Feral,

ALL of your arguments come down to, “The Bible says it’s THIS WAY!”

What you seem to fail to be able to comprehend is that we don’t BELIEVE in the Bible!

Period!

Do you understand?

Of course you don’t.

You have a one-track mind that the Bible is the ONLY authority of God and nothing else is relevant.

I don’t believe that the Bible has much of anything to do with God.

However, I DO believe that it was written by men. Therefore it has something to do with HUMANS!

It is a piece of literature, and I have a right to reference it as such. There are some things in the Bible that do seem to have been written by wise men (maybe even enlightened men), but there are other places that I feel are obviously made up stories.

So I can go through the book and reference different parts of it and discuss them separately just like I do with any other book written by man.

I don’t view the Bible as being the precise unquestionable word of God. Period

Feral wrote:
“What makes me scared about all the stuff the three of you write....is for the people really searching who might believe ANY of what you three say.......”

I beg your pardon little miss arrogance, but there exist other valid philosophies in life besides the religions that are based on Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (These are ALL basically the SAME religion that broke off into different factions).

Eastern Mysticism, and Pantheistic views are absolutely CREDIBLE philosophies and religions.

We aren’t making this stuff up off the tops of our heads. The Pantheist view has been around just as long as the Judeo-Christian-Muslin religions have been around (Some say even longer!)

Apparently you’re living with an extremely limited world view Feral.

Feral,

ALL of your arguments come down to, “The Bible says it’s THIS WAY!”

Wrong...I'm not quoting scripture.....and if you want respect for spewing you nonsense about it all then respect me because I believe in it..and also Abra I have given evidence after evidence that the Lord God Almighty and his word could possible (for you be real) But will you look at it any other way then your WAY NOPE so get off your high horse about it also. I will never give into any of you as my Lord and Savior will not hear of it.

What you seem to fail to be able to comprehend is that we don’t BELIEVE in the Bible!

Don't believe in any of it.......just have the respect for me that I do. And don't be so condescending to me personally
Period!

and of course once again abra you keep forgetting that I said you all can believe what you want....and are you giving me that same respect.....nope

And the only authority of God for me IS GOD.....Is God coming to me and giving me the task to come and speak his word and if you have a problem with that......then I would say abra thats your problem. It scares me that people by what you say.....not that your saying it....you have that right.....its the way you say....I hate to tell you this Abra but the fact of the matter is that you DON'T KNOW.....and believe me you I get many many e-mails of ppl who respect what I want to say and ask me more.......so people like you play really honestly no big part in the whole over all plan as to why I am here.

I don’t believe that the Bible has much of anything to do with God.

Believe that your choice....I believe different.....respect that and don't make it seem like you know all and I am an idiot for believing in His word..because you don't know...and that is the bottom line.



It is a piece of literature, and I have a right to reference it as such. There are some things in the Bible that do seem to have been written by wise men (maybe even enlightened men), but there are other places that I feel are obviously made up stories.

And you just go for that belief.....But if you had studied the Bible as intensely as I have for the last 15 years and really taken each line and broke it down...trust me you would not feel that way anymore....Every answer to every question man could possibly have is in that piece of literature that you also have no respect for as a whole.


So I can go through the book and reference different parts of it and discuss them separately just like I do with any other book written by man.

Now that i would love......

I don’t view the Bible as being the precise unquestionable word of God. Period

Your choice

I beg your pardon little miss arrogance, but there exist other valid philosophies in life besides the religions that are based on Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (These are ALL basically the SAME religion that broke off into different factions).

I agree totally but when what is written is so far from the truth of the Bible....such as red's referencs to she in the bible.....which were totally wrong and confusing to people who don't know either your or my philosophies. And thats makes them scratch their heads all the more and say well golly ding dang what is the truth...at least be truth in your writings.

Eastern Mysticism, and Pantheistic views are absolutely CREDIBLE philosophies and religions.

Yes they are.

And you don't have a clue about my views.....because you really don't look at what I have to say.....you just want to get back and counterpoint my points......

People thinking and figuring out what's right for them - this is a BAD thing. Oh ye of little faith.

FYI - I happen to think Jesus was a pretty cool dude, wish more thought and acted like he did. Personally, I can't help but see he obviously wouldn't have followed that book by the letter either, hmmmm.

Feral wrote:
“Don't believe in any of it.......just have the respect for me that I do. And don't be so condescending to me personally
Period!”

