Abra;

Oddly enough - I did not find your response to my post negative at all. As a matter of fact, in many ways it does appear to be a cosmic game with people as pawns. There are some subtle misnomers in your post though that I would like to point out. First off - it is not 2 Gods at play here. Satan is not a God. He functions in the spiritual realm - not the physical, as Hollywood would like us to believe. There will come a time when he will actually possess a human - that being the antichrist, as he has in the past (Judas). However, he is still limited in what he is allowed to do according to his will - else the world as we know it would have ended long ago. His powers are limited to tempting humans - not controlling them. That choice is left to "us". In order for Satan to have control over someone - they must allow him to do so. Once this has occured - what the bible refers to as the "bondage to sin"
only God can free that bondage, and will not do so unless asked. So, God is not a player in this game - he is the Referee, or umpire, or Ring-master, or name your sports analogy.

Another reference you tend to make is that God is "an all loving God". To me - God IS love. It is the noun which describes him - not the adjective. He knows the deepest desires of everyone on this planet, even if they themselves are not even aware of it yet. He rewards anyone those desires. One only need ask him. The premise here being that since we are the creation, and He the creator - He knows better than we do what is best for us. Often times, our desires are not the best things for us. An addict desires the next fix - it is illogical to think that God would provide that for him were he to ask - so to quote Voil "it is the spirit of the word - not the letter of it".

So - like you - I look at the world around me, and agree, the game does not seem fair. However - it's the only game in town. There is evil everywhere in this world. We often have to lock our doors for fear of being a victim of it. (Those of us who live in the city know this all too well.) Whether or not this displeases you enough to reject the God of the Bible, is not going to change the reality of it. And if you think that a Pantheistic idea of God is a much better idea of God, than why doesn't She do what you expect the God of Christianity to do? When I look at the world as it is today - I don't look to heaven and ask "Why did you do this?", he's tried to do everything he can to stop it. Short of taking over the free will of man. He even sent his son. And how did that work out for man? They crucified Him! And everytime an act of evil occurs on this planet - He is crucified again, and again, and again. It's merely a matter of perception. Free will is both "a blessing, and a curse" - as Monk would say. When your choice is in line with the will of God - you win the game. When it isn't - you lose.

One of the extremely unfortunate aspects of this "game" we both see - is the evil that is done in the name of "Christianity", and how the responsibilities of these actions are somehow attributed to God. I have never disagreed with the statement "Religion does more damage in this world than anything else". How true. However much damage I see religion being responsible for - I don't for one second transfer the blame to the Christian God. Only the misunderstanding, and misrepresentation of Him. Though I know we agree on the damage of religion - I've never thought we agreed on who carries the blame for it.

Eljay,

Let me begin by saying that I admire your thought process and your depth of understanding of your religion. You have a BEAUTIFUL MIND! I stand in awe.

You seem to have a very solid understanding of the biblical story. Did you study theology directly? Are you an ordained minister? If you aren’t you certainly should be!

Unfortunately, even though you give a solid story of what’s going on. I still have problems with the story itself. I hope you’ll understand that my following concerns are very real.

AND – (and this is very important!) – it is quite possible that the Bible is TRUE, given a wider birth of interpretation than is normally allowed. It might also be truer in some places than others. In other words, it could be possible that some of the Bible was actually written by truly enlightened and divinely inspired men, whilst possibly other parts got into it purely by mistake (or became grossly distorted from their original meanings). I suppose there probably are theories along those lines called something like (contaminated Bible Theories or something).

Anyway, allow me to comment on your response.

Eljay wrote:
“1.) There are some subtle misnomers in your post though that I would like to point out. First off - it is not 2 Gods at play here. Satan is not a God. He functions in the spiritual realm - not the physical.”

Yes, I understand this. In fact, the idea of Satan as being nothing more than a metaphor for the human ego makes PERFECT sense to me. In fact, allowing this analogy, then in a sense, Satan exists in pantheism as well and all eastern mysticism. It’s the illusion of the self, which is precisely what the “enlightenment” is all about; It’s about freeing one’s self from the illusion of the ego.

However, if we allow for this interpretation, then Satan isn’t an actual entity. Satan, in this interpretation , is nothing more than an illusion (albeit an illusion that has consequences). It’s the illusion of being separate from god. The illusion of being an egotistical individual. Satan isn’t an actual being or entity at all.

