My last post was in repsonse to Creativesoul.

Eljay, before I begin let me say that you are among the wisest poster on these boards. I fully recognize that. And your motives are very sincere. I also have absolutely no desire to challenge your faith, unfortunately, this is the aim of “discussions”. If we all just agreed with each other we’d have nothing to say.

However, I must also say that you do assume some things to be absolute ‘truths’ which I don’t feel the same way about. Perhaps I can expand on those here:

Eljay wrote:
“One would ask - how do I wipe my slate clean? Here the idea of Jesus wiping the slate clean comes into play.”

I understand the “concept” behind this. However, I don’t buy it. I don’t believe that we are all ‘tainted’ by “original sin”. To me, that would come down to blaming others for the actions of previous people which makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

However, when it comes to personal sin, I seriously do not feel that I have ‘sinned’, especially not in any way that would be to be washed away by such a horrendous act as being crucified on a cross. Every time this topic come up people start claiming the “everyone has sinned!”, but to me that’s just reinforcing the brainwashing effect of scare tactics. No one can get away from this religion alive!

Seriously, it’s just saying that EVERYONE MUST BELIEVE THIS! And that’s precisely what brainwashing tactics do!

Now when I say that I don’t feel that I have ‘sinned’, what I am saying is that I have never done things with intent to harm or hurt another person or myself (including animals). This excludes hunting which I used to do years ago, but I was TAUGHT that hunting was ok! In fact, most Christians have no problem with killing animals or eating meat.

However, in truth, I never really “enjoyed” killing animals. In fact, I always felt bad after I did it. That’s why I finally quit hunting. But listen to me! We’re talking about ‘sin’ here, and my biggest concern that I might have ‘sinned’ has to do with killing animals which the Bible actually CONDONES! That wouldn’t even be a ‘sin’ according to the Bible, yet this is my biggest guilt in life!

When it come down to actually purposefully doing something “evil” I can’t even think of any thing that I have done that I would consider to be “evil”.

Eljay wrote:
“Repent of the past evil (recognise it and desire not to keep doing it), recognise that Jesus "paid the price" for that evil, and chose heaven. Else - chose Hell. So if good people go to hell - it's because they chose to go there.”

Well again, I understand what the story is claiming. And I have chosen not to do evil. I can’t recognize that Jesus ‘paid the price’ for any evil that might have been done, because to me that whole concept makes absolutely no sense to me.

Eljay wrote:
“To me - the majority of the posts I read where people say that God doesn't exist, and go on to describe the attributes of God that back up their statement are often correct. The God they are describing doesn't exist.”

The only thing that concerns me about the Bible is the idea that in order to ‘chose heaven’ a person must also buy into the story that Jesus was God and that he died a horrific death to ‘pay the price’ for our sins.

Why should ‘choosing heaven’ be tied to a belief in a far-fetched story that makes no sense to me? Isn’t it good enough to just choose good over evil and be done with it? It’s this mandatory thing that a person MUST choose to believe in the religious doctrines of a specific religion that bothers the hell out of me.

Shouldn’t the ACT of choosing good over evil be enough? Shouldn’t that the only real bottom line?

The fact that the religion isn’t happy with that and will only allow acceptance of God to be associated with the acceptance of the RELIGION. To me that’s the epitome of BRAINWASHING and CONTROL! That’s HUMAN tactic, not a tactic that a god would use.

Eljay wrote:
“So - in concluson - Hell must exist - because every "soul" is eternal (perhaps this is the premise to be discussed), and not everyone wants to spend eternity with God. Therefore, Hell must exist to accomidate those who refuse to enter heaven.”

Now here we have these ‘assumptions’ that I’d like to argue against.

You put out there as a ‘premise’ that every soul is eternal. But why should that be the case?

You know that I believe our soul (or spirit) is eternal. I’m a pantheist. I believe that our spirit has always existed. We existed before we were born and will continue to exist after we die. We are part of god and cannot be separated from god. It is impossible to be separated from god because without god there is no existence.

You obviously believe that our soul (or spirit) came into being when we are physically conceived. Yet our spirit will then forever be eternal. AND,… that our spirit can exist in its own right separated from God!

But why do you believe this?

In John 3:16 it is said that only those who believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life. Therefore, doesn’t this imply that those who do not believe in Jesus will merely perish and NOT have everlasting life?

That would seem to fly in the face that the Bible even suggests that all spirits will be eternal.

Also, if God can create our spirit, why couldn’t he also ‘un-create it’ when we die if he so chooses? Why should he be bothered by allowing that spirit to exist eternally ‘separate’ from him? Especially if he knows that this state of affairs would be highly undesirable?

None of these questions are bothersome in Pantheism. In Pantheism all spirits are connected directly with god, they are all part of god, and can never be separated from god. It’s simply not possible to exist without god. All spirits are eternal, not only forward in time, but in all of time. In god’s timelessness.

In Pantheism there is no evil. All that exists is judgment. Not the finger-pointing kind of judgment of Christianity, but simply we judge what’s good and evil by our own perceptions.

However, keep in mind, that these perceptions run deep within our eternal connection to god.

People who do bad things know they are doing bad things. Whether they believe in Christianity, Pantheism, or even if they are Atheists! They aren’t kidding anyone (not even themselves) when they claim not to have any guilt feelings. They ultimately do no matter how hard they try not to show it.

Finally, I would like to say that if a belief in Christianity is keeping nasty people from doing nasty thing then “Hallelujah Brother Praise Jesus and buy that man a Bible!!!”

I’m all for the religion if it keep nasty people from doing nasty things.

But as Albert Einstein once said, “Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death”

That most certainly shouldn’t be our motivation to invent a mythical God.

I just don’t look to religion for moral values. I have moral values without religion, just as many Atheist do.

This is why the idea that Christ dying on the cross to pay for the moral deficiencies of men makes no sense to me.

If having moral values is SO important to the creator of this universe then she should be very pleased with me. The idea that god would insist that I believe in a specific dogma on top of that just makes no sense to me at all. Especially when that dogma seems to be entirely focused on the importance of moral values!

James:

Your are absolutely right... God would have to be the judge of that... I was merely repeating what I have been taught about that situation... should it happen... merely what I had been taught...

And I agree with "the 'good' people going to hell"... THAT notion is extremely problematic for me also... in addition to many things that you already post for me...lol...

Peace...