With all due respect, I don’t feel that I have been condescending to you personally. At least not until you started suggesting that I need to be saved, that I have no love in my heart, that I can’t know god, and that I have no right to call him HER. Then I suppose I did lose a bit of respect for you.

I think what happens is that I state my views and feelings about ancient doctrines (mainly the Bible), and you take my comments personally. You view this as a direct attack on your personal beliefs. But that’s not how I view it. Miguel also sees my views as a personal attack on his faith. Spider does too, but then Spider thinks everyone is talking about him.

I seriously have nothing personal against anyone. I mentioned in a pervious post (not sure if it was in this thread though) that I’m looking at the BIG picture. Christianity and the Church in particular, had been very oppressive toward intellectual thought (particularly scientists who were trying to advance human knowledge)

People couldn’t even speak out against the church at all. To question the church was BLASPHEMY! And you could suffer serious consequences such as being tied to a stake and burned alive in a bon fire! Christians were basically crucifying non-believers in a hellish fire on an armless cross. Burning them as “pagans” or witches! Those days were very REAL.

Today, fortunately we have freedom of speach, and I’m taking advantage of it. I’m seriously sorry that people like Feral, Miguel, and Spider, and anyone else might be caught in the crossfire.

I highly respect people like Eljay. He too, is caught in the crossfire. But he has walks through the valley of the shadow of death untouched. He knows that it’s not personal. He has his faith, and I have mine. He understands and respects that. Nothing I can say will sway his faith, and so it should be. After all, that’s not my intent. I’m just placing food for thought on the table. I’m not asking anyone to pick it up and eat of it. That is THEIR decision.

People who take opposing religious views as personal attacks on them should NOT be on public forums that discuss religious issues. Instead they should go to religious safe havens where they can be with like-minded believes who just want to maintain each other’s bubbles.

What’s the point in having free speech and public discussion forums if we aren’t allowed to question established traditions and doctrines? We may as well go back to the dark ages and get the wooden stakes back out again. Anyone who questions traditional beliefs will just be burned at a stake and that will take care of that.

My refusal to accept the Bible as the absolute gospel truth in every detail is in now way a person attack against you Feral. You have created that illusion on your own.

Karma Law Three — What you resist, persists for you.

You resist the right of others to have views that differ from yours.

Karma Law Ten — We need to change our hearts, not our surroundings.

You need to realize that other people are free to disbelieve what you believe. You can’t expect to ask them to perpetuate your beliefs.

You don’t need to CHANGE your beliefs!!! That’s not the point. But you need to CHANGE the way you feel about people who do not believe that same as you. You can’t change THEM. That’s what Karma Law Ten means.

When I question the Bible, I am NOT questioning YOU! You didn’t WRITE the Bible!

I hope you understand that I have nothing personal against you at all. Other than the things that you did say about me personally, (i.e. that I need to be saved, that I have no love in my heart, that I can’t know god, and that I have no right to call him HER.)

Those are personal judgements directed SQUARELY at ME Feral.

Where did I ever tell you that you have no love in your heart? Or that you can’t know God? Or that you have no right to call her a HIM?

Who’s making the PERSONAL accusations Feral?

Me? Or you?

Di

To continue on this....

When you speak on conscience, you are speaking with a ‘religious’ accent. Philosophically, it’s been questioned what, exactly the nature of conscience is. Example: what is right and what is wrong? Racial bigotry is taught. There is nothing in the conscience that tells a person it’s wrong discriminate.
>>> I'm not sure how you've drawn this conclusion.

The very scripture that, you say tell you what’s right and what’s wrong, teaches discrimination, and expects it to be enforced.
>>> The discrimination is towards action/behavior - not toward an individual because of who they are. This is a stretched metaphor that is unsupported by your premise.

So where is the conscience that tells us where to draw the line? If the word Racial means one thing in the Bible, but is currently defined by society to mean another, which conscience does one follow?
>>> The correct exegesis of scripture is to consider what is being said, and who the audience is it was intended for. To equate God telling the Isrealites not to associate with the Samaritians with being prejudice towards Blacks, or any minority is bad exegesis.

Eljay:
>>> Actually - the only way to NOT know if it was right or wrong, is to ignore the consequence. <<<

What are the consequences for marrying outside your race? What are the consequences for refusing LOVE, when it found to be outside your race? What are the consequences of being a soldier fighting in Iraq? How much innocent blood does it take before the consequences must be claimed? Yet consider the number of Christians who fight. Don’t they have a conscience; don’t they know what’s right and what’s wrong?
>>> There are no consequesnces for any of the above - unless the reason for marrying was wrong - the refusal of love was wrong, and what has being a soldier got to do with this discussion?


