My apologies, I forgot to address this specific paragraph.

Specifically to point out to you that US involvement in the middle east has only been prominent over the last 50 years at MOST.

That region has been around for many THOUSANDS of years. Without ANY US involment for all that time.

So you really believe that the United States of America plays any REAL role in the "stability" of the middle east!? Simple COMMON SENSE dictates your "theory" is totally absurd!

The US pulls out of the region, they keep fighting among themselves, as they have a clear history of this for thousands of years and IF they actually become a threat to the United States, then we wipe them off the face of the planet.

You act as if they are some "major power" just because they have a literal FEW nukes.

And should the oil be cut off for a "week or so" as you state it would place the US in a "Great Depression"??? And world war would follow!?? Wow! You better ask for a refund from whatever source gave you your "educated" information. Because that is one of the most stupid statements and or "theories" I have heard yet!

Looking at such a statement, I would have to say your "educated" information is nothing more than the media, like CNBC and those types, because that is totally FALSE and rediculous!

You know as well as I do that it is environmentalists and the HUGE donors and little rodents that run around Washington that will prevent Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico from ever being truly tapped.

As to Pakistan, did you just say we should obliterate the whole country should they become a threat? I had to of read that wrong, and by the way, a large amount of the Pakistani population is highly educated and pro western.

You step all over us and question us who see oil as a true legitimate issue, by playing the chickenhawk card. It is really getting old and it is so incredibly weak of an argument. You have to know, I sure hope you can see past your heightened defensive against me to know that what I said was true. If oil gets cut off for a day the economy will get hit hard and if it gets cut off for longer we are in serious trouble.

This is fact, everything in this country and everything in the world runs because of oil. Without oil everything falls upon. It is so commonsense I can't believe I need to even explain it further.

"The dependency on oil has only developed over the last 50-60 years!"

What point are you making? Of course that is true. Better technology, departure in great percentages to truck and plane transportation and shipping from railroads, and on and on. The argument made is so lacking in common sense.

That dependency on oil has raised the standard of living many times over and has brought about incredible amounts of technological advances. In the last 50-60 years we have skipped steps in terms of technological advances. We went from rotary phones, computers that filled many rooms to computers with the same power small enough to be placed on a fingertip. You know what we can thank most of the technological advances?

Oil.

Got us into space that produced most cellphone and computer technology and on and on.

Gave us plastics to allow smaller and lighter items.

Because of this 'evil' dependency on oil we have become a highly advanced civilization in no time, with the technology advances on the close horizon to truly blow the minds of people who don't really seem to be surprised much anymore.

We need oil, we need the Middle East to remain a stable region, for if it is not and our oil supply, the world's oil supply, gets cut off the world economy and our economy will tank. Reality.

Ever hear of the East Asian Market Crisis in 1997? Thailand and Malaysia had been given aid by the IMF and they claimed to have more money in bank than was true.

Well, guess what happened as a result.

The Chinese, Japanese, and entire Asian market nearly collapsed as bad as the US stock market did that resulted in the Great Depression. As a result of the Asian market crash Brazil's economy tanked and if not in thanks to the US economy and world economic players the Russian stock market and economy nearly crashed as well. Had the Russian economy collapsed it would have taken many more economies with it, likely even our own. We took a hit as well, though not even close to as bad as the Asian market.

That whole fiasco was because of MALAYSIA and THAILAND having not enough money, you know, those HUGE economic powers they are....lol

Now, tell me you think everything would be alright should oil reserves be cut off for a day or more? A mere increase of a barrel of oil to $100 sent the DOW down more than a 100 points.

That is college education in political science and history as well as research into such situations and historical events.

This is not some weak personal attack on someone like you seem to be waging against me.

Wow, yet again I couldn't have said it better myself. thanks again Starsailor. I think the US needs to be total energy dependent as well but that will take time, lots of time. Damn Democrats!! Meanwhile, we fight wars.

Again, what is your source!??? You never seem to answer the question. And its not a "chickenhawk" card, Just because you don't have the backbone and do nothing but pay "lip service" and in the line of fire would be a coward, that's YOUR problem and issues. Not mine.

And wow, the DOW goes down 100 points! Its done worse without oil! Its gone down 300 even 400 points in a day! Where's that "great depression" you referred to? Once again, thats FACT and you have none!

Ok Mr. Brilliant, in 1960 what were the main stabalizing factors in the United States of America??? Oil is not even on the list! More FACT for you.

And this is not a "personal attack".. I could care less about you as a "person" because I don;t even know you.

