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| Topic: Moore and Bernie are WRONG | |
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Michael Moore and Bernie Sanders has one thing in common, they seems to love socialism. Look to Norway, the richest and happiest country in the world, they say. That’s how a society should be, that’s socialism in practice!
When selecting facts that suits their view and ignore facts that don't, then Norway is really great. I know there has been a big discussion about healthcare in US the recent years. Therefore some US politicians use Norway as an example of free healthcare. In Norway there has been “free” healthcare for more than fifty years. But is it really free? Does someone really think nurses and doctors work for free? And hospitals rise up from the ground by it selves? The money has to come from somewhere. And in Norway that somewhere is from two main sources; taxes and oil! Income tax upwards to 48%, tax on goods and products somewhere between 25% and up to 150% for some products like alcohol, tobacco and cars. $400 a year just to have a car registered, $7 per gallon of gas, $3 to $20 passing thru a toll booth (“toll” is a Norwegian word btw) around every major city centers and many bridges and tunnels. Driving from Moss to Larvik (two small towns south of Oslo, about 40mi distance) cost no less than $34 one way! A glass of beer is $9 and upwards. A house outside a city starts at $300.000. In Oslo you only get a small apartment for that. A Golf 1.4l entry level cost about $35.000 and up to $100.000. Yes, for a VW Golf! These are just few examples of how we pay for “free” healthcare in Norway. And don’t forget that oil income is a BIG contributor to everything “free” in Norway. Without it we would have paid even more! Does Americans in general know how expensive “free” healthcare really is? Does Bernie Sanders and other politicians tell you this? So, it’s not free. But is it any good? It’s not bad nor good. Most doctors do a good job, but waiting time for surgery can be months and in some cases years. The hospitals are sometimes old and need rehabilitation. There are sometimes few hospital beds and sometimes you will lay in a bed in a hallway in lack off rooms. I would rather pay less in tax and more for insurance so I could choose for my self what is the best healthcare for me and my family. In Norway the government choose that for you, if you like it or not. |
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Sat 10/20/18 11:44 AM
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Michael Moore and Bernie Sanders has one thing in common, they seems to love socialism. Look to Norway, the richest and happiest country in the world, they say. That’s how a society should be, that’s socialism in practice! When selecting facts that suits their view and ignore facts that don't, then Norway is really great. I know there has been a big discussion about healthcare in US the recent years. Therefore some US politicians use Norway as an example of free healthcare. In Norway there has been “free” healthcare for more than fifty years. But is it really free? Does someone really think nurses and doctors work for free? And hospitals rise up from the ground by it selves? The money has to come from somewhere. And in Norway that somewhere is from two main sources; taxes and oil! Income tax upwards to 48%, tax on goods and products somewhere between 25% and up to 150% for some products like alcohol, tobacco and cars. $400 a year just to have a car registered, $7 per gallon of gas, $3 to $20 passing thru a toll booth (“toll” is a Norwegian word btw) around every major city centers and many bridges and tunnels. Driving from Moss to Larvik (two small towns south of Oslo, about 40mi distance) cost no less than $34 one way! A glass of beer is $9 and upwards. A house outside a city starts at $300.000. In Oslo you only get a small apartment for that. A Golf 1.4l entry level cost about $35.000 and up to $100.000. Yes, for a VW Golf! These are just few examples of how we pay for “free” healthcare in Norway. And don’t forget that oil income is a BIG contributor to everything “free” in Norway. Without it we would have paid even more! Does Americans in general know how expensive “free” healthcare really is? Does Bernie Sanders and other politicians tell you this? So, it’s not free. But is it any good? It’s not bad nor good. Most doctors do a good job, but waiting time for surgery can be months and in some cases years. The hospitals are sometimes old and need rehabilitation. There are sometimes few hospital beds and sometimes you will lay in a bed in a hallway in lack off rooms. I would rather pay less in tax and more for insurance so I could choose for my self what is the best healthcare for me and my family. In Norway the government choose that for you, if you like it or not. What about the numerous other countries that have govenrment health care? Denmark, Sweden, Germany...ect. I apprecite what you are saying about *your* thoughts and experiences... But people in the Scandinavian countries and most of Europe report a higher life satisfaction...they don't seem to be mad about the taxes.. https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/206468/happiest-unhappiest-countries-world.aspx |
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Edited by
Easttowest72
on
Sun 10/21/18 02:09 AM
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The problem with socialism is everyone isn't paying into the system. Some won't work at all, just a very expensive baby factory. Some healthy people claim to be disabled. So tax payers are already funding free healthcare.
