Karizman,

I'm saying we have evolved a certain way based on necessity and survival
of the species. It's been this way since the dawn of mankind from both
the scientific and religeous accounts.

It's interesting you should mention our world leaders as being evil.
There's truth to some of that and certainly all of it from your
perspective. Then again others believe the country of _______(fill in
the blank) to be evil because of what they did or didn't do to be evil.
Doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's all about perception and bias.
Then we go back to survival of the species and we solve our problems.
Of course this is only 1 aspect of a complex thing. Throw in greed,
power, sex, family, religeon, etc.. and it gets worse.

It is true that there will be some who can and do behave rationally and
peacefully but there aren't many. Utopia does not and will not exists
anywhere on this planet with our species. It's simply not in our
nature and not really in the nature of the animal kingdom in general.
Peace loving, unarmed, well intentioned citizens confronted with armed
foes are more commonly known as victims or slaves.

AB,

I think war has had its uses in the past. Consider where we would be
had things turned out differently from WWI/II, the U.S. Civil War or the
Revolutionary War. As horrible as they were, they did lead to better
things. One could argue about the current conflicts throughout the
world but even they serve to remind us of how horrible and how costly in
terms of lost lives, money, etc.. war really is.

It's nice to talk of peace and I would much rather be at peace but the
fact is people of this world do not and will never see eye to eye on a
multitude of issues. History clearly proves that many will use force or
war to achieve their goals or if they feel like they're being attacked.

I hate to be negative but we are by nature hateful creatures more
concerned with our own selfish agendas than the welfare of our fellow
man/woman. We are prone to fight, bicker and belittle as opposed to
compromise and try to understand. If anyone needs any proof of that
just look at some of the comments made to each other on this and other
sites. Throw in language barriers, religeons, etc and we're pretty much
screwed.

Manwich, surely you jest.. Paris is an American treasure that needs to
be buried (in the prison system to do her time like anyone else in her
position). Hot?? I don't think so but to each their own

Good Post Divinci,

At first glance this appeared to be a politically slanted, biased piece
of journalism but after looking into PCR's background a little further,
I can see he has a history of being pretty fair across the political
spectrum.

Some of the things he mentions about recruitment and retention are spot
on but they've been that way (Drug users, Criminal backgorunds) for at
least the last 12 years. Let's hope he's wrong about the "last desperate
plan". We need to attack or NUC another country like we need a hole in
the head.

Oceans, Thanks for the reply. Always nice talking with you.

Today is a Maltese holiday which means no work for us too. Therefore, I
am going to step slowly from the keyboard and enjoy some time on the
beach, away from life's stresses for the day. Take care Jerry

Hey Oceans,

As Promised, I'm back again. I'll try to keep this short but first I
would like to say that contrary to what some may believe, I have never
considered your ethnic background (whatever it is) as a factor in your
posts and I think you're very open minded, even when you're wrong or we
don't agree. (Had to throw that "wrong" comment in) Regarding your
initial post, I just thought it was a bit one sided and wanted to give
an alternative view.

As for the subject matter here goes:

I was really not aware of the differences in authority within the UN. I
thought they were equaly binding (UNSC & UNGA). I learn something
everyday. Even so, what good was UNSC 242 when everyone viewed it
differently and even Palestine rejected it. I don't think we can
reasonably only hold Israel responsible for non compliance when
Palestine had no intention of complying with it either. Almost seems as
though it was written to fail. I look at this too with similar, recent
UNSC resolutions that were ignored and wonder where the teeth are in
anything the UN does or say's.

As far as the independence goes. You mentioned that in the end America
rejected the idea yet wasn't it Harry Truman along with the USSR that
pushed for the Approval of GA-181? I believe it was, so that tells me
we supported it through UNGA approval. Perhaps behind closed doors
other things were going on but we publically supported and pushed for
it.

I agree that not all violence is equal. The Palestinians are out gunned
and out matched. I mentioned earlier that I felt both sides were being
used as puppets and I really believe that's correct. I believe that
both sides are fighting for what the believe is right. Palestine is
fighting for their land and Israel is fighting for its security. If
peace can be reached between the two countries then Israel should vacate
the lands but they wont until that happens. Meanwhile, the real hate
groups (extreemist on both sides) keep stoking the fires.

