The Vatican was built upon the grounds previously devoted to the worship of Mithra (600 B.C.). The Orthodox Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version. Virtually all of the elements of Orthodox Christian rituals, from miter, wafer, water baptism, alter, and doxology, were adopted from the Mithra and earlier pagan mystery religions. The religion of Mithra preceded Christianity by roughly six hundred years. Mithraic worship at one time covered a large portion of the ancient world. It flourished as late as the second century. The Messianic idea originated in ancient Persia and this is where the Jewish and Christian concepts of a Savior came from. Mithra, as the sun god of ancient Persia, had the following karmic similarities with Jesus:
Identical Life Experiences
(1)

Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: "Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven's own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator" (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).

(2)

He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.

(3)

Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

(4)

The International Encyclopedia states: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world ... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."

(5)

Chambers Encyclopedia says: "The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed -- against all evidence -- as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries -- symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) -- were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts."

(6)

Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: "The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians', purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord's supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December.... They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe" (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).

(7)

Reverend Charles Biggs stated: "The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).

(8)

In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.

(9)

He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

(10)

McClintock and Strong wrote: "In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism" (Art. "Mithra").

(11)

Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day." The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

(12)

The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: "Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras ... His residence is in the sun" (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).
"I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying
"I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)

GOD SAYS THE EARTH IS FLAT!



Job 38:13 ..."That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it."

Revelation 7:1
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. Psalm 104:5

Not only is the earth flat and has ends and edges that can be shaken, but according to the bible, the earth never moves, either. It's set on a foundation, it doesn't orbit the sun.

Some common observations by religious liberals are:
- St. Paul was Unaware of the Virgin Birth St. Paul does not mention the virgin birth anywhere in his writings. It would seem reasonable to assume that if Paul had known of the special conditions of Jesus' birth that he would have mentioned them in one of his epistles. In fact, the opposite appears to be true: he seems to have thought that the birth was natural and conventional:
- Between 49 and 55 CE, he recorded the first known reference to Jesus' birth. In Galatians 4:4, he writes:

"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law."

If he had been aware of the virgin birth, he would have undoubtedly replaced "woman" with "virgin", or made some other change to show that the birth was miraculous. This passage was written some 45 years before the gospels of Matthew and Luke were written, and 55 to 62 years after Jesus' birth.
- In about 57 CE, he wrote his only other reference to Jesus' birth. In Romans 1:1-3 he writes:

"I Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and separated onto the gospel of God...concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh."

The phrase "of the seed of David" strongly indicates that Paul believed Jesus to be the son of Joseph, because Matthew traces Jesus' genealogy from David to Joseph. The phrase "according to the flesh" implies a natural, normal conception and birth.
- The virgin birth may have been copied from a Roman fable: Livy, a famous Roman historian, had written a very popular book on the history of Rome that was widely circulated in the first decades of the 1st century CE. In it, he explained that Mars, the Roman God of war, fathered twins Romulus and Remus, the original founders of the city of Rome. Their mother was Silvia, a Vestal Virgin. 2 Some Christian groups may have slightly modified this fable and adopted it as their own, in an attempt to show that Jesus was a person of very great importance -- an individual at least as important as the founders of Rome.
- The virgin birth may have been copied from another religion 3 History records that:
- Buddha was born of the virgin Maya after the Holy Ghost descended upon her.
- The Egyptian God Horus was born of the virgin Isis; as an infant, he was visited by three kings.
- In Phrygia, Attis was born of the virgin Nama.
- A Roman savior Quirrnus was born of a virgin.
- In Tibet, Indra was born of a virgin. He ascended into heaven after death.
- The Greek deity Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrha, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. He was born "at Bethlehem, in the same sacred cave that Christians later claimed as the birthplace of Jesus." 4
- In Persia, the god Mithra was born of a virgin on DEC-25. An alternate myth is that he emerged from a rock.
- Also in Persia, Zoroaster was also born of a virgin.
- In India, there are two main stories of the birth of Krishna, one of the incarnations of Vishnu, and the second person within the Hindu Trinity. In one story, Krishna was said to have been born to his mother Devaki while she was still a virgin. In the other, he had a normal conception and birth.
- Virgin births were claimed for many Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors and for Alexander the Great of Greece.
- One source 5 is quoted as saying that there were many mythological figures: Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and Horus who share a number of factors. All were believed to have:
- been male.
- lived in pre-Christian times.
- had a god for a father.
- human virgin for a mother.
- had their birth announced by a heavenly display.
- had their birth announced by celestial music.
- been born about DEC-25.
- had an attempt on their life by a tyrant while they were still an infant
- met with a violent death.
- rose again from the dead.

