You don't have to get sarcastic spider. I am not going to play that game with you. I am telling you what my impressions are from my viewpoint as a non-Christian in a Bible-belt town. Most of my friends, relatives and neighbors are Christians.

No I do not know the hearts or minds or souls of anyone, I only know what I perceive, hear, and feel from my perspective.

You are right, I shouldn't have reacted in that manner. You are speaking from your limited experiances. There are many Christians who do value plurality of ideas.

I’m well aware of that Spider.

What you don’t seem to realize is that my major complaints are with the OT not the NT.

If Christians actually worshiped Jesus and quite fishing around in the OT for excuses to be bigoted I’d have tons of respect for them. Face it Spider, 90% of the religious crap you spew come from the OT not from the new (except when you want to abuse Jesus by using him to support the OT).

If I could separate Jesus from the OT I’d preach Christianity myself. All Christianity has become is Judaism that worships a specific Jew as God.

From my point of view Judaism, Christianity and even Islam, are all the same religion. That is to say that they all arose from the same regional superstitious folklore. The fact that they broke off into different sects and have all warped the original biblical parables for their own agendas doesn’t change thing as far as I’m concerned. All that shows me is that their original dogma was so ambiguous that even they couldn’t agree on it.

And now their trying to suggest that more people should fall into that same trap.

The Old Testament is a testament of God's love and mercy. I find it strange that so many complain about the Old Testament. To each his own, but to suggest that Jesus wasn't preaching from the Old Testament, when his interpretation of the law was much more severe than even what was written. Oh yeah and the fact that Jesus spent every Sabbath in the synagogue preaching from the Tanakh, that's a strong indication that Jesus believed in the Old Testament.

You know, there might be, but I have never met one who "values" non-Christian religious beliefs.

"Ideas," maybe. But "beliefs" and "ideas" are not exactly the same thing.

I would really like to meet just one who actually does "value" another's non-Christian beliefs, and get into a very long discussion with that person.

But the word I hear from people most is "tolerance." They don't like that word and neither do I.

I like the idea of "allowance."

JB

What do you mean by "value"?

Do you value Christian beliefs?

You used the term "value" first. I take it for its meaning.

It is hard to answer the question of whether or not I "value" Christian beliefs myself, because I have seen a lot of different versions of what Christians believe.

(I do not value them for myself personally, but I know that they are valued by Christians.)

There are good Christians and bad Christians and it is hard to tell why they believe the way they do because there are many different paths. But if they are happy people who help others, yes I value them. Our Churches do a lot of good works in our community. I value that. So in that respect, yes I do.

JB

Wow spider.I have never heard you express views about the OT. I like it. It is very much misunderstood. Blessings of Shalom Spider...Miles

will you do me the honor of being my wife

One great thing about the Lord is that he lets us believe whatever we like. One great thing about life is you can believe whatever you want, too.

Although one can argue about "proof" of religion, for me my belief is based on my faith. I can believe whatever I want, but I also believe that no matter what I believe, what God says is true. That is my belief, you know? I won't argue about it. It's just what I believe and other people are welcome to believe that, or not, as they wish.

See, it's like this. The Bible says a Christian is dead to sin. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not. The claim is there and if you believe the bible, the claim is true. So why even bother wish sin? For the most part, you won't if you can help it. When and if you do, that's why there's 1 John 1:9 if we confess our sin, the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us.
(and I paraphrase).

The bible also proclaims that if you ask to be filled with the spirit you will be. If you confess your sin and ask to be filled, you will be. You can ask 20 times a day. It's a technique called Spiritual Breathing. The Spirit is a gentleman and won't come in unless you ask him. Whether you feel it or not is not important, what IS important is that the principles appear in the scripture. You can have a relationship with the Lord and get out of fellowship. Confess and ask and fellowship can be restored. Why be in a dark room, out of fellowship, when you can get it restored.

At any rate, no argument here. Just meant to give y'all statements of faith which can be accepted or rejected as you wish. It's stuff I've heard lately which has been helpful and perhaps it will help you, too, or at least give you cause to think.

Some of this is from the Bible, which I am told is the most joyful and hopeful book going. I would agree with that, but again, no argument here, you may accept or reject the statement as you wish.

JMO and all that.

GS

OK

I value the plurality of ideas. I believe that everyone has the right to make up their own minds about what they believe. Personally, I think there are a great many things that people can talk about. When I'm around other people, I would rather not discuss religion. There is so much else to talk about, why discuss something which is a hotbutton topic?

Basically, while I value your right to believe the way you do, I am really not too interested in what you believe.

Where have you been man? I defend the OT all the time. It's beautiful. The OT and the NT aren't different, I can't stand it when Christians say that they are. How many times did God bless Israel? How many times did the Israelites worship other Gods? How many times did God forgive the Israelites? It was a neverending cycle. If that's not mercy...forgiving someone for commiting the same crime over and over again...I don't know what is. I guess the OT is more difficult to understand, due to it's age, but I put my trust in the Holy Spirit to give me the understanding I need of what I read.

So please explain, because I truly do not understand what you are saying that you "value." You say that you value the "plurality of ideas" but you really are not interested in what I or another person "believes" and you do not always like to discuss religion because it is a hotbutton topic.

Is that correct?

So if you value the "plurality of ideas" then what ideas are you talking about? Non-religious idea? Political ideas? OR are you simply saying that you value the fact that everyone has the right to make up their own minds about what they believe?