It's time to stop punishing people for being productive. I think anything over 40 hours in a work week shouldn't be taxed at all. Some people are going above and beyond to contribute to society while some are leeches. We need a balance. Free healthcare for all should only be considered if it comes with a full time job for all. I wonder how people who are fine with tax payers being forced to pay healthcare for everyone, would feel about everyone being forced to work.  Disabled could be customer service. Single moms could be forced to work in daycares. Most people lose 80% of their welfare benefits when they go back to work. Plus they would be paying into the system. |
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The problem with socialism is everyone isn't paying into the system. Some won't work at all, just a very expensive baby factory. Some healthy people claim to be disabled. So tax payers are already funding free healthcare. It's time to stop punishing people for being productive. I think anything over 40 hours in a work week shouldn't be taxed at all. Some people are going above and beyond to contribute to society while some are leeches. We need a balance. Free healthcare for all should only be considered if it comes with a full time job for all. HORRORS! You EXPECT them to WORK???? Heaven forbid! Work is a dirty word! How dare you ask them to be contributing members of a society. Then, you WANT some tax-free money on top of it all??? Why that's pure mutiny! Ever notice trucks running about with junk in them? Scrappers collect the junk, haul it in, and get paid "in cash" for that. Not one nickle is declared on income taxes. Much to the dems dismay. ( HAHAHAHA!!!) |
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A lot of the baby mama's have a dope dealing boyfriend selling dope for cash also. They won't be happy working a full time job.
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Sanders is a lifetime of lazy.
Even the hippies were smart enough to cull his lame self from their herd at the commune. Michael Moore... Pffft! He loves Burger King, more than life itself. Moore is no socialist. He's a corrupt capitalist . A snake oil salesman. He found a gimmick to swindle money out of people. Duplicitous and conflicted. On one hand, Moore puts on a show of protesting against war. On the other hand? Moore owns a buttload of stock, in defense manufacturing. On socialism... Not for me. I I have friends living in socialist countries. Some claim to love it. Some claim to hate it. Again, it isn't for me. Not in a box. Not with a fox. Not in the rain. Not in a train. I may eat green eggs & ham. But i do not like socialism, sam-i-am. |
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No system will be perfect. Some people wont work. Some people in need wont work, and others with more resources than they could ever need, that THEY did not 'work' for (family money, inheritance, windfalls, investments) will not 'work' either.
we will have no system that guarantees everyone 'works'. So we have to allow people to 'contribute', and look after the basics of those who are struggling and need a little help. I think of it as a VIP fee. Those in the upper echelon of socioeconomic status get perks and privileges merely for being in that CLASS, that others will not. They have their basics, their wants, AND SOME REWARDS on top of it. And they have that in part for being in this country, so they pay a little fee,(if their accountants don't find all the loopholes to reduce it to nothing) meanwhile, others who have not seen those same rewards, perks, or privileges in this country in spite of them having 'worked' in their lifetimes or contributed in some way, can sometimes still struggle and need a hand up out of the ditch, and for them, there is a place in the budget for 'general welfare'. nothing will be perfect, but its how we look after the most in need that defines us, not how much we kiss up to the most well off. |
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Some countries force people to work. If we are wanting to be like other countries, that's where we should start.