I'm glad you mentioned the Egyptians. The Army Chief of Staff did make
aggresive statements but he was also rebuked for doing so. At the same
time Foreign Minister Abba Eban tried to obtain from the US a guarantee
that they would reopen the straights of Tiran. At first, President
Johnson promised an international flotilla, and warned Israel not to
attack on its own. However, the US was unable to initiate any
international action, and reversed its position, hinting that Israel
would have to handle the problem itself.

If I understand your statement about international maritime law
correctly, Israel had a right to pass through the territorial waters of
Eqypt & Suadi Arabia (The Straits of Tiran). If I'm correct, this means
Egypt had no right to prevent Israel from using that waterway in the
first place. It seems that if Egypt had violated International Law and
no one else was going to assist them, they had the right to attack.

OK, that was longer than intended. Hope you have agood evening and I do
appreciate the friendly debate. Take care

Oceans,

That was a nice reply to me yesterday and I owe you a response. Just
up to my armpits in work at the moment but I will get back to you.

I trust you didn't see my initial posting as an attack. Just wanted to
show the other side of that story. Anyway, I'll get back to you as soon
as I can. Take care.. Jerry

I don't think I would want to bend over naked in front of anyone. It's
just rude. Seriously, when I was younger it would have bothered me. In
fact the very idea of being near a gay person would make me
uncomfortable. Fortunately, as I have gotten older, I have gotten to
know and became friends with countless gay men and women. I can assure
you that most if not all are not interested in someone that doesn't
share their same lifestyle.

Oceans,

There's some truth in what you said but there are victims and murderers
on both sides of this. And there are two equally valid sides to this
tragedy.

You ask some valid questions but I believe we need to ask ourselves a
lot of questions. Like why did Israel invade in the first place? What
would a normal country do after another country (Egypt) cut off their
shipping lanes and their President was calling for the destruction of
Israel? What would a country do when they had The armies of Egypt,
Jordan, Syria and Lebanon poised on their borders and at the same time
having the PLO Chairman talking about what a privilege it would be for
the PLO to strike the first blow and eliminate the state of Israel"?
Why should they give back land they won in a war? Why is it OK for a UN
Resolution (GA-181) to be accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs
but it's not OK for Israel to disregard UN Resolution 1402? Of course
the same questions can be asked from the other side

This whole situation is so screwed up from back alley politics and BS
that it would be impossible to point a finger at either Israel or
Palestine. I tend to believe both are to blame and both are no more
than pawns in someone's perverse game of chess.

Seems to me he runs the risk of going broke and exposing (pun intended)
most of our elected officials. Could either be all bad??

No one should ever feel obligated to discuss their sexual orientation
with a teammate, coworker, etc... There is absolutely no link to that
and their performance and therefore noone's business.

Zap, No worries, I didn't feel censored. I like the exchange of ideas
but don't have so much time that I can waste it either.

Thanks Zap, I will not comment any further on this thread.

Sorry to disappoint but I grovel to no one. I would have thought these
conspiracy theorists would have gone away by now but everytime someone
disproves their "Theory" they change it. The epic film "Loose Change"
has gone through multiple versions and is as useless as the people who
created it. Remember the gas station camera theory? and all the others
that simply adjusted themselves when they were disproved?

Those people, in that video, are upset because they think Rudy cleaned
up the mess to get rid of evidence of a conspiracy and are simply wrong
and misled by the people who created this lie with nothing more than
financial gain as their motivation. And exactly which bodies were
desacrated by the removal of debris? Seems they recoverd quite a few
from the area but given that several building fell on top of them and
then burned for several days, there wouldn't be too much left to
recover.

To each their own opinion but I would much rather base mine on something
closer related to fact than those opinions tainted by a desire to do
nothing other than make money off the fisfortunes of others.

It's funny the same people that point out the shortcomings of the
current administration and talk about the stupidity of our governement
are the same ones that swear the whole 911 attack was carried out by the
same stupid, inept government.. We can't have it both ways. either
they're stupid or they had the ability to involve thousands of people in
attacking or allowing others to attack the US without anyone ever coming
forward.

Given that, I ask you, which is more likely (Actual attack or
Conspiracy)???

Perhaps one of the poorest examples of exploitation I've seen. These
911 conspiracy theorists have no boundries. I think those people showed
great restraint in no slapping the crap out of that idiot. This is
nothing more than the U.S. Political machine at its worst.