(Of course you do. Because if they did not have that right, then neither would you. You value this freedom and so do I.)

But as far as their personal belief, you would rather avoid that discussion and you are not interested in their beliefs.

Please correct me if I am not understanding you correctly.

jb.

see???? this is just what I'm talking about. News Flash!!!! It's not just christians that push beliefs and think they are the only ones right. it's in every belief. I'm not any faith

Some groups of Christians have tried to take my rights. I am happy that they have been unsuccessful and pray that they continue to be unsuccessful in this venture. In other countrys other religious groups have taken away the rights of individuals, especially women.

This speaks to the original post. Everyone can and should have their own beliefs and respect the beliefs of others. It is only when some people try to convince or tell others that their way is the only way that arguments usually begin. And when it goes farther and one group tries to control the actions of others, then it is worth arguing about.

Why do some want to control the actions of others? I could not tell you. I do not understand it.

Peace.

Well, just for the record, I'm not telling anyone they need to believe like me.

Almost every post I make is a defensive post against religious people trying to force the idea that their beliefs are absolute should apply to everyone.

I never suggest that any of my beliefs should apply to anyone else but me. My only argument is that my moral values and religious beliefs should be respected for me, if someone else doesn't like them, fine. Let them use their own value system.

But they aren't doing that. They are trying to push the Bible as the ultimate law from a supreme creator.

Like I say, if they want to believe that for themselves and follow those laws for themselves then more power to them.

But when they use those laws to judge me and condemn me as being ungodly simply because I believe that the Bible is the work of men. Then they have crossed over the line from a personal belief system into warriors for fascism based on what I believe to be a book that contains nothing more than the superstitious of ancient men who had ungodly agendas.

I’m arguing against fascism based on the idea that the rules came from “God” when in fact there is absolutely no credible evidence to support that those laws came from any divine entity.

My major points,…

Christian asks,…

1. Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?

My answer,… no.

Accusation – you’re a self-centered arrogant person who thinks your smarter than God.

2. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only God?

My answer,… no.

Accusation – You’re rejecting God, you can’t know love, you’re choosing to side with demons.

I mean, here we are already,…. no moral values have even come into play. For all these people know at this point my morals could match the morals given in the Bible tit-for-tat, and I’m already being judged as a heathen who is rejecting God before they even know what my moral values are!

And even if it turns out that I just coincidentally have precisely the same moral values as the Bible that still isn’t good enough for them. They would still make the above two accusations.

They are impossible to befriend without converting to their religion.

Clearly all Christians aren’t like this, and I’m fully aware of that.

But the most vociferous “Christian” posters on the forms are like that.

And so that’s why the forums take on this argumentative accusatory/defensive posturing.

I have friends from many beliefs and we get along fine because of respect. anyone (christian or no) that has strong beliefs to the point they insult anyone or push their beliefs on people is wrong.

In fact for the christians...the Bible actually tells us NOT to push our views on people or to judge. I know there are other religions out there that push their beliefs as well

I’m in total agreement with you YellowRose.

I get along just fine with all the Christians I meet in reality. I used to be a Christian. Most of relatives are Christians. My mother was a Christian I can’t never met a less judgmental person in my life. She would never tell anyone they are wrong for believing in another value system. Even though she believed in Christianity, she was wise enough to recognize that this was indeed her ‘belief’, and not an absolute for everyone. She understood the concept of faith completely. She viewed it entirely in terms of faith and choice.

And like you she would be quick to point out that her faith includes the believe that it would be wrong of her to push her beliefs onto others or judge others in any way. And so she didn’t do that.

If all Christians were like this I wouldn’t have a problem with any of them.

I still wouldn’t believe that the Bible is of divine origin though. My very own mother didn’t even have a problem with my choice to reject the Bible as being of divine origin. She truly believed that anyone can come to know God directly and whether you go through a book or take the direct route makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. Believing that the Bible is of divine origin is not important. Wanting to be a good person is the key.

She understood that.

She didn’t worship a book, she worshiped a God.

She was even in agreement with me that the book may very well contain errors and is extremely easy to misunderstand.

Her greatest faith is that God is good. She used to say that if there is anything in the Bible that conflict with that then it's probably wrong.

All Christians are not hardcore verbatim Bible thumpers.

I know that.

But hardcore verbatim Bible thumpers are easily attracted to public Internet forums because they represent a 'free open mic'

Abracadabra,

Your posts are so filled with pain. I understand that you have rejected Christianity as the truth and I can respect that, but I have no idea what could have fomented so much hate for the religion in you.

You claim that some Christians can only have other Christians as friends? Am I included with that group, in your mind? I have friends who aren't Christian and I have never tried to convert them. Does that change your mind? Even a little? What do you base your claim that so many Christians can only have Christian friends? I'm sure some do, but the Bible is EXPLICIT: Christians are encouraged to have non-Christian friends and COMMANDED to respect their friend's beliefs. I feel sorry for you. You seem to be blinded by your burning hatred, so that you cannot see that Christians are people...ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PEOPLE. Even those with whom you disagree.

You claim that Christians are trying to force their beliefs on others. Do you include me in that group? I haven't forced my beliefs on my own children, so why would I do it to others?

I have compassion for you, my friend. I'm sorry that you are hurting. I am sorry that you have allowed hate to blind you to the goodness of so many Christians, even the Bible thumping kind. I hope that you find peace within your self, so that you can put this anger to rest and stop holding such a terrible grudge against so many people.