissioner of the ACC.

"How is this fair?" asked the subcommittee chairman, Democratic Rep. Bobby Rush of Illinois, who has co-sponsored Barton's bill. "How can we justify this system ... are the big guys getting together and shutting out the little guys?"

"I think it is fair, because it represents the marketplace," Swofford responded.

Craig Thompson, commissioner of the Mountain West Commission, which does not get an automatic bid, called the money distribution system "grossly inequitable."

The MWC has proposed a playoff system and hired a Washington firm to lobby Congress for changes to the BCS, which currently features a championship game between the two top teams in the BCS standings, based on two polls and six computer ratings.

The MWC proposes, among others things, scrapping the BCS standings and creating a 12-member committee to pick which teams receive at-large bids, and to select and seed the eight teams chosen for the playoff. The BCS has previously discussed, and dismissed, the idea of using a selection committee.

The four current BCS games - the Sugar, Orange, Rose and Fiesta bowls - would host the four first-round playoff games under the proposal. Thompson has argued that a playoff system would be a boon for those bowls, because they would help determine the national champion.

Gene Bleymaier, athletic director at Boise State University, noted that his school's football team went undefeated several times, yet never got a chance to play for the national championship under the BCS.

"The BCS system not only restricts access but essentially precludes schools from playing in the national championship," he said.

Asked by Rush whether Congress should intervene, Bleymaier responded, "The only way this is going to change is with help from the outside."

The BCS is in its final season of a four-year deal with the Fox network. A new four-year deal with ESPN, worth $125 million per year, begins with the 2011 bowl games. That deal was negotiated using the current BCS format. While ESPN has said it would not stand in the way if the BCS wanted to change, the new deal allows the BCS to put off making major changes until the 2014 season.

The hearing, with the appealing combination of sports and politics, attracted considerable attention on a relatively quiet day on Capitol Hill. The subject also is a boon to lawmakers, who have some constituents still seething because their team was passed over. Last year, Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania made headlines when he questioned the NFL's destruction of tapes in the Spygate case. The league disciplined the New England Patriots for videotaping signals from the New York Jets' sideline during a game.

The BCS has come under attack from several politicians. Last November, as president-elect, Barack Obama told "60 Minutes" he would prefer an eight-team playoff system.

"I don't know any serious fan of college football who has disagreed with me on this," he said. "So I'm going to throw my weight around a little bit."

In the Senate, Utah Republican Orrin Hatch has put the BCS on the agenda for the Judiciary's antitrust subcommittee this year, and Utah's attorney general, Mark Shurtleff, is investigating whether the BCS violates federal antitrust laws.

Fans were furious that Utah was bypassed for the national championship despite going undefeated in the regular season. The title game pitted No. 1 Florida (12-1) against No. 2 Oklahoma (12-1); Florida won 24-14 and claimed the title.

Here is a sporting metaphor...she was handed the ball in the forth quarter and fumbled.

She didn't lose because of her opinion she lost because she was poorly prepared.

There wasn't a "right" (pc answer) to this as much as thre was a right way to answer this question.

For those who decry pc'ness I would suggest that your mother and grandmother might have a passing acquaintance with being polite, diplomatic and inclusive.

She could have expressed her personal values and praised the country she is representing easily.

"While I believe, for myself, that marriage should be defined as a union of a man and a woman I am proud to live in a country where all points of view are recognized"

Easy right?

Oh and before you say I had time to think about it and she didn't...well that is wrong. The contestants knew what sort of questions they would be asked along with the identities and the reputations of those asking the questions. Additionally the questions were selected at random.

But...fear not...someone will scoop up the poor confused conservative girl who has breasts bought by the CA pageant committee. I look forward to future gaffs by the latest poster girl for family values.

Gotta say...this is the best news story I have read in a long time.

Music Music I hear Music Music Over My Head! KingsX

In a world with so much wrong it is good to see what's right.


Modern Pied Piper Cheats Death
CBS Evening News: After Nine Heart Surgeries Washington State Man Spreads Joy Of Music To Kids

(CBS) Every time 70-year-old Andy Mackie draws a breath, it's music to his ears - whether there's a harmonica there or not. As CBS News correspondent Steve Hartman reports, Mackie's just glad to be alive.

