no, what I see is that if there is a God, you believe that God cannot be personable. but if we were created in the image of God, our idealism, humor, emotional state, awareness also comes from God. not our evil intent, but as a human being undefiled, all of us as a whole reflects to some degree the personality of what God is.

after all, the first Commandment is have no other gods before ME. which then is furthered by God claiming to be a jealous God. and jealousy is a definite trait shared by billions.

that is why I choose to bounce my thoughts off of you. I already know you think the Bang is a load of baloney, but I also know you believe this entire universe began some how. for one, we are posting which proves we exist.

you have already read where I believe science does not hold the answers, but they are merely a tool trying to define what we can. how I find dating methods to be skewed, and other things. but I believe in the laws of physics. I believe in quantum mechanics. I believe in mathematical proofs. I believe in engineering. so basically, I am just bouncing my own definitions off of yours.

if there is a God
??? There is no question in my mind that there is a God.
God is everywhere you look, even the fact that you can look.
To me, that statement is kinda disturbing.
if we were created in the image of God
Image is subjective. Do I believe God looks like people? No way.
Do I believe that God is composed of matter and has an imagination, certainly.
human being undefiled
Undefiled assumes defiling can happen. It also assumes there is a pristine form. I say, we are a product of existence and no matter what form we take we are pristine. Each person on this planet is a pristine example of that person on this planet at any given time. We are not defective, we are unique.
our idealism, humor, emotional state, awareness also comes from God
The way I see it, those things and more IS God not something that comes FROM God.
all of us as a whole reflects to some degree the personality of what God is
I submit for consideration that all of us 'individually' reflect 'entirely' the personality of God.
Since God is everywhere, in everything, always, how could that not be true?
which then is furthered by God claiming to be a jealous God
not sure about you but My God has no capacity for jealousy. Lemmesplain,
If God is the creator of the Universe and is everywhere and everywhen, any Gods other than it are by default his own creation. My God is not jealous of anything. If it doesn't like something it just winks it out of existence. That's because My God has the power of creation. Jealousy makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
jealousy is a definite trait shared by billions
So is pooping.
You do realize you are trying to assign human traits to God, right?
It doesn't matter what is written in a book. That book is for man to have power over man. God isn't written in a book. God is written in the very reality that surrounds us. God is the fact that we can dream and contemplate God. God is places we can't fathom. In the chaos of random interaction. Even in the mood you feel at any given time.
God is everywhere, everywhen and everyhow. God is in us and we are in God.
Not separate, part of.

I also know you believe this entire universe began some how
See that right there explains my belief in God.
I can reason creation down to the instant of change that started it all in motion. What I can't reason is what caused that first change. It had to be something. Its that lack of reasoning to explain the something that causes me to HAVE TO believe in God.
we are posting which proves we exist.
not necessarily. Hallucinations can be very convincing.
I once had a bad reaction to a drug in the military, I saw things that were not there but I still recall them as memories. At the time, they were as real as a brick wall and as complex as normal human interactions.
Reality always requires a bit of faith to assume it is reality.
I believe in mathematical proofs
Mathematical proofs are dependent on understanding of math. 1+1=2 except when it doesn't. Example: 1 man and 1 pregnant woman equals 3. There may come a time when math is inadequate to explain reality. At that time we may devise a yet unknown system of determination that better explains reality.
The same applies to the fundamental laws of the Universe.
We have not experienced; tested and observed everything in the Universe so we will never be sure if the laws are actually laws or observations until we do.
Space is really, really big. There are places where laws may break down like inside black holes. We can guess what happens but until we can actually go inside a black hole and look, its all guesses.

I'm not the religious type but have respect for others belief's.
In any discussion about religion I'm just taken back at the hostility from the so called religious people!
And they are meant to be the good ones!

I mean, religion isn't like that is it?
Just look at the middle east, Syria etc!
Yeah right!
Also, most western followers are very hypocritical,
Racist and selfish!
They use it for their own agenda!
If you're god turned up and he /she is what you believe then he'll be very pi##ed with you!

Man created "religion " not God.