You simply have NO FACTS! if you do, show your sources! But you can;t because all you have is your "opinion" and what you have been fed. at least mine has documented proof, which that is "fact" no matter who is typing it out to you.

Umm once again I have to take it easy here due to the uniform.

You think we should be "totally engery dependent"???

And we have not fought a "war" since WWII, or did they not teach you that in your Division??? Nor have we won any "conflict" since WWII. The reason is very simple, they wage "political gain" not "war".

Try to deny this one soldier! The great General Douglas MacArthur stated in a speach that holds the key to both fighting and winning any such "war" or "conflict".. he stated "You use war as a very last resort. But when forced to, you hit the enemy with everything you have and you make it as short as possible."

This has not been done since WWII and is the reason why we have waisted American lives for someone elses politcial and or monitary gain.

More "fact" did anything good change after the Korean "war? Not a damn thing! Anything good change after the Vietnam "war"? Not a damn thing. Anything good change after the tours now in Iraq!!?? Not a damn thing and there is solid evidence its WORSE NOW!

Now tell me that's not "FACT"!

Umm once again I have to take it easy here due to the uniform.

You think we should be "totally engery dependent"???

And we have not fought a "war" since WWII, or did they not teach you that in your Division??? Nor have we won any "conflict" since WWII. The reason is very simple, they wage "political gain" not "war".

Try to deny this one soldier! The great General Douglas MacArthur stated in a speach that holds the key to both fighting and winning any such "war" or "conflict".. he stated "You use war as a very last resort. But when forced to, you hit the enemy with everything you have and you make it as short as possible."

This has not been done since WWII and is the reason why we have waisted American lives for someone elses politcial and or monitary gain.

More "fact" did anything good change after the Korean "war? Not a damn thing! Anything good change after the Vietnam "war"? Not a damn thing. Anything good change after the tours now in Iraq!!?? Not a damn thing and there is solid evidence its WORSE NOW!

Now tell me that's not "FACT"!

sumthing diff...
Are you being sarcastic or do you agree we should be energy independent? With your smarta** attitude I can't tell. Please turn down the attitude and turn up the intellect in this discussion. BTW, I'm not army or a marine so absolutely stop talking down to me in those terms. I have two masters degress and a commission. Sir, will do just fine, thank you.

Ok Sir,

Well with your "two masters degrees" can you figure out what "being totally engery dependent" means!!????

With just my high school edumacation, that means you will be putting us (the United States of America) being totally "dependent" on those who are trying to kill our soldiers in Iraq!

And to clarify, yes I'm being a little sarcastic because it's very difficult for me to believe that ANYONE with "two masters degrees" could be so simply "stupid" in its literal terms.

Now, if you are actually refering to being "totally engery INDEPENDENT" which means we do not have to rely on other sources to supply our own energy needs, THEN I would agree with you!

However, since you hold "two masters degrees" I would have just assumed you would know the difference between "DEPENDENT" and "INDEPENDENT"!

And you never answer my other questions either. being a "commissioned" officer, you should be very familiar with the statement I referred to by General Douglas MacArthur.

So why don't you now address the questions I posed to you earlier? Seems yourself and the other gentleman do not answer the questions posed.

Thank you.

Go look up the East Asia Market Crisis of 1997. I'm not doing the research for you, I did it years ago, and I'm certainly not going to dig up old political science essays. Do the easy way out, the wikipedia way for the people who want semi-decent info quickly.

You just called me a chickenhawk a second time, I have a college degree in history with a heavy minor, that I am about to achieve a major in in political science to back myself up. Most of the greatest political and military thinkers of history were never military men themselves, Machiavelli and Voltaire as being two great examples. Sun Tzu was never a military leader either. They were all strategists. So I have historical fact to back up my positions as well as my credentials.

I rattle off the entire East Asian Market Crisis of 1997 and its impact and effects, which went right over your head and doesn't even sound like you heard of it before. To attack me on all of that you simply through the flag for where is the proof to my words. Go look it up on wikipedia if you don't believe me, I promise you I am correct.

About the dip of 100 Dow points for oil, are you being serious when you make your counterarguments? No kidding the Dow has dipped greater numbers, all I said was how it had dipped after hitting the $100 mark. For a total of 100 points for only a mere cents of change to a barrel of oil price is quite an impact.

And again, you talk about the 1960s, we barely even used any plastics or amounts of oil then compared to now. The argument is so baseless. Thing is then you spout of facts with no support either, and not just no support, but it doesn't even confide with recent history. You talk like the US and world have the same oil needs today as they did in 1960! lol, that's insane.

This fed to me stuff is absolute bull as well, I haven't been force fed once, you are using very disgusting libel. Should I post the definition of libel and source it as well for you considering it is a hefty legal term?