Good Questions Oceans,

There are no really simple answers but I don't think any of the people I
have mentioned had problems with self-confidence or a sense commitment
to principle. At least they shouldn't have had a problem with it given
their positions. To me their behavior was driven by personal gain with
little or no regard to either end of the chain of command.

I don't believe it would be fair for me to compare the behavior of
people under the stresses of direct combat operations with those having
the background and experiances of these Generals. Those involved in the
Phoenix and similar programs were not operating in the normal world like
these Generals. That doesn't excuse their actions or lack of action but
at least they realize their mistakes and the mistakes made were not made
for personal gain.

Gen Powell has always stood up for what he believed in. The same was
true for Swartzkopff (sp) during the 1st gulf war. Had they not, things
would not have turned out as well as they did. There was a push then
just as with this war to move earlier but they did not bend to the
pressure. Gen Powell made a choice and I think he did what he believed
to be in the best interest of the service, his military and the country.
That it how I define Honor.

Finally, I don't think we have to say to people "Risk or face Dishonor"
I think we should be saying if you are incapable of Integrity, Loyality,
Selflessness and lack the ability to grasp the basic principals of
Leadership then it's time to shut up and find another job. You
obviously understand and live those core values. Unfortunately, some
who should and do understand don't act appropriately.

Take care.. Jerry

Hey Oceans, Always nice to hear from you even when we don't see eye to
eye but I don't think that's really the case here.

For starters, Gen Powell is one of if not the most honorable Generals
alive today. He fought and debated for what he believed in. And he did
it until someone asked him to resign. He may have departed his office
but his integrity and honor are more than intact. I was referring to
the Monday morning quarterbacks that say "Yes Sir" for the sake of their
careers and only after departing open their mouths. These are the
people that are screwing the very people they were supposed to be
leading and maybe I should have been a little more clear on the
distinction.

You're correct that we all have to ultimately obey legal orders but at
the same time when we see something that we "know" is going to get
people killed, place them in danger or is flat out illegal and wrong
then we owe it to both sides of the chain to tell the truth and fight
for what we believe is right.

I am faced with many of the same problems. I have numerous times risked
career advancement and taken heat because I pointed out things that were
wrong. I did it because that's part of my job. In contrast, in the
27 years I have been with this company I have never and will never
backdoor the boss but I have seen those that have. These people who
have become disenchanted with the current admin, retire and then
retaliate via a profit making book deal are not honorable or at least
they surely make themselves suspect. There are other venues for such
things.

Anyway, Nice seeing you again Lawry.. Gotta run. Jerry

Hi Red,

There is truth in your words but we men folk or at least I am very
careful to not place women's roles and attributes into stereotypes or
categories lest I be burned at the stake. Even so, the examples you
listed are valid and one could argue and win a debate that women are by
nature better at nurturing and keeping a community together. From my
own experiance of the women in my life, they have kept me more social
than I would normally be.

Having said that, I personally feel the different sexes should and in
most cases do compliment each other. I also believe under no
circumstances should one sex hold dominion over the other and that one
sex is no more qualified than the other to lead this or any other
country.

Anyway, it's nice to have a discussion rather than an arguement. I look
forward to seeing you in the threads.

Sorry Oceans, There is no honor in taking the easy road out. If these
Generals had done the honorable thing they would have taken more
aggressive steps to address these problems while on active duty where
they could have done some good. Whispering in the shadows until one can
retire and then conspiring with a journalist to write a book does not
denote honor it denotes the desire to make a buck.

Those people are made Generals because they are supposed to have the
stones to stand up and tell the truth even when the truth isn't what one
wants to hear and even at the risk of their careers. The only thing
most of these people have shown me is their complete lack of support for
the men and women they are supposed to be leading and the country they
are supposed to be supporting. If their convictions are/were so strong
they would have stuck around and tried to make a difference. Even if
they had been told to retire SO WHAT. They would still get their
retirement pay and would at least have some credibility.

For the sake of arguement, let's assume the assertions about the current
admin are right. Can you imagine what the public would think had the
current administration publically and continually fired its top Generals
that stood up against everything they are currently complaining about
from the civilian sector. I think we would be looking at a completely
different scenario in both the foreign and domestic arenas.

Thanks Fanta. I'll take a look at the link.