For instructions to be followed, they must leave little room for error.
>>> I think that equating the bible with the pamphlet one gets when they by a new bike is - well... absurd.

Consider that this ‘book’ was written long before the masses could even read.
>>> The book was not written for the masses. You know the Old Testament was written for a specific race. By the time the New Testament was written - which was intended for the masses, illiteracy was not a concern.

How did they know what to believe? If a believe was passed from generation to generation by word of mouth, until a communal conscience was a social norm, is it still free will to ‘interpret’ what can now be read in the same light of what has been ingrained, even if it was wrong?
>>> At the time of the bible the social norm it was intended for was Judaism. They had a well structured religious heirarchy which in fact WAS interpreting the scriptures incorrectly, and it was for this reason that Jesus came to lead them to the truth of whathe scriptures meant. The Sermon on the Mount being the greatest example of exactly what we're talking about here. However - it did not lesson the truth of the scriptures - just how it was being interpreted.



There are many who don’t consider the Bible a worthy teacher. Yet they declare a belief in God and Jesus as God. They believe they are guided by the Spirit that is God.
>>> However - the bible states emphatically that they are not being guided by the spirit of God or Jesus - for Jesus tells them so.

Are you suggesting that because they don’t attempt to glean some doctrine from the Bible that they are being misled?
>>> It's not me who is suggesting it - it is what the book itself says. I didn't write it. I'm merely saying that if one professes a belief in Jesus, but does not believe in the bible -than what Jesus do they believe in? Which is what Jesus himself says to those who came to him claiming they'd done all he asked. He states he never knew them.

Even those who believe the Bible has something to offer, by the way of doctrine, still believe one is led by the Spirit.
Why are they different?

>>> Because - according to the scriptures themselves - merely believing the bible has something to offer is not a qualification to recieve the spirit, and without it, one cannot be led by it. This is what the bible says. It is a misnomer to claim that one has the Holy Spirit, and not believe the bible is God's word, and infallible. Again - not my words - but the bibles'. It seems odd to me how one could think they are being led by the Holy spirit and conclude that the bible is wrong.


As I said before, until fairly recently, the masses have been illiterate. Those who wrote, who read were the elite of society. Yet by word of mouth, alone, religion has succeeded for thousands of years. Why would it suddenly become so important for God to have a manual?
>>> I don't see what this has to do with what the scriptures say. What is said that "hearing" the word is what is important. Not reading it. It only took one person in an entire community to know how to read. So I'm not sure where this is taking us.


Here’s what all this comes down to:
Free will – allows us to make choices, often in accordance with our individual conscience. But what you seem to be saying is that our conscience “if we believe” will be guided by the “Spirit” that is God. But if that’s true, than there is absolutely no need for any written word. For that matter, if conscience is indeed ‘inspired’ to do right – than what purpose would there even be, for a God to make It’s presence known?
>>> It isn't that the conscious is "inspired" to do right - it's purpose is discernment, not inspiration. The bible is to inform one of the difference between what is right and wrong, the conscious is used for discernment over interpreting it - or "rightly dividing the truth". Same too with the Holy Spirit. But merely having the Holy Spirit does not mean that one now never does wrong. On the contrary - it is quite possible to have the Spirit of God, and quelch it by following one's own idea of right and wrong - without discernment. Just because someone has the spirit does not guarentee they'll always do what's right - they still must call upon it.

It seems to me, that creating a written word, AFTER the tower Babel was also an oxymoron. Apparently, creating a written format only succeeded in creating more choice, and in a world where conscience is ‘molded’ by social norms and values, it was frivolous venture to begin with.
>>> Again - the scriptures were not intended for anyone who were apart of the tower of Babel account. Only the decendants of Abraham.

Hi Eljay,

Are you saying the bible is actually more of a family history of the family of Abraham?

The bible is a fun read actually. Especially the old testament (the new testament is for pussies!).

Rape, lots of incest, when Jews conquer a town they literally murder all men, women and children in that town (its because god told them to....uh yeah sure of course).

Its a great story - the most violent and repulsive book on the market. I recommend all christians read it.

The new testament is basically a dumbed down, watered down version of the old testament. It was made specifically because the rulers wanted a docile, servile population, and hence "turn the other cheek" was born.

People like that shut up and know their place

Abra said:

I didn’t bother reading your entire post because once I started reading about all your data about the Earth being in the perfect position, blah, blah, blah, …. I could see that you have no real clue.