Common knowledge of an individual does not require the sourcing of materials. If I was using knowlege from another and taking it as my own information than I would be in fault.

However, I am using my own educated common knowledge to bring forth all opinions and HISTORICAL facts I have included (about Asia Market Crisis and historical figures and impact of $100 oil barrel on the DOW) and thus I am not required to source. If you believe I am lying through my teeth it is your responsibility to prove me wrong and prove me to be a liar and use it against me to attack my credibility. Since you do not have this you are continuing to commit libel against me, which is indeed an equivalent of a personal attack.

Then in a "nutshell" here, you are believing what you are "fed" and not looking to other sources or even thinking about "questioning" what they are "feeding" you.

Don't be alarmed, you are like most in the USA today, hense the decline in our country.

And again, you used the word "chickenhawk". I only pointed out "fact" once again. Because your :words" are nothing but that. Would you put your life on the line, exchanging with one of our troops, and facing death over oil!? of course not, you are not even brave enough to put your life on the line for actual FREEDOM, let alone anything else.

Just another simple "fact"..thats called a COWARD..you can look up that specific definition in Webster's. Some things are worth fighting for...some things are worth dying for..but oil is NOT one of those! You want and like it so much..then YOU go put your ass on the line for it!

What the heck are you talking about? I just told you again and again I have done research, I have read The Prince, The Art of War, The Discourses, and more history books from all different avenues of the world and time period than I could ever mention. I am being 'fed' on my own intuition to educate myself in the great works of great thinkers throughout history. And, you attack me that as if I am being force fed bullcrap? I question all I am fed, if you ever read Machiavelli, which I SERIOUSLY doubt you have, you would know some of his ideas are mixed heavily in totalitarianism and I do not agree with him on certain aspects such as that.

However, in order to not agree with it I had to actually read great works of history from numerous sources. I am being force fed by no one. I have questioned plenty of times professors pushing down our throats their own opinions with facts and historical evidence to counter their own points. Sometimes I have succeeded, sometimes I have not. And to you this is similiar to most people in the USA today? I wonder if you are even reading what I am writing or if you can even comprehend it.

And, again more personal attacks no matter how much you will deny it. You call me a coward and described the definition of chickenhawk as what I am. Even though you would never by it because of course I am obviously conservative and lie, I have really bad asthma and despite taking the military exams in highschool I was told by my recruiting officer that I would never be accepted, at least in a soldier sense even if I made it through boot camp. This means my butt would be sitting behind a desk, and I decided to go the way of college education immediately and get my history degree and go down the path of law, politics, or teaching. Currently I am on my way for my teaching degree.

Like I said time and time again, fighting for oil is a strategic necessity for this country, no matter the cost. Without oil the economy collapses and shuts down. We would have extremely limited mass transportation of goods. We would have shortages of food, medical, and so forth all across the country.

Many jobs based around oil would come to a halt (gas, plastics, and so on), transportation workers would be out of jobs (truck drivers transporting goods), and on and on. We are a nation of oil, everything is centered around it. Most people would not be able to even get to their own jobs. Everything would crumble. To think otherwise is simply denying reality.

Despite how evil it may sound and how outlandish to a sensationalist, a non-realist, oil IS worth fighting for.

Sumthingdiff...
Again turn down the attitude or I will no longer indulge you with my input. The purpose for war is to achieve political gain or advantage. Your question to me is semantics. I am very suspicious of your agenda in this discussion. Do you just like to hear yourself talk or are you really that dissatisfied with your life in America. Stop with the personal attacks. Debate the issues not the people.

What the heck are you talking about? I just told you again and again I have done research, I have read The Prince, The Art of War, The Discourses, and more history books from all different avenues of the world and time period than I could ever mention. I am being 'fed' on my own intuition to educate myself in the great works of great thinkers throughout history. And, you attack me that as if I am being force fed bullcrap? I question all I am fed, if you ever read Machiavelli, which I SERIOUSLY doubt you have, you would know some of his ideas are mixed heavily in totalitarianism and I do not agree with him on certain aspects such as that.

However, in order to not agree with it I had to actually read great works of history from numerous sources. I am being force fed by no one. I have questioned plenty of times professors pushing down our throats their own opinions with facts and historical evidence to counter their own points. Sometimes I have succeeded, sometimes I have not. And to you this is similiar to most people in the USA today? I wonder if you are even reading what I am writing or if you can even comprehend it.