Mackie jokes, "I guess they don't need a harmonica player in heaven yet."

Mackie, a Scottish-born retired horse trainer, lives in a camper in northwest Washington state - he lives there, even though technically -- medically -- he should have died long ago.

After his ninth heart surgery, Mackie's doctors had him on 15 different medicines. But the side effects made life miserable. So one day he quit taking all 15 and decided to spend his final days doing something he always wanted to do.

He used the money he would have spent on the prescriptions to give away 300 harmonicas, with lessons included. "I really thought it was the last thing I could ever do," he says.

And when he didn't die the next month, he bought a few hundred more.

Harmonicas in hand, he explains, "I just started going from school to school."

It's now 11 years and 13,000 harmonicas later.

"I'll see a pregnant lady on the sidewalk and I'll give her a harmonica for the baby," he says as an example.

Today there's nary a kid in the county who hasn't gotten a free harmonica from Mackie, or played one of his strum sticks.

To keep the kids interested in music as they get older, Mackie now spends the bulk of his Social Security check making them beginner string instruments. He also buys store-made instruments for kids that show a special interest. He provides free lessons to everyone by getting the older kids to teach the younger kids.

Mackie says, "I tell them music is a gift, you give it away - you give it away and you get to keep it forever."

The end result is something truly unique to his corner of Washington. It seems everywhere you look, everyplace you go, every kid you meet has the same genuine passion for fiddle music.

"I can't explain the joy, Mackie says. "I don't think Bill Gates feels any richer inside than I do. He believes he's still living today because of the kids and the music.

And he doesn't expect any harmonica openings in heaven any time soon.

"I don't think the lord wants me yet, I still got something to do here -- lots more kids out there."

And here is why...she is a friggin' train wreck. I bet some of those pro-family folks are rethinking their oh poor moral Christian girl sympathies.

haha

She is stupid!

Oh...you and I know she has been groomed and coached and this is the best she can do?

So...pi$$ on your moral outrage...here she is in all her pro-family glory!

HA HA...it's a win...

Last night, Miss California, Carrie Prejean, called into Greta Van Susteren's show on Fox and proved that she may not be the best spokesperson against gay marriage, as she knows almost nothing about the issue.

In the clip at left, Prejean stumbles through an interview with Van Susteren, who seems to have made it her mission to profile (and defend) controversial right-wing female beauty queens. Earlier in the day, Prejean gave a press conference on behalf of the National Organization for Marriage and unveiled her new ad for NOW, which will be airing in several states. Currently, the only way to watch online is to head to the organization's website, as gossip blogger Perez Hilton has forced the ad to be removed from YouTube.

Prejean said she was calling in to promote traditional marriage, but when Van Susteren asked her about civil unions she said, as transcribed by U.S. News and World Report:

You know what, Greta? I don't have the answers to everything. I'm not running for political office. I don't have the answers to everything, you know, in the world out there.

But I think that there should be rights for people, you know, especially in California. I think that people that are homosexual should have some rights, you know, hospital rights, and things like that.

Rights for hospitals and things like that - generous! Then, when Van Susteren proceeded to ask Prejean about gay adoption, the beauty queen seemed to think the anchor was trying trick her and scolded:

Greta, I am focusing on marriage right now, not adoption, not civil unions, just traditional marriage, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to promote that.

At the press conference earlier in the day (clip below, via Pandagon) Prejean didn't fare much better. She explained that she is passionate about her cause because "marriage is good" and "unless we bring men and women together children will not have mothers and fathers." Then, during the question and answer segment of her press conference, following a reporter's question as to whether Prejean will be going into politics she laughed and said, "I think that is a silly question." AT this point, we're just relieved that Prejean finds the idea of her starting a political career is as silly as we do.

Video at:http://jezebel.com/5236008/miss-california-opens-mouth-exhales-inanity

Nogames has skillz...

Not mad skillz...

Well...sort of..

When he cannot reply to posts he has a great gift for persistence and redirection.

May day is a great day...pi$$ on all of you who want to make it something evil or political.

Maybe you all would benefit from going outside and living there for abit.

Water board this!

Can't wait for Hannity that big mouthed a$$hat to have a taste.