Almost all were believed to have:
- been visited by "wise men" during infancy.
- fasted for 40 days as an adult.

Some historians and liberal theologians believe that many of the elements of Jesus' life were derived from the beliefs that earlier Pagan religions had about their gods.

However, there are two types of virgin births found in the world's religions. One type, as in the conception and birth of Jesus and Buddha, involves the Holy Spirit inducing the pregnancy in a virgin without engaging in intercourse. The other type involves an actual physical God interacting with a virgin in some way.
- The virgin birth story was inspired by the Hebrew Scriptures: Throughout the Old Testament, we hear of the very unusual births 6 of Ishmael, Isaac, Samson and Samuel. Usually prior to the birth, an angel appears to an individual; the latter is afraid; the message of an upcoming birth is given; objections are raised; and a sign is given. Matthew and Luke could have replicated the essence of these stories, and added a virgin birth as proof that Jesus' birth was not only unusual, but was a miracle. This would establish Jesus at a much higher status than the four famous figures from the Hebrew Scriptures. Without a miraculous birth, Jesus might have been considered to be lower in stature to those heroes from the Hebrew Scriptures.
- The virgin birth story was an honest mistake: Most liberal theologians believe that the author of the Gospel of Matthew (or someone who supplied the writer with source material) scanned an unknown ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. He found what he believed to be a reference to Jesus' birth. It was in Isaiah 7:14 (listed above). This has since become a famous passage; it is often recited at Christmas time. He simply copied it into Matthew (1:23) as a method of showing that prophecies in the Hebrew Testament were fulfilled in Jesus' life.

As it happens, the Greek translators had made a mistake. When they were translating the Hebrew writings into the Greek Septuagint and similar translations, they converted the Hebrew word "almah" as the Greek equivalent of our English word for virgin. "Almah" appears 9 other times in the Hebrew Scriptures; in each case it means "young woman". When the scriptures referred to a virgin (and they do over 50 times) they always used the Hebrew word "betulah". 7 So, Isaiah appears to have referred to a young woman becoming pregnant (a rather ordinary event).

Some English translators are accurate to the original Hebrew:
- Revised English Bible: "...a young woman is with child..."
- Revised Standard Version: "...a young woman shall conceive..."
- James Moffatt Translation: "...a young woman with child..."
- New Revised Standard Version: "...the young woman is with child..."

Other translations completely mistranslated the Hebrew and referred to the woman as both pregnant and a virgin; that is, a miracle had occurred. This avoids the conflict that would otherwise occur between Isaiah and Matthew 1:22-23. (The author of Matthew quoted Isaiah as describing a virgin who was pregnant before becoming sexually active):
- New International Version: "...the virgin will be with child..."
- The Living Bible: "...a child shall be born to a virgin..."
- Contemporary English Version: "...a virgin is pregnant...". In a footnote, they say that the "Hebrew word did not imply a virgin birth". They give "young woman" as an alternate.

Other translations went part way. They mistranslated the Hebrew and said that the woman had been a virgin. However, they imply that the woman might have been a virgin, who engaged in sexual intercourse and then became pregnant:
- American Standard Version: "...a virgin shall conceive..."
- Amplified Bible: "...the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive..."
- King James Version: "...a virgin shall conceive..."
- New Living Translation: "...the virgin shall conceive a child..."
- New Century Version: "...the virgin will be pregnant...". They also admit in a footnote that the original Hebrew word really means "a young woman".