Answer: Hmmmmm Im not allowed my science as you clearly state above......hmmmmmm

Abra said:
There is nothing in those numbers that is even remotely suggestive of intelligent design. Given the physics of how solar systems evolve it would be a miracle if no solar systems came out in the right order of things. There are probably millions if not billions of solar systems in the observable universe that are producing life.

Answer: Probably is not proof and miracles hmmmmmmmm do you believe in them?

Abra Said:
I have reasons for believing in intelligent design too, but the reasons you give are not convincing.

Answer: Your opinion......

Abra:
But then again, I believe in an intelligent universe. I have no problem with the idea that god exists. I’m convinced that god exists. But for every reason that I can give why I believe that the universe was intelligently designed I can probably give 100 reasons why I believe the god depicted in the Bible can’t possibly be the correct picture of god.

Answer: But you also can't proove that the God of the Bible is not the correct picture of God. And also according to God Himself these men were chosen by Him to put down HIS words. And if God truly IS.....why would he ever let anyone put in down incorrectly........just something to ponder.

Abra Said:
And that’s no an exaggeration either, because I can’t really give that many reasons for the universe having intelligent design. But I can give a myriad of reasons why the Bible makes no sense.

Answer: I have not heard one that makes sense yet.

Abra said:

If there is a god, the universe will lead me to her, not some book that was written by egotistical male-chauvinistic bigoted controlling men. So convincing me that there must be a god (which I already believe) is not going to sway me toward Christianity one iota. Pantheism has it covered quite nicely without all the contradictions and inconsistencies.

Answer: And you knew them personally....and trust me love God would not have any man other then the most righteous of men doing anything in His name.

Abra said:
With all due respect, I don’t feel that I have been condescending to you personally. At least not until you started suggesting that I need to be saved, that I have no love in my heart, that I can’t know god, and that I have no right to call him HER. Then I suppose I did lose a bit of respect for you.

Answer:
con·de·scend·ing
showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority: They resented the older neighbors' condescending cordiality.

Yea I would say thats how you respond to me on anything.

Abra said:
I think what happens is that I state my views and feelings about ancient doctrines (mainly the Bible), and you take my comments personally. You view this as a direct attack on your personal beliefs. But that’s not how I view it. Miguel also sees my views as a personal attack on his faith. Spider does too, but then Spider thinks everyone is talking about him.

Answer: Of course I take it personally.......If God calls e to give his message, and you come off with your crap, that is a slap in My Lord face. I don't care about what you believe or what gets you through the day.....But you do act all high and mighty with what you believe to be truth and that will get me a lil angry. When The Lord God ask his people to believe in no OTHER Gods....There is not reading between the lines there....You believe in no other Gods. Read Exodus 20:17 and then tell me not to take it personal.

And trust me also, I think science and God go hand in hand.....but I also think people are warped by their scientific theories.....because they are just that.....Theories. And no where has it been said that GOD,or Jesus is a theory.

Abra Said:

People couldn’t even speak out against the church at all. To question the church was BLASPHEMY! And you could suffer serious consequences such as being tied to a stake and burned alive in a bon fire! Christians were basically crucifying non-believers in a hellish fire on an armless cross. Burning them as “pagans” or witches! Those days were very REAL.

Answer: Yes they were....but when God brought his Son to earth, that cancelled out the old testament of doing things. Now im not saying that it is a good thing to talk about the church......and as I have said many times, I don't care about church or religion. What I care about is when you speak ill will of the Lord and Savior and when you speak that His words are just garbage.....To me that is personally sticking a knife in my heart and you will be judged. Not by me but you will be judged.

Abra said:

Today, fortunately we have freedom of speach, and I’m taking advantage of it. I’m seriously sorry that people like Feral, Miguel, and Spider, and anyone else might be caught in the crossfire.

Answer: Praise God that we have those freedoms no doubt. And put me in the crossfire anytime you like....But be ready to hear my side of it...If people are going to hear your side....they are also going to hear my side....so they can make a fair decision hearing both sides. And again I say to you Abra....that I am who I am because of my circumstances and trust me also that until I found God my life was a mess....and he spoke to me....he showed me miracles Himself and through prophets....so you can bet your sweet bippee that I am going to defend Him and His Word with every breath that I have.

I do respect whatever you want to believe. But once again I say to you Abra that come in here with total lies, and fabrication and you will hear it from me. I have just as much right to proove my side as you do yours.

And place food for thought and then let someone else have one. And as I said from the beginning God gave me a task and Im doing that....what the good folks do with the information is totally up to them.