I can totally identify with THAT idea of Satan. In fact, that idea of Satan exists in pantheism But this is not traditionally the view of Christianity. Traditionally. the idea in Christianity is that Satan was an angel who fell from the grace of God and exists as some form of an individual entity it its own right. For me, THAT interpretation is EXTREMELY problematic. Because this means that Satan is an actual entity (or deity in its own right).

So if the picture is that Satan is just a metaphor for becoming lost in the illusion of the ego, I’m with you. But if Satan is considered to actually exist as second deity (or entity, if you like), then it becomes seriously problematic.

Now, allow me to expand on this,…

Eljay wrote:
“2.) His (Satan’s) powers are limited to tempting humans - not controlling them. That choice is left to "us". In order for Satan to have control over someone - they must allow him to do so.”

Ok, this fits in perfectly with the idea of Satan as being a metaphor for the ego. We have a free choice of whether or not we care to indulge in being egotistical or not. We can become lost in the idea that we are an individual person being completely separate from God, or we can recognize that we are part of the whole (part of god).

Actually this is what Pantheism (for lack of a better label) is all about. It’s about recognizing that we are indeed part of God and we are not separate individual egos. So Pantheism and Christianity here, can be just two differnet ways of looking at the same thing.

However, in your next comment (which is indeed the Christian view) Christianity and Pantheism part ways DRASTICALLY.

Eljay wrote:
“3. Once this has occured (man has fallen for the temptation of Satan or the ego)- what the bible refers to as the "bondage to sin" - then only God can free that bondage, and will not do so unless asked. So, God is not a player in this game - he is the Referee, or umpire, or Ring-master, or name your sports analogy.”

This is where Christianity and Pantheism part ways (in a way, but then again maybe not, depends on how you want to look at it).

In pantheism, falling for Satan would be to become lost in the ego (thinking you are an individual and don’t need god). However, in pantheism you can get yourself out of this rut on your own simply by become aware of your folly (becoming enlightened).

That can happen a myriad of differnet ways. You might achieve it by over a long period of time by meditating and quieting your mind and moving back toward nature (god). Or you might arrive at it logically. You might just be sitting there say, (Holly Crap! I get it!) and become instantly enlightened to the folly of the ego.

(by the way, I’m using the word “you” here generically and I don’t mean to imply that you are not enlightened. By the sound of your clarity of thinking I suspect that you are indeed enlightened your own Christian way)

Now, the reason I said that Pantheism and Christianity differ is because according to Christianity the only way to be “saved” from Satan (the illusion of your ego) is to accept Christ as your savior. Yell, hey, that might actually work somehow. If a person actually believes that Jesus is a supreme being and they surrender their ego to this idea that they are not an individual and that they live for a deity then they are no longer trapped in the illusion of the ego and they have been freed from the trap.

But according to Christianity, accepting Christ as your savior is the ONLY way to do this. In all honestly, I personally don’t even see that as being a necessarily good way of doing it. And the reason I say that is because it is quite possible to accept Jesus as your savor and still be lost in your ego. We see far too many extremely egotistical people around proclaiming that they have been “saved” by Jesus. It obviously isn’t a foolproof method.

Pantheism isn’t exactly foolproof either. However, with pantheism the idea is to recognize that you are indeed nothing more than a small part of god (god is everything, all of nature, as well as all other people and animals). So once you’ve realized that you are indeed an inseparable part of the whole (part of god) then you view life entirely differently than you did when you were lost in the ego. You realize that everyone you meet is exactly as important and equal to you no matter who they are. Race, religions, sex orientation, etc., none of that matters. We are all one. Everyone you meet is as much a part of you the nose on your face (and vice versa).

So while pantheism isn’t foolproof, it seems to me to be a better picture than viewing an individual deity (such as Jesus) as your “savoir”. It seems to me that the idea of viewing a specific individual deity as your savior could actually backfire and have the reverse affect of driving you further into an egotistical view of things.






Eljay wrote:
”4.) Another reference you tend to make is that God is "an all loving God". To me - God IS love. It is the noun which describes him - not the adjective. He knows the deepest desires of everyone on this planet, even if they themselves are not even aware of it yet. He rewards anyone those desires. One only need ask him. The premise here being that since we are the creation, and He the creator - He knows better than we do what is best for us. Often times, our desires are not the best things for us. An addict desires the next fix - it is illogical to think that God would provide that for him were he to ask - so to quote Voil "it is the spirit of the word - not the letter of it".