This holiday was celebrated in my public school until about 1967 when it was ended. Cold war and all...it was a victim of politics and religion.

How I miss those celebrations. We made a May Pole and danced. We mad flower baskets with sprigs of greenery, ribbons and paper flowers to deliver to our families and neighbors and were allowed to spend most of the day playing outside doing sac races, tag, tether ball, dodge ball and all sorts of great things.

It was a perfect way to usher in the spring and celebrate being alive.

Adults...well they celebrate in more mmm adult ways haha

So, try it!

THE ORIGINS AND TRADITIONS OF MAYDAY

By Eugene W. Plawiuk


vine

The international working class holiday; Mayday, originated in pagan Europe. It was a festive holy day celebrating the first spring planting. The ancient Celts and Saxons celebrated May 1st as Beltane or the day of fire. Bel was the Celtic god of the sun.

The Saxons began their May day celebrations on the eve of May, April 30. It was an evening of games and feasting celebrating the end of winter and the return of the sun and fertility of the soil. Torch bearing peasants and villager would wind their way up paths to the top of tall hills or mountain crags and then ignite wooden wheels which they would roll down into the fields

The May eve celebrations were eventually outlawed by the Catholic church, but were still celebrated by peasants until the late 1700's. While good church going folk would shy away from joining in the celebrations, those less afraid of papal authority would don animal masks and various costumes, not unlike our modern Halloween. The revelers, lead by the Goddess of the Hunt; Diana (sometimes played by a pagan-priest in women's clothing) and the Horned God; Herne, would travel up the hill shouting, chanting and singing, while blowing hunting horns. This night became known in Europe as Walpurgisnacht, or night of the witches

The Celtic tradition of Mayday in the British isles continued to be celebrated through-out the middle ages by rural and village folk. Here the traditions were similar with a goddess and god of the hunt.

As European peasants moved away from hunting gathering societies their gods and goddesses changed to reflect a more agrarian society. Thus Diana and Herne came to be seen by medieval villagers as fertility deities of the crops and fields. Diana became the Queen of the May and Herne became Robin Goodfellow (a predecessor of Robin Hood) or the Green Man.

The Queen of the May reflected the life of the fields and Robin reflected the hunting traditions of the woods. The rites of mayday were part and parcel of pagan celebrations of the seasons. Many of these pagan rites were later absorbed by the Christian church in order to win over converts from the 'Old Religion'.

Mayday celebrations in Europe varied according to locality, however they were immensely popular with artisans and villagers until the 19th Century. The Christian church could not eliminate many of the traditional feast and holy days of the Old Religion so they were transformed into Saint days.

During the middle ages the various trade guilds celebrated feast days for the patron saints of their craft. The shoemakers guild honored St. Crispin, the tailors guild celebrated Adam and Eve. As late as the 18th century various trade societies and early craft-unions would enter floats in local parades still depicting Adam and Eve being clothed by the Tailors and St. Crispin blessing the shoemaker.

The two most popular feast days for Medieval craft guilds were the Feast of St. John, or the Summer Solstice and Mayday. Mayday was a raucous and fun time, electing a queen of the May from the eligible young women of the village, to rule the crops until harbest. Our tradition of beauty pagents may have evolved , albeit in a very bastardized form, from the May Queen.

Besides the selection of the May Queen was the raising of the phallic Maypole, around which the young single men and women of the village would dance holding on to the ribbons until they became entwined, with their ( hoped for) new love.

And of course there was Robin Goodfellow, or the Green Man who was the Lord of Misrule for this day. Mayday was a celebration of the common people, and Robin would be the King/Priest/Fool for a day. Priests and Lords were the butt of many jokes, and the Green Man and his supporters; mummers would make jokes and poke fun of the local authorities. This tradition of satire is still conducted today in Newfoundland, with the Christmas Mummery.

The church and state did not take kindly to these celebrations, especially during times of popular rebellion. Mayday and the Maypole were outlawed in the 1600's. Yet the tradition still carried on in many rural areas of England. The trade societies still celebrated Mayday until the 18th Century.

As trade societies evolved from guilds, to friendly societies and eventually into unions, the craft traditions remained strong into the early 19th century. In North America Dominion Day celebrations in Canada and July 4th celebrations in the United States would be celebrated by tradesmen still decorating floats depicting their ancient saints such as St. Crispin.