Religion is mans way to reach God, Jesus Christ is God's way to reach man.

With "organized" religion there will definitely be hostilities for many reasons. Politics and pride are two big culprits .

The best two commands God gave are...

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him , Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart , and with all thy soul , and with all thy mind.

22:38
This is the first and great commandment.

22:39
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

22:40
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I would refrain from saying almost all Western followers are very hypocritical, racists, and selfish.

Unless you know all these "followers " and have observed and studied them to make such a bold generalized statement, which we both know you haven't nor ever will.

99% of the believers I come in contact with through various facets are not hypocritical, racists, nor selfish.

Almost all my best friends are pastors, teachers, and missionaries.
They all have sacrificed (if you will) to serve the Lord here and abroad.

And they are very consistent in their servitude towards the Lord.

To say almost all western followers are,
1. Hypocritical (what are they supposedly hypocritical about?)

2. Racists (examples please)

3. Selfish (examples please)

Those are three heavy charges to lay at a whole group of people without just cause.

"99% of the believers I come in contact with through various facets are not hypocritical, racists, nor selfish. They all have sacrificed (if you will) to serve the Lord here and abroad. And they are very consistent in their servitude towards the Lord."


To say almost all western followers are,
1. Hypocritical (what are they supposedly hypocritical about?)

A - "thou shall not kill, or steal" written in your book. How much $ did westerners pay for the lands they now 'possess' - was it a fair deal for the true owners ?
Would Jesus buy an island for the value of worthless coloured glass beads, and then commit genocide to take over the rest of the land ?


2. Racists (examples please)

A - Why is Jesus portrayed as a white man so often when he was of middle eastern appearance ? Why are all other long held and ancient beliefs deemed "wrong" regardless of their merit in social stability, and not justifying killing in the name of some imaginary concept.


3. Selfish (examples please)

A - How much of the world's valuables are held and controlled by non-white peoples, eg. gold, diamonds, cash, water, land ?
Do americans share the land equally with the first nations american land owners ?
Do australians share the land equally with the original ancient land owners ?
Do the british, french, belgians, germans, or any european theft based culture share their stolen lands equally with the peoples they stole it from ?

Historical records don't show 'christians' in a good light, unless they have been written by the christians themselves.

My post was directed at another poster who made the original claims.

That being said (and no offense towards you ) those examples you gave are very weak.

If we were in a court of law that case would be thrown out for pure mockery.

Oh, and it isn't "my book".

J/S

I meant it to be a rockery, sorry .

I like rockeries .
There jamlicious.

excellent keen observation

myself, I prefer the Jewish scriptures, but even in the King James Version it describes Yeshua [the ancient One] in the Books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation as being the complexion color of burnt brass. it refers to His hair like wool.

for those who understand metallurgy, burnt brass is basically darkish brown. wooly hair is far opposite of long, thin, and stringy. plus the fact He was in body within the Mediterranean regions.

Yeshua is my Lord, God, and Savior!!

and I for one [as being considered a white man, although I am 2/3 Native [Blackfoot Sioux/Miami]] follow a God who is biblically described correctly as a Jew that was very dark in His complexion... [Paul (who wrote 2/3 of the N.T.) was so dark, he was asked if he was Ethiopian]

I have a good idea of who Yeshua was/is. I also laugh at the portrayal of Him from the view of the typical Caucasian. they have clearly skipped past the fact within the scriptures that there is no immediate burning HELL after death for the lost, no such thing as the TRINITY, and that their God is written to be considered BROWN/BLACK in His complexion.

for those who do make it to heaven from the h-o-n-k-y side of town, they are about to get a rude awakening

I personally do not care what He looks like .
It is quite irrelevant.
The Bible said He was comely, and yes obviously He was Jewish.

Just a diversion tactic by Satan to keep ones eyes off the real focal point(s).

I find it amusing that a Christian crusader would kill anyone that suggested



Or is this more appealing?