People being irresponsible with money isn't an excuse to sit on welfare. Inheritance is worked for by the parents and a lot of times by the kids. I worked overtime at my job this week and have spent my time off working on rental property. My kids who will inherit the property also worked on it too. My son took vacation days to help. Kids who are raised by irresponsible parents grow up thinking things should be handed to them. My kids have learned to have a work ethic and to keep a nice home. They are acquiring problem solving skills. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Sun 10/21/18 10:24 AM
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Some countries force people to work. If we are wanting to be like other countries, that's where we should start. People being irresponsible with money isn't an excuse to sit on welfare. Inheritance is worked for by the parents and a lot of times by the kids. I worked overtime at my job this week and have spent my time off working on rental property. My kids who will inherit the property also worked on it too. My son took vacation days to help. Kids who are raised by irresponsible parents grow up thinking things should be handed to them. My kids have learned to have a work ethic and to keep a nice home. They are acquiring problem solving skills. countries such as? I think we should emulate countries who have citizens who value their fellow citizen, more than they do some idealistic concept of intimidation and 'work'. I think we should emulate countries with a high quality of life, healthier quality of life, and less poverty and inequality. People 'work' in many ways that do not earn a paycheck, they are still valuable because they are PEOPLE, they still are contributing to the fabric of their country, once again, there are few people 'sitting on welfare'. MOST states in this country have a LIFETIME limit of how many years one can receive welfare. Of course there are rich people and rich kids who work and poor ones too, but not EVERY one rich has or does anymore than every poor person has or does, which was the point of how over simplistic the concept of 'work' based merit is. |
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I apprecite what you are saying about *your* thoughts and experiences... But people in the Scandinavian countries and most of Europe report a higher life satisfaction...they don't seem to be mad about the taxes.. https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/206468/happiest-unhappiest-countries-world.aspx It's a good question. And there's not an easy answer to that. I know a lot of people in Scandinavia and Germany and a few other countries report about good life quality and happiness. What's not clear, and that is VERY true for Norway, is _why_ so many are happy. I don't know US in every detail, but I know that people without jobs do have a rough life. Many have no home and struggle just to get food every day. I don't think those people would report about very good life quality. Don't you agree? And of course there are people without jobs here too (in fact, very many of them). But in Norway and Scandinavia they don’t have to live on the streets. Actually, every single Norwegian is _entitled_ to a home, clothes, food and everything they need from day to day. In some cases there is more profitable not working. It’s not difficult to understand why most of these people report about a ok life. Don’t you agree? So the big question is how much would you as a worker pay for other people that don’t work? Most of us (me too) will not accept to see people living on the street and have a miserable life. But when some people get more money than people with full time jobs? When there are too many cases like this, people start asking questions. |
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The problem with socialism is everyone isn't paying into the system. Some won't work at all, just a very expensive baby factory. Some healthy people claim to be disabled. This is very true. I can’t speak for the rest of the world, but I know Norway and how it is here. We’re about 5,2 million people. About 1,8 million is either kids or elderly over 66 years. The rest, about 3,4 million, should be working. But no, it’s _only_ 2,7 million with a job. About 700.000 people doesn’t work (actually the numbers are slightly higher because many doesn’t work full time and still get some economically support in addition to their salary)! So, making it too lucrative not having a job will just increase the unemployment rates. In Norway the official numbers are 4% unemployment, among the lowest in Europe. But the Norwegian politicians came up with a clever plan. What if we only count people that are temporary unemployed and call all the rest something else? About 600.000 people without a job are categorized with different health issues, drug abuse and other socially obstacles. Pretending there’s a low unemployment rate will never solve the problems. |
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No system will be perfect. Some people wont work. Some people in need wont work, and others with more resources than they could ever need, that THEY did not 'work' for (family money, inheritance, windfalls, investments) will not 'work' either. we will have no system that guarantees everyone 'works'. Yes, I know. There's no system in the world that are perfect. Too many Norwegians think our system is close to perfect. I think not. A reason why many Norwegians don't protests is because we have too much money. Even people without work will have a home, a car, going on vacation abroad, buying new clothes now and then, and so on. So if most of us have what it takes to have a reasonably good life, why would we complain? But is the Norwegian welfare system sustainable? Without the oil, I think not. And what to do when there is no oil left? Force tons of people back to work? |
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Edited by
I_love_bluegrass
on
Sun 10/21/18 12:11 PM
