thanks Mark I may not be the best typer or speller but I try

people have a right to their opinion and a right to not be attacked for that...why do these controversial topics always end up as a war of words? whatever happened to an exchange of ideas??

If you dont put aside the "youre either with me then youre against me" viewpoint, its all going to lead to ruin, its already heading there....

I think some need to consider just a little more than "it is always a poor persons fault that they are poor", this is a hard nose approach and puts no consideration for others lives at value.

I am a proponent of personal responsibility but I also know how life can be for a person who is struggling to climb up and out of poverty. Homeownership is considered one of these steps and many were attempting to capture this investment. Blame never solves anything. Empathy, evalutation, consideration and cooperation solve problems. We are Americans and should be looking out for our fellow Americans.

This is also a sign of the terrible, horrible and mismanaging administration we have been under for 8 years. There is more than this one sign of this evil we have suffered here in the US for these years. We will feel the damage caused by this man and his wicked wicked ways for a while to come.

Well, I am still in College so I live in my grandmothers house.(she is currently staying in a retirement home. My grandfather was the only one of them that worked and they had 3 kids. This house has has 3 bedrooms, 2 bath, 2 living rooms, kitchen/dinning room, garage, carport, and a built in apartment with its own kitchen, bath, and bedroom.) My parents house is also 3 bedroom, 2 bath, kitchen/dining room, 2 living rooms. Its in the best school district and is one of the highest areas in the city so we never have to worry about flooding.

Hey, life happens. A lady in one of my classes had to quit because she came home on January 3rd to see a u-haul driving away. Her husband had packed up his stuff and just left her and their children. Now she has to find a way to deal with the house, utilities, and take care of the kids on one income instead of two.

So is Dave saying that it is her fault that her husband decided to abandon the family because he can't take being a parent anymore and doesn't want to be tied down anymore? It's things like this that also cause financial troubles and make it hard for a person to hang on to a home. It isn't just because people were living beyond their means.

Or someone is in a job making great money, but the job is slowly killing him. He realizes that he can accept stress related highblood pressure and ulcers and live with the related health problems, or he can quite a job at which he has topped out the pay scale and have to start new at the bottom of the pay scale and can no longer afford everything.

What about an economic climate that has been telling people for a long time now that they only way to keep the economy healthy is for people to spend money. A financial climate that makes it easy to get credit. What about retail business that actually award prizes when cashiers get people to apply for the store card. What about companies that reward stores that get the most credit card conversions in that district.

We didn't get to be a credit society because people were stupid and didn't know what they were doing. We became a credit society because we were taught that it would be a good thing, because businesses stress and push their store cards. Because that emergency ALWAYS happens eventually. Because our own government tells us that the only way to keep afloat it to keep money circulating. Because the business concept that you have to spend money to make money has become such an often quoted concept that people have gotten it ingrained into their thinking out of context.

There are many reasons that people have trouble. There are many factors coming into play here. It isn't all the government's fault and it isn't all business' fault, and it isn't all the fault of the person who finds himself in a tough place financially.

But there is a point, stop this horrible governmental hemorrhaging of money in mismanaged war and start taking care of things at home. The government and the people are sometime a reflection. The government overspends as much as some people do. Is it any wonder that some people do see anything wrong with it when that's the way that even the government handles things?

Start looking at ways to make the economy work. Start looking at the fact that cost of living increases at a far faster rate than income. Deal with the issue that cost of living has gotten so high that so many average hard working people are below the poverty level. And not because they aren't trying. Deal with the issue that most food servers are still only getting just over 2$ an hour and the customers are required to pay their salary rather than the employers. Customers are already paying it in the cost of the meal, then paying it again in the tip they are guilted into having to pay, because the servers are given a joke of a wage. Deal with these issues at home for a change.

You ladies have just made the best posts I have seen all night

It is true moondark that it is sad. The question asked though was if I was outraged. For me to be outraged I would have to believe that it was someones fault. (It seems to me that this was another, lets me angry at the government thread. "I don't find this the governments fault.) Over the years my dad has been laid off, started a business with a partner that went down hill because it was opened right before 9/11 happened and the economy went down, and yet he is still doing very well. I am not sure exactly how much he makes but I believe it is close to 6 figures. I do know that he could make a lot more money if he moved somewhere else but he and my mother are happy here.

well we do disagree on that Chzter and Iam ok with that but my opinion is this, the government sets trade policy makes laws and trade agreements no other entity has the influence the government does and with bush in office no government has ever been more influenced by big business, granted all parties play the same game to differant degrees but if you wait for the free market to make corrections it will happen slightly b4 the revelution and well after it becomes to late

Well, I am outraged. But I don't know what else we can do but keep insisting on fairer wages, wages that keep up with the cost of living, wages that can support a person.

It's so easy to say people are living to high above their means. It happens sometimes. But more people didn't not get into that situation that way. People don't want to admit. Because if they do admit it, they might have to do something about it, and that means they will lose money, or at least, not make as much.

More single people are actually below or just at the poverty level because it require two incomes to get above it anymore.