Abra said:
What’s the point in having free speech and public discussion forums if we aren’t allowed to question established traditions and doctrines? We may as well go back to the dark ages and get the wooden stakes back out again. Anyone who questions traditional beliefs will just be burned at a stake and that will take care of that.

Answer: You can question anything...but you to must remember there are two sides.

Abra said....
My refusal to accept the Bible as the absolute gospel truth in every detail is in now way a person attack against you Feral. You have created that illusion on your own.

Answer: Not condescending huh.

Abra said:
I hope you understand that I have nothing personal against you at all. Other than the things that you did say about me personally, (i.e. that I need to be saved, that I have no love in my heart, that I can’t know god, and that I have no right to call him HER.)

Answer: Please show me where I ever said you had no love in your heart....when I said you can't know God, that was in reference to your saying God was a she....God has no gender.


And I offered to take the Bible and scripturally go over it with you and listen to what you find so hard to believe....but I still have not heard you thoughts on that one.....

Being a person whose is creative I don't have any trouble with the concept a god who could be creative. There many people who are creative so why couldn't a god be creative? Whole libraries are filled with books about creative people. I have been to school where creativity is even incouraged believe or not. Creationism doesn't bother me. I feel like I have evolved since I have been a small child so evolution doesn't bother me. Why can't a god evolve? Big bang theory doesn't bother me. If a god created it all and that god was all powerful then why couldn't the god just say, "Let there be light" and bang it happened. I have read many science books where a program or an android became sentient. Why couldn't a creative energy or a spirit become sentient? I think creativity is a wonderful thing. I remember a professor when giving a lecture to see if we were listening started making things up in a class one day just to see if anyone would question what he was saying or just keep taking notes while he was expounding theories. I liked this one creationist who told me that a airplane is made up of non-flying parts.

Feral wrote:
“And I offered to take the Bible and scripturally go over it with you and listen to what you find so hard to believe....but I still have not heard you thoughts on that one.....”

Ok, let’s try this,…

It is said that Jesus died to pay for our sins.

I’d like to know who was paid by Jesus’ death and why was it necessary for an all-powerful God to pay anyone for the sins of man?

One thing I have found common in atleast three religions is that someone or some entity should be praised. Praise Buddha, Praise Jesus and Praise Allah. I beginning to think as long as someone or something gets praised it is nice.

Praise my ex for giving me a divorce. Ok, I will quit.

Abracadabra,

"I’d like to know who was paid by Jesus’ death and why was it necessary for an all-powerful God to pay anyone for the sins of man? "

I would love to answer this for you.

Who was paid? God.

Have you ever heard of God being called a judge? God is a judge. He wrote the laws and he judges those who break the laws. The punishment for breaking any of God's laws is death. Because God is just, he will not allow sins to go unpunished. But because God is merciful, God offered a sacrifice to pay the debt of sin which we all have. It's like a court allowing someone else to pay your fine. God is love, but God doesn't have just one facet to His personality. He is loving, merciful, jealous (look it up in a Biblical dictionary), just and vengeful.

"And no where has it been said that GOD,or Jesus is a theory."

What an oversight. Let it be said:

"GOD is a theory. "

I'm sure you'll reject this theory that GOD is a theory, that's up to you, but at least can't dismiss it as "unsaid".

Feral and Abra,
Going over scripture, apparently, get us nowhere. I offered numerous opportunity for feral to review spricpture in a previous post. I have never gotten a responce from that. I could offer many others, and I have, in these posts and except for Spider and Miles, no one has ever attempted to refute them. My guess is that they don't agree with how they are interpreted and therefore don't want to bother.

So I've come to understand that when one offers to 'review' scripture with you, they are actually offering only their opinoin of a spripture of their choosing.

So to both of you, this is the reason why many refuse such offers of Christians to 'review' scripture.

my brain hurts..

Cute & Red....

Cute & Red....

Redykeulous,

Some of the time I am too stuborn to not refute poorly interpreted scriptures. It gets me in trouble, but I do it anyways. What I've learned is that most people who post scriptures have already made up their minds. So whatever I post, unless I agree with them, they are going to disagree with me. I think many Christians are going to ignore poorly interpreted scriptures for many reasons, but the fact that they don't refute another's post in no way indicates that they can't or that the posted interpretation is correct. I have ignored many interpretations of scripture I have seen posted, because I just know that nothing I say will change the persons mind. So it's just better to not say anything so that neither of us have to get frustrated.

hey massage...