Some versions are vague and can be interpreted in many ways:
- New World Translation: "...the maiden herself will actually become pregnant..."
- The Jerusalem Bible: "...the maiden is with child..."
- Young's Literal Translation: "...the virgin is conceiving"

The birth being discussed in Isaiah 7:14 appears to be unrelated to Jesus. It describes the Syro-Ephraimite invasion of Judah and the siege of Jerusalem about 735 BCE. The child that was born to the young woman at the time was a sign from God that the siege would be lifted and that Jerusalem would continue as before. The prophecy was presumably completely fulfilled more than 700 years before the birth of Jesus. For King Ahaz circa 735 BCE, "the birth of the Messiah some seven hundred years later would have been of little consolation!" 8 For another analysis of this passage, see Reference 9.
- The Writers of the Gospel of Q are Silent on the Virgin Birth: The Gospel of Q was an early gospel, which was written about 50 CE and later expanded. No copies have survived, but the original text has been pieced together through theological research. It says nothing about the virgin birth. This is a possible indicator that the early followers of Jesus did not hold that belief. If they knew of such an important miracle, they would probably have included some mention of it.
- The Writer(s) of the Gospel of John imply a normal Birth: Some liberals believe that the Gospel of John was written by a group of authors. The writer(s) did not mention the virgin birth. They must have aware of the belief, since the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke would have been widely circulated for 5 to 15 years by the time that the Gospel of John was written. They seem to have rejected it as being a false teaching. In John 1:45 they refer to Jesus specifically as "the son of Joseph." John 6:42 has the townspeople: "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?" If the author(s) believed in the miracle of the virgin birth, he/they would undoubtedly have mentioned it somewhere in the gospel.
- The Writer(s) of the Gospel of Thomas is Silent: Many theologians believe that this Gospel was originally written about the same time as Mark, about 70 CE. It was in wide use among various Christian communities at the time, but never made it into the official canon. It is also silent about any miracles associated with Jesus' birth. However, its silence is not proof that the virgin birth was unknown to the author(s). Thomas is a "sayings gospel" which deals primarily with the parables and conversations of Jesus.
- The Improbability of a Virgin Birth: Some animal species can reproduce from an unfertilized ovum, in a process called parthenogenesis. The Webster's New World Dictionary mentions that this occurs in certain insects and algae. Although "it is the rule among rotifers and quite common in plants and insect, it does not appear above the plane of the amphibians." 1 A virgin birth is considered impossible for species as complex as the higher apes or man. An additional complexity would be that Jesus would have been female, since he would lack the Y chromosome normally contributed by a human father. However, there are at least two methods by which a virgin conception could have been produced. Researchers are currently experimenting with various medical cloning techniques. One involves taking the ovum from a mammal, removing its DNA, injecting the DNA from the cell of another animal of the same species and successfully inducing a pregnancy. Since God is normally conceived of as omnipotent, then he could have followed the same procedure with an ovum from Mary and a piece of DNA that he created or borrowed from a male human. Alternately, God could have created a single human sperm and caused the conception directly.
- The possibility of conception without sexual intercourse: Joseph and Mary could have engaged in sexual activity short of actual sexual intercourse. Even without actual penetration, it is possible for a small amount of semen to be released and cause conception. We recalled reading that in 1st century Galilee, it was commonly for couples to live together and engage in sexual activity and intercourse before marriage. When a child was born to the couple, they got married. This might have happened to Joseph and Mary. Unfortunately, we have been unable to relocate the reference about 1st century customs in that area.

In conclusion the most likely scenario, as interpreted by many liberal Christians is:
- The writer(s) of the Gospel of Q, circa 50 CE, seem to have been unaware of the virgin birth.
- Paul (who was executed about 64 CE) was similarly unaware.
- The writer of the Gospel of Mark, circa 70 CE hadn't heard of it either.
- If any of the above writers knew of a virgin birth, they would almost certainly have realized that it was a miraculous event and would have incorporated it into their writings.
- Sometime between 70 and 90 CE, a myth of the virgin birth was invented, probably to strengthen the authority of Jesus' teachings by claiming that his birth was miraculous. This was a time of great change, as the Roman Army had demolished Jerusalem and its temples and scattered many of the Jews throughout the Roman empire. There, they would come into contact with many stories of virgin births of various politicians and deities from Pagan religions. In fact, it would have been unusual if the developing story of Jesus' birth did not include many of the features found in mythical figures of other religions.
- By the 90's, the belief was widespread. The authors of Luke and Matthew incorporated it into their Gospels.
- The writer(s) of the Gospel of John likely knew of the story, but rejected it as being a false teaching that was not believed by his faith group within Christianity.