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It's a good question. And there's not an easy answer to that. I know a lot of people in Scandinavia and Germany and a few other countries report about good life quality and happiness. What's not clear, and that is VERY true for Norway, is _why_ so many are happy. I don't know US in every detail, but I know that people without jobs do have a rough life. Many have no home and struggle just to get food every day. I don't think those people would report about very good life quality. Don't you agree? And of course there are people without jobs here too (in fact, very many of them). But in Norway and Scandinavia they don’t have to live on the streets. Actually, every single Norwegian is _entitled_ to a home, clothes, food and everything they need from day to day. In some cases there is more profitable not working. It’s not difficult to understand why most of these people report about a ok life. Don’t you agree? So the big question is how much would you as a worker pay for other people that don’t work? Most of us (me too) will not accept to see people living on the street and have a miserable life. But when some people get more money than people with full time jobs? When there are too many cases like this, people start asking questions. This is a discussion *I* am having with EirikViking....I am not interested in anyone else's input right now. Thank you. You are aware that, back in the early Middle Ages (and before)...when people had to spend all their time just trying to subsist/ survive....there was very little art or cresativity, or technological advances.. Once we became farmers, inhabited villages, and people didn't have to scrape and forgae daily just to get their basic food and shelter...that freed up time and intellect for art, inventing, and so forth.. Just necause people have their basic needs met (as you mentioned) doesn't mean they are going to sit on their a** and do nothing.. Some will, of course..every society has lazy people and those who'd rather drink all day..(Van Gough comes to mind, but he created wonderful art) But for most people...being freed from have to worry about the basics frees them to spend more time with their familes....create things (if they are talented that way), do things they enjoy... Ergo..better quality of life. It is shameful we, as a suppised "first world" country have homeless people...people who die because they can't afford medical care, children who go to bed hungry/ live in poverty... As I have said REPEATEDLY....a lot my taxes currently go for things I do NOT agree with and will never use...I'd rather they go for things to aleviate the above problems.. I believe the reasoning behind the suppling of basics there in the Scandinavian coutries is because THAT is cheaper in the lonbg run that NOT doing so...(does that make sense?) Like, paying people in this country enough so someone who works full time still needs/ qualifies for food stamps..and having free health care instead of poor people going to the ER and not being able to pay the bills(meaning, hospitals have to write that money off/ roll it into costs to other people) would actually *save* money in the long run... |
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In Norway the official numbers are 4% unemployment, among the lowest in Europe. But the Norwegian politicians came up with a clever plan. What if we only count people that are temporary unemployed and call all the rest something else? About 600.000 people without a job are categorized with different health issues, drug abuse and other socially obstacles. Pretending there’s a low unemployment rate will never solve the problems. They do that here too... All those people who gave up looking for jobs...or were downsized or eliminated because of their age (ageism is rampant here in the job market)... They don't figure into the actual unemployed statistics...which would be *far* higher if they did. |
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I believe the reasoning behind the suppling of basics there in the Scandinavian coutries is because THAT is cheaper in the lonbg run that NOT doing so...(does that make sense?) Like, paying people in this country enough so someone who works full time still needs/ qualifies for food stamps..and having free health care instead of poor people going to the ER and not being able to pay the bills(meaning, hospitals have to write that money off/ roll it into costs to other people) would actually *save* money in the long run... I think there is something between the US and the Norwegian welfare system. I don't think it's OK to have people dying of hunger in a civilized country. I really don't. Nor do I think it's OK to pay lazy people either. I do put this to an extent, but you know what I mean. Without the oil and a one TRILLION dollar bank account, Norway wouldn't had a chance paying the bills. That's why a Norwegian who has never worked in his life will receive about $35.000 a year. If he/she has kids under 18, then add as much as $15.000 on top. That's more than most people at work without a degree or other higher education. This is NOT sustainable. When the oil is out just watch how quick our bank account will disappear! My solution is to help those who really needs it and "kick the buts" of those just being lazy. Our bank account: https://money.cnn.com/2017/09/19/investing/norway-pension-fund-trillion-dollars/ |
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All those people who gave up looking for jobs...or were downsized or eliminated because of their age (ageism is rampant here in the job market)... They don't figure into the actual unemployed statistics...which would be *far* higher if they did. And this is just lying to us and them, instead of handling the problem. We have a saying here in Norway; you don't pee in your pants to keep you warm. That won't last very long. I see some of the same attitude in our politicians ;) Thanks for your replies, btw :) |
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