Well, see it’s this kind of talk about God being a separate egotistical entity in ‘his’ own right that I’m talking about.

In pantheism once you lose the ego you realize that you are actually “part” of god. You are part of a whole where you belong.

With Christianity, even after you’ve been “saved” you’re still stuck with this separatist view of you still being an ego, and god being a separate ego.

In other words, even though you were saved from the illusion of the ego, the religion is now driving you right back into that mindset by it’s very nature of viewing God as being a completely separate egotistical being. (I’m using the term ‘egotistical’ here to simply mean a separate “individual entity”)

Eljay wrote:
“5.) So - like you - I look at the world around me, and agree, the game does not seem fair. However - it's the only game in town. There is evil everywhere in this world. We often have to lock our doors for fear of being a victim of it. (Those of us who live in the city know this all too well.) Whether or not this displeases you enough to reject the God of the Bible, is not going to change the reality of it.”

Reality is the same no matter how we view god. However, precisely what you are defining as “evil” does change. Evil is a very SUBJECTIVE label. There is no such thing as absolute evil. Evil is simply things that we deem to be undesirable. Even after we’ve been enlightened, reality doesn’t change, only our VIEW of reality has changed. We see things differently and therefore we don’t judge them in the same way.

Eljay:
“And if you think that a Pantheistic idea of God is a much better idea of God, than why doesn't She do what you expect the God of Christianity to do?”

Because the pantheistic view of God is differnet. She (my own term by the way, god doesn’t’ have gender, but this does help to separate the ideas of pantheism from Christianity),… So she doesn’t work like he does.

The God of Christianity is an interactive intervening god. He obviously CAN intervene using MAGIC. He can come into the world and stop people from building towers and confuse their language. He can tell someone to build a boat whilst he makes it rain and flushes all of humanity down the toilet. He DOES intervene CLEARLY!

Therefore, when he doesn’t intervene we can ask why. Why didn’t he give Hitler a stroke when he was running for power, etc, etc, etc,. I mean, if he can intervene why not? People pray to him to cure cancer in their loved ones, because they feel that he can reach an and do things at will.

Why allow extreme earthquakes, disease, etc, etc, etc, to occur if he can intervene?

The pantheistic god is not that kind of god. That’s what makes her DIFFERNET.

She fixed the potentialities of the universe when she rolled the original dice at the Big Bang. That’s where she “intervened”. She set the limits of what is possible and what is not. Evidently she fixed things so that if humans evolve they will go into a state of shock if they encounter too much pain. Or their bodies will cease to function altogether. She fixed it so that no one will be made to tolerate anymore pain than they can. They might scream and say, “God! I can’t handle this! Please Help me!”. But in truth they are handling it, if it was genuinely more pain than they could handle they’d go into shock because that’s the way god made things.

She’s a dice-throwing god. But that doesn’t mean that she’s a “gambler”. That doesn’t mean that “anything goes”. Not at all. She knows precisely what *can* and *can’t* come up on the dice. She has fixed those limits. She she’s not gambling with the limits themselves. She’s only rolling things that are within those limits.

So in this picture god does not have a “master plan”. Or to put that another way, her master plan is to roll the dice of the universe and she what it produces. She IS the dice!!!

She throws herself out and unravels herself to become you and me and every living and non-living thing. She IS her own creation. She’s not a separate judgmental being standing behind the curtain like the Wizard of Oz.

She IS this universe. She IS you and me. And we are her. There is no devil. There is no evil. All that exist is god and the illusion of the ego.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I hope this helps to make the pantheist picture of god a little more understandable and potentially “friendly” instead of alien, and I hope this explains better why I don't find the Christian picture to be compelling.

P.S. sorry for all typos Eljay, I didn't have time to proof-read.

That’s how I see it too klc Satan is just a metaphor for the ego (thinking we are an individual self).

There is no actual entity called Satan. Some Christians actually suggest this, but then there’s also the undeniable story of the fall of Lucifer and all that. This is why I find the stories so difficult to make sense of. To take it one way, makes sense in some places, to take it the other way makes sense in other places. So which is true??? To say that both are true is nonsensical. The story needs to be consistence and have a definite meaning otherwise anything goes and it’s not a coherent story at all.