As J.S. Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ, wrote:

"In time, the virgin birth account will join Adam and Eve and the story of the cosmic ascension as clearly recognized mythological elements in our faith tradition whose purpose was not to describe a literal event but to capture the transcendent dimensions of God in the earthbound words and concepts of first-century human beings." 7

* L.M. Graham, "Deceptions and Myths of the Bible", Citadel Press, New York, NY, (1991), P. 304. Out of print. However, a used copy may be obtainable from Amazon.com online book store
* Isaac Asimov, "Asimov's Guide to the Bible", Wing's Books, New York NY, (Reprinted) P. 780-782 Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store
* J.S. Spong, "Born of a Woman: A Bishop Rethinks the Birth of Jesus", Harper San Francisco, CA, (1992), Pages 56-57. Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store
* B.B. Walker, "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets," Harper & Row, (1983), Page 10. Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store
* Patrick Campbell, "The Mythical Jesus," Page 41.
* J.S. Spong, "Born of a Woman", Page 58
* J.S. Spong, "Born of a Woman," P. 74-79
* J.D. Douglas, et al., Eds, "New commentary on the Whole Bible," Tyndale House, (1990), Page 895.

Liberal Christians - A liberal Christian Blog

ErosJr,

Almost everything you posted in your original post is false. No historians agree with anything in that, including athiest and non-Christian historians. We've gone over that already many times in these forums.

==============================================================
GOD SAYS THE EARTH IS FLAT!
==============================================================

Ummm...that's called a figure of speech. God also described birds and insects as walking on "four legs". Israelites ate living bugs, don't you think they would know how many legs they had? "on all fours" or "walking on four legs" meant crawling, as opposed to hoping or flying.

Ok...Sure. Whatever.


"You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed, and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland..And I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes"

-The Matrix

my friend i guess u have been taking the pill that makes u allucinate.

"...that makes u allucinate"?


..Um...

no comment.

u better don't.

Walker, I think you mean hallucinate.

I thought allucinating was when you hallucinate while having severe hiccups??!!??

~~~~~

But yes we had Mithra about a month ago didn't we???

I'm having my mithra now.....

Remember this was wrote about 2,700 years ago by Isaiah 40: 21-22


{This is exactly what it says}


21.)Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you From the beginning? Have you not understood From the foundations of the Earth?


22.)It is He who sits above the circle Of the Earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the Heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. Yes, it says "It is He who sits above the circle of the Earth."............................................................................................................................................................................................ If you look the bible has all truths of knowledge and revelations....This was wrote way before any great minds came along to say "Yes, the Earth is Round."...DUH THE BIBLE TOLD YOU THIS MANY YEARS AGO...


ALSO..READ THE BOOK OF JOB..HE TELLS US THAT THE EARTH ISN'T SUPPORTED BY ANYTHING..IT IS HUNG UPON NOTHING...
Kat

Thank you Sctterbrain,
it says the four courners that doesn't mean that it said the earth was flat by any means...if anything it implys it's a square!! J/K

so grasshopper

grasp the pepple from the hand

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaachhooooooooooooooooo !!!

Ooops ! Don't mind me, I took a green pill..

Uh huh...
Hey...it was opened up for me. Hadda know I was gonna jump Lee.
Kat

Sorry Kat, but one point disputed doesn't counter all the rest.

We've had similar discussion before. It is common knowledge that many other religions have a great many similarities to the teaching of the Bible.

For some reason, a lot of people seem to think religion becan with the Hebrews.

I find it somewhat amazing that people will depend on sceientists, archeologists and those few who have the ability to properly translate old spriptures, to prove validity of the Bible, but when any information is 'dug up' that show conflict with scripture, suddenly the scientific community doesn't have a clue.

I certainly do not translate perfectly, but who does?? I just TRY??

Anyway....HUH?? --insert scratching head icon here--
Kat