I remember back in the late 80's, early 90's, one of the nearby towns police departments all went to file for food stamps to make a point. Nearly all of them qualified. It really annoys me when people just say it is an issue of people living too high on the hog.

moondark you have some great posts

Really, I'm waiting for the next depression. Not basing it on anything scientific. Just an overwhelming feeling I have that this economy really doesn't work right if the only way to keep it healthy is to get people to keep spending money they don't have.

I think that what we are now seeing is the result of that attitude and way of doing business.

Police in many places do receive poor wages. Our area will soon be increasing their wages, but they are also gonna start making people actually get a degree in criminology to become officers. Its all about furthering your education. Several minimum wage jobs are what are considered skill less jobs and its kind of hard to raise salaries for those kinds of jobs since anyone can do them . Thats why I am for programs that help pay for people for extra education after high school. I think it would be cheaper to help them out for a few years so that they can get better jobs and make more money then to just supplement their income with welfare for several years, possibly their whole life.

I have noticed a patern on some folks who seem to degrade certain topics deliberatly rather than have them discussed openly. some people realy do make alot of personal attacks and try to bait you into an argument outside the topic you wish to discuss. It makes me wonder why they cant honeslty defend there position and if they cant why do they stop others from haveing an honest discussion

Those programs are a great idea. Since most people trying to get more education are in jobs that don't pay enough to support themselves, let alone pay for schooling. But often, the career options they are being directed to are still what would be called "blue collar" jobs. Not that there is anything wrong with that. And some do pay well, others don't. But what about people who are interested in something else? And what about people who have to work and take care of the kids because no one else it there.

But we will still need people to do those 'unskilled' jobs. So are you saying that we will always have to have an impoverished class of society because we don't want to pay a livable wage?

I agree yet again moondark you often hear about the shortage of nurses well there is a shortage of nurses who will work for ten bucks an hour...so the industry trumps out its demand for more nurses sets up schools for them and undermines the wages of the other nurses. I dont think the free market is all its cracked up to be, unless of course your lucky enogh to be at the top of the food chain

No I dont think that. By the time we would get caught up in getting everyone educated (which would most likely take decades if even in some of our lifetimes, the things take lots of time) I would think and hope that robotics technology would come a long way. Technology could allow 1 person do to as much work as lets say 4 people. (this is strictly hypothetical) They would then get an increased wage.

Either way though, unless you have equal distribution of wealth then there will be people with a lot of money and people that don't have a lot of money. Though I hate the idea of equal distribution of wealth.

They have a shortage of engineers. My friend has a job offer for when he graduates thats gonna pay 70k.

I'm not sure you are taking into account all the factors that came together in what might be called the Perfect Subprime Storm.

For instance, you say the lenders got what was coming to them. However, did you know that the original lenders _didn't_? They packaged these mortgages, often lying about the underlying risks predicated on the predatory lending practices they used, and sold them off immediately. There was _every_ incentive to lie to borrowers, lending them much more money than the merits of the deal probably warranted. Why? Because the bigger the number, the better the commission, and since they were going to glop all this stuff together into exotic financial 'products'.

Many times, the bad money drove off the good-- the honest lenders found themselves being beaten into the ground by the carpetbaggers.

You say there needs to be responsibility, but I wonder if these same people aren't going to be looking for a government bailout similar to the Savings and Loan scandal engineered by Bush Sr.? And though some of the CEOs at the big bank holding companies did get (ahem) 'encouraged' to leave, they sure did so with big golden parachutes.

It's always a little too easy to blame the little guys, who often got taken in by the "My word is my bond" sharks who are as charismatic as they are greedy.

-Kerry O.

I always thought that free trade was supposed to mean that healthy competition for peoples business was supposed to help keep costs down. Now it means for business to find a way to keep prices as high as possible, wages as low as possible, so that they basically rape the producers and the consumers to make as much money as possible to pay all the people already at the top of the food chain.

Money is not an infinite resource. As the government prints money, it also takes money out of circulation. We aren't even on the gold standard, so why are they still hording gold at Fort Knox. I'll admit that I'm not sure the reasoning behind that. How much of the government's debt would be paid if they actually used it?

Maybe they should start using for government spending instead of taxing us for actually having a job and trying to make a living. The idea of taxing people for working is like punishing people for having a job. Yeah, I do prefer the flat tax idea over the government taking 30% of a paycheck. Then it is up to me to decide if I want to buy an item or not.

I watch the news, I listen, I see what is happening around me. I know the economy is broken, I just don't know enough to offer brilliant ideas on how to fix it.

I just know that people should be able to make a wage they can live on. And taxes should be more fair. Sure the numbers look bigger when the very wealthy pay taxes. But when it amounts so, say 10% of what they make, while the average person is paying 25% to 30%, then something needs to be done. Maybe everyone would only have to pay 15% if the wealthy were paying their fair share. Maybe if there were caps on medical costs, so people didn't pay huge costs for an advil when in the hospital and if medical insurance for women was the same as for men, instead of three times as much just because we have different reproductive organs.

Something needs to be done. But nothing will change so long as big business, which really runs this country, stops seeing people as disposable.