Our modern celebration of Mayday as a working class holiday evolved from the struggle for the eight hour day in 1886. May 1, 1886 saw national strikes in the United States and Canada for an eight hour day called by the Knights of Labour. In Chicago police attacked striking workers killing six.

The next day at a demonstration in Haymarket Square to protest the police brutality a bomb exploded in the middle of a crowd of police killing eight of them. The police arrested eight anarchist trade unionists claiming they threw the bombs. To this day the subject is still one of controversy. The question remains whether the bomb was thrown by the workers at the police or whether one of the police's own agent provocateurs dropped it in their haste to retreat from charging workers.

In what was to become one of the most infamous show trials in America in the 19th century, but certainly not to be the last of such trials against radical workers, the State of Illinois tried the anarchist workingmen for fighting for their rights as much as being the actual bomb throwers. Whether the anarchist workers were guilty or innocent was irrelevant. They were agitators, fomenting revolution and stirring up the working class, and they had to be taught a lesson.

Albert Parsons, August Spies, George Engle and Adolph Fischer were found guilty and executed by the State of Illinois.

In Paris in 1889 the International Working Men's Association (the First International) declared May 1st an international working class holiday in commemoration of the Haymarket Martyrs. The red flag became the symbol of the blood of working class martyrs in their battle for workers rights.

Mayday, which had been banned for being a holiday of the common people, had been reclaimed once again for the common people.

Humm no comments on this?

haha Even Napoleon had his Waterloo...just ask Wellington and Blucher.

/cue neighing horses

Me too...it went over well.

Actually it was John Lennon and he said it in a silly amused way after arriving in the US and being overwhelmed by the publics reaction. That of course alarmed all the bible thumpers who then made it something it wasn't. Their reaction then...burning records wasn't much different than their reaction to Harry Potter books...burn those too.

You know...kinda like Hitler did?

Anyway...Italy urgently needs you!

Freepers are without a doubt the largest bunch of narrow thinking, fear mongering, idiots assembled in one place on the net.

That bunch there make the posters here look like intellectual giants.

You presence is urgently needed in Italy where Berlusconi has compared himself to Jesus Christ!

Quick, head to Italy with your moral outrage and hypocrisy! Italy needs you haha


Berlusconi says he is world's most popular leader
May 02, 2009
Article from: Reuters

ITALIAN Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who has compared himself to Jesus Christ and Napoleon, boasted today that he was the world's most popular leader.
The conservative premier, in his third term in office, said opinion poll findings in his possession showed his popularity at just over 75 per cent, making him far more popular than US President Barack Obama - or any other head of government.

"The opinion polls I know say that he (Obama) is at 59 per cent. Only (Brazilian President Luiz Inacio) Lula tops 60 per cent - he is at 64 per cent. So mine is a record high," he said in Naples where he attended a May Day concert.

On his way out of the concert hall, the 72-year-old Mr Berlusconi - who has proclaimed himself the Jesus Christ of Italian politics and once said he was second only to Napoleon, except taller - was heckled by protesters who shouted "go away!".

Commentators agree Mr Berlusconi enjoys high popularity ratings despite the economic crisis - the International Monetary Fund expects Italy's economy to contract by 4.4 per cent this year - although perhaps not as high as he claims.

A poll published last month by left-leaning La Repubblica daily said support for Mr Berlusconi stood at 56 per cent and had risen in April for the first time since October thanks to his hands-on response to a deadly earthquake.

Mr Berlusconi, who regularly complains of unfair treatment by the media despite directly or indirectly controlling 90 percent of Italy's television, put his own popularity at 75.1 per cent.

"These are independent surveys, but they are not promptly published," he said.

I am a huge fan of Uncle Cecil's site The Straight Dope. It explores tons of questions from how things work to urban myths. On the boards there I found this water boarding discussion.

I am including the OP and a link to the follow-up posts which I think some might find quite interesting.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

I waterboard!
So much talk of waterboarding, so much controversy. But what is it really? How bad? I wanted to write the definitive thread on waterboarding, settle the issue. Torture, or not?

To determine the answer, I knew I had to try it. I looked at my two small children. Surely, in the interests of science?.....