Like the dinosaur who once were..we are here because the conditions allow it to be.Now if we choose to put a God spin to it ..whatever..After all God is whoever we believe him to be..we wrote the books..we make the interpretations we live the lives..Who is right..well, we all are..just ask us and we'll tell you..

to a degree I completely agree. where I would argue is the fact that Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel [major prophets], and John [Revelation] wrote specifics concerning Yeshua.

I think it is a nice gesture to understand what the person who died for us actually looks like.

after all, I have believed upon Him before ever realizing the specifics of the bible. and I continue believing upon Him because I now understand the specifics of the bible.

I keep a journal. each night I jot down the worst thing that happened and the best thing that happened per each day. and then a day will come where I will feel like reading through that journal. what I have discovered is relevant to my beliefs.

I have discovered that each event I categorize as bad was typically due to my own choices. from my actions, my attitude, to the very words I used I could clearly see why what happened did so.

and concerning the good events, I have discovered that typically none of those events happened because of me. which made me look closer to how those good events just randomly happened. and for the most part, those events happened not because of the generosity of humanity. they happened at times when there was no solid reason for them happen. not by chance, not by circumstance, not by luck. this made me realize what the benefit of having faith means.

so understanding this better, has opened my reasoning to understanding what the ancient Hebrews were doing. they wrote about both their misfortunes and their conquests. and within those ups and downs, they understood how the good fortunes came about vs how they suffered. they concluded, when they kept the faith, they were blessed. and when they sought things and reasoned by their own counsel and own perception, they failed.

this led them to understand that we as humans fail. science fails miserably all of the time. humanity fails all of the time. idealisms fail all of the time. look at school shootings, how others separate themselves from one another, racism. these are classic human failures that lead to even bigger misfortunes.

but when the ancient Hebrews put their faith and trust in God, things happened that benefitted them beyond humanities capabilities. much like my own journals have proven.

so, if having faith in God makes me foolish, then let me be the biggest fool. for one thing I do know/understand as an absolute, the good things that happen in my life are not from my own choices nor from the generosity of humanity. those benefits I am blessed with cannot be assigned to any of us. this only leads me to one conclusion. which is, they are from God!!

Truth proven in a laboratory and by mathematics never changes. The laws of physics never change. There are scientific principles established centuries ago and proven by university peer review boards that have never changed. It's when science has a point they want to hold on to that they, forever, continue to search for further proofs. Many of these are based on assumptions that never should have been made in the first place and evolution is filled with these types of assumptions.

Carbon 14 dating is taught in grade school, junior high, high school, college and by all public service facilities (ex: PBS, NPR,etc.) as absolute scientific fact. One has to seriously dig into the subject to find scientists admitting C14 faultiness.

During the mid 70's my uncle taught a 12 year old Sunday school class and added this information as curriculum. Some of the young students began asking tough questions of their teachers. Instead of evaluating what these students were saying the students were almost expelled from the school. School principals were calling the pastor of our Church DEMANDING this intellectual heretic (using their words) be stopped immediately:

... and this is science?

The pastor responded in two ways:

1.He told the students when taking a test give the teacher the answers he's wanting.
2. He asked the principals "why can't the teachers offer scientific responses to these students"?

FWIW, during the 80's and 90's is was fashionable for college professors to debate science individuals who believe in creation. After the year 2000 colleges and professors will no longer (in general) debate on this subject. They were embarrassed so badly they refuse to go head to head. Instead they use university and public media to criticize those who want to challenge them. University and public media refuse to offer opportunity for opposing responses.

... and this is science.

No they didn't. Ask a real Jewish Rabbi, a teacher of Judaism. Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel are their scriptures. "Yeshua" is not mentioned in them. Ask a Rabbi.



That's a doctrine of men ("the person who died for us"). Jesus said that He came here to "bear witness unto the truth" (John 18:37), not to die for us. Jesus also told His followers to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" that he and the 12 preached with him while He was alive, not the "gospel of the person who died for us."



YOU now understand the specifics of the bible? Who else besides you does? Are there a lot of such people? Are they all in the "Oneness" sect? Are there any other sects that understand the specifics of the bible as you do?

And what does "believing upon Him" mean? I "believe upon Him" myself.

I agree. It doesn't matter what He looked like.