And, again more personal attacks no matter how much you will deny it. You call me a coward and described the definition of chickenhawk as what I am. Even though you would never by it because of course I am obviously conservative and lie, I have really bad asthma and despite taking the military exams in highschool I was told by my recruiting officer that I would never be accepted, at least in a soldier sense even if I made it through boot camp. This means my butt would be sitting behind a desk, and I decided to go the way of college education immediately and get my history degree and go down the path of law, politics, or teaching. Currently I am on my way for my teaching degree.

Like I said time and time again, fighting for oil is a strategic necessity for this country, no matter the cost. Without oil the economy collapses and shuts down. We would have extremely limited mass transportation of goods. We would have shortages of food, medical, and so forth all across the country.

Many jobs based around oil would come to a halt (gas, plastics, and so on), transportation workers would be out of jobs (truck drivers transporting goods), and on and on. We are a nation of oil, everything is centered around it. Most people would not be able to even get to their own jobs. Everything would crumble. To think otherwise is simply denying reality.

Despite how evil it may sound and how outlandish to a sensationalist, a non-realist, oil IS worth fighting for.


You continue to claim this is a "personal attack" on you. When its simply not. I point out "fact". I call a "horse" a "horse", is that an "attack" on the horse? I think not.

I have no doubt what so ever you are more "book smart" than I. I can concede that one immediately. But I have known many people just like you.

Once again, this is NOT a personal "attack" on you. But all your "book knowledge" means didly when it comes to actual "experience". Ever hear of a "master mechanic" that got thier just by book knowledge? I think not. And any types of books written were usually done from "experience", not by "reading it".

So your's in again nothing but "thoery".."book knowledge", which is good to a point. However, you place that against first hand experience, you simply have no chance.

And why I have "harsh" styled posts to you sir, is because it is people like you who put the lives of my fellow American's on the line for something you only have a "theory" on.

As I stated before, and this is simple "fact", not any kind of personal "attack. If you love that oil so much, then you be man enough to fight and die for it!

I will fight and die for the United States of America and my people without reservation. They are worth fighting and dying for. But your "oil" is not worth ONE American life! And if you think it is, then YOU be man enough to PROVE that!

The post below this one, screwed this one up

Simply to end this because it is going around in circles and despite what you say the evidence of your words do indeed portray personal attack, I will finish this on my end.

When oil supply from the Middle East is cut off for a day or longer and we feel the effects, which will likely be far worse than I even portrayed, then I will have the real proof to say I told you so.

Sumthingdiff...
Who are you? Background? Political affiliation? Full disclosure... I am a conservative. I want to know whom I am debating. We can agree to disagree or we can come to consensus on ideas, but I need to know where your point of view is coming from. Stop with the personal attacks.

What a waste of time it was starting this thread. It's turned into another USA thread.

I couldn't agree more. Shame on all you self-absorbed Americans. Don't you know Canada is in mourning for Bhutto.

Once AGAIN, you FAIL to answer DIRECT questions "sir". The questions are SIMPLE and to the POINT, WHY can you not answer them?

As I clearly pointed out in the previous post, you either do not know the difference between "dependent" or "independant" with your "two masters degrees". OR, if you truly believe that the United States of America should be "completely energy dependent" (YOUR OWN WORDS SIR!) Either way, you have PROVEN YOURSELF to be an incompitent as to any "leadership" role, especially if it involves American lives! It does not take more than a 7th grade education to see that one by YOUR OWN WORDS!

I have no "political" agenda. I am not a "democrat", nor "republican", nor "liberal", nor any of the bullsh*t you seem to subscribe to.

I am an AMERICAN..period! And I am sick and tired of the American government putting American lives on the line when it is CLEAR it is NOT for JUST CAUSE! OIL is NOT JUST CAUSE to lose ANY LIFE!

And seeing how you can't even respond to the direct and clear questions posed, I'll leave you with this quote from one of our GREAT Presidents that will hopefully shed a little light into your "two master degrees" brain that gives a very good view on how an "American" can be defined!

<<'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.' >>
Theodore Roosevelt 1907


Now let me point out one specific area, just for your "two master degree" brain to really THINK on...

<<There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.>>

So you go ahead and start dividing yourselves, just as the "democrats", "republicans", "liberals", etc, etc have done and are doing. That "politics" HURTS Americans and many Americans have been hurt and even loss of life due to "party politics"! Our country is declining due to "party politics" and all the other BS that goes along with it!

You either do what's GOOD for AMERICANS or you back the hell off! To hell with your "party politics"! As Rooservelt clearly stated, you divide you allegiance, in this case to the corrupt "party politics" that seperates and HURT this country, then you better rethink your ALLEGIANGE!

<<and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.>>

So pin that up on the wall with your "two masters degrees"!!!