But alas, my wife had objections.

Perhaps her?

Sadly, she is proficient in Ju Jitsu, and I am unlikely to waterboard her.

That leaves me.


***

Seriously, I determined to give this a try, see how bad it was: Settle the debate authoritatively. Torture, or not?

I figure I would be a good test subject. I am incredibly fit and training for a 100 mile endurance run. The main thing about such an event is ability to tolerate pain. I am good at this. I am trained.

I also have experience with free-diving from my college days. I once held my breath for 4 minutes and two seconds. Once, while training as a lifeguard I swam laps without breathing until I passed out, so that I could know my limits.

To determine whether waterboarding is an acceptable interrogation technique or torture I must research it an then undergo it myself. Once I have done this, Elucidator Diogenes Tomndeb and all the rest of those liberal scum (no offense intended) must accept my now accept my now expert opinion.

So, here's what I would do. First I would google waterboarding to understand the basic concepts than I would try it on myself. First, self inflicted and then, if necessary, inflicted by my wife.(she has no problem torturing me. We've been married almost 15 years.)

These are the results of my research and experience:

The goal of waterboarding is to simulate drowning without the actual drowning or inhalation into the lungs. In order to accomplish this the subject is forced to lie on an inclined plane with his head lower than his lungs and then water is dumped onto his/her face (always keeping the lungs above the "Water line.") This simulates drowning and causes a panic.

There are some advanced techniques that make this more extreme, but that's the basic concept.

Easy enough to duplicate. I have an inclined weight bench and a watering can. No problem. I lie on this and tilt the watercan to pour water on my mouth and nose. Water goes up my nose causing me to gag and choke and splutter, but after a try or two I'm able to suppress my reflex, relax breathe in shallowly and then expel rapidly (shooting out the water) and maintain my composure. This is not too bad. with my diving experience, you would never break me this way. I can't beleive those AL Zarqawi guys were such pussies.

Back to researching the advanced techniques:

The first of these is wet rag in mouth. I try it. Ok, I can handle this too. It makes it a little bit more difficult to maintain control. I didn't realize it, but the first time around I was selectively breathing through either mouth or nose, to help maintain control. The wet rag eliminates the mouth as an option. You have to really concentrate to maintain control, breathing very shallowly on the inhale and not allowing yourself to exhale until you have a good lungfull with which to expel the water in you nose throat and sinuses. Then, you have to inhale slowly but fast enough to pull in a lungful of air before your nose throat and sinuses fill up. Difficult, but doable with some self-control. I can see where this would get very unpleasant if you lost control, but still, not terrible, not torture, per se in my book. It wasn't as bad as my vasectomy or last root canal, and not nearly so bad as the last OP I read by Liberal.


Next up is saran wrap. The idea is that you wrap saran wrap around the mouth in several layers, and poke a hole in the mouth area, and then waterboard away. I didn't reall see how this was an improvement on the rag technique, and so far I would categorize waterboarding as simply unpleasant rather than torture, but I've come this far so I might as well go on.

Now, those of you who know me will know that I am both enamored of my own toughness and prone to hyperbole. The former, I feel that I am justifiably proud of. The latter may be a truth in many cases, but this is the simple fact:

It took me ten minutes to recover my senses once I tried this. I was shuddering in a corner, convinced I narrowly escaped killing myself.

Here's what happened:

The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.

It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying.

I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You know you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.

At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.

I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.

And I understood.

Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.

Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.

Once you are there it's all over.

I didn't allow anybody else to try it on me. Inconceivable. I know I only got the barest taste of what it's about since I was in control, and not restrained and controlling the flow of water.

But there's no chance. No chance at all.

So, is it torture?

I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.

It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.

The Spanish Inquisition knew this. It was one of their favorite methods.

It's torture. No question. Terrible terrible torture. To experience it and understand it and then do it to another human being is to leave the realm of sanity and humanity forever. No question in my mind.


Questions? Doubts?


P.S. Yes, I really did try it.

P.S.S. I understand that I took a shot or two at some other posters, but my hope is that this will be construed as humorous rather than genuinely insulting, and thus acceptable. If any offended parties take genuine issue, my sincere apologies, but I chose targets that I thought would appreciate rather than be offended.