Like you say, this isn’t meant to be derogatory. It’s a serious concern for anyone who demands a coherent story. And demanding a coherent story is a rational thing to demand. Either Satan is a metaphor for the ego and does not exist as a “fallen angel”. Or he exists as an actual entity or being in his own right. These are two DIFFERENT stories. Only one can be accepted if the story is to be coherent, and then it must REMAIN coherent throughout the book. It can’t be jumping around, that just implies that the various authors of the Bible misunderstood each other, and therefore the stories could not have been inspired by a central supreme being.

I mean, at some point a rational person has to put their foot down and demand some consistency. Otherwise they are just trying to believe in a bunch of mumbo jumbo that isn’t coherent just for the sake of trying to cling to something.

TLW wrote:

"So let's say for instance a politician (because that's what satan is)"

I -knew- it! And he used to be a lawyer.

Abra;

No - I am not an ordained minister, however I have spent a great many years studying apologetics and logic - it's sort of a hobby, as my profession is in the Theater. Much like your pursuit of music and poetry as a Hobby to your profession of Math.

At first, I was not too happy with your refering to God as a "She", as initially - it seems derogatory. However, it is a perfect way to distinguish the difference between a Pantheistic god and a Christian one. So too shall be Satan, and Ego. When I respond to you - I will use these words as we both understand them.

Though our understandings take us in different directions - the functionings of God (He & She) and Satan/Ego do not differ all that much. One thing that comes to mind concerning the "dice" theory and the interventions of God that I think may be different - is the "Time factor" to coin a phrase if I may. In Christianity - God's interventions are not determined by the acts of man within the time factor. Prayer does not move God to do anything He was not already going to do. Were this to be true - I would have a problem with that, for God is omniscient.
Knowing all things throughout the time factor would render this concept illogical - would it not? However - within the time factor - he moves the mind of men - (which is a subtle difference between controlling them and influencing them) - by making them aware of things that may not be clearly evident. A case in point would be Noah building an Ark. Here - Noah builds the Ark, not God. By why would Noah do that if not influenced to? Is this story a fairy-tale? Many think so. Obviously, the only one's who were left to tell the story believed it, because they survived it. No possibility for conflicting stories there. Only time has allowed for sceptacism. In the case of the parting of the Red Sea - another "stretch of faith" occurance - God clearly intervenes. But more often than not - God's interventions within the time factor are through Nature, leaving man no choice but to deal accordingly. Most people have a hard time with the devistation that occurs through God's intervening in our lives this way. The mass distruction and deaths of Sodom and Gomorrah, all the way through hurricane Terresa - why does this occur? I have no response. The logical Christian response is that man brought it upon himself and it's God's punishment. Okey, so New Orleans is a "city of sin" and there may be some truth to this -but I think it's a stretch to claim that the sin of New Orleans, or the over-indulgence of Ego brought about a catagory 5 hurricane. That's using a natural disaster to try and support a theoligical concept. Much like the way AIDS is used as a specific consequence of being a Homosexual. It's using the logic wrong to make that statement. So while it may be true that there is intervention on God's part - it was always going to be that way. But I don't understand how the dice theory applies to the occurances I stated. I"m not saying it doesn't apply, I'm just not sure how to bridge the gap I see in the time factor to justify it with the dice theory.

Though Satan & Ego are metephorically linked. I.E. the understanding of Satan and Ego is shared by both of us - the basic difference is that Ego can occur anywhere at any time, and is not bound by the time factor - whereas Satan is. As he is a spiritual being - and we have no way of determing how quickly he/it/what-have-you can move from place to place - is influence is only felt by one person at any given time. Now - we've no clue as to how many angels there were at the time the 33% fell to the earthly realm, so it may appear that occurances of temptation are occuring simultaniously at any given moment - thus the illusion of God like qualities of Satan - but in Christianity, Lucifer is a single entity. The metephoric similarity of Ego & demons happens by the sheer number of demons, whereas everyone has Ego. So we do part ways here.

As to the "bondage of sin" - you make a statement that is so true, and not understood by most people who tend to brand Christians as being "Holier than thou". "We see a whole lot of egotistical people who claim to be saved by Jesus" - yes, we sure do! And way too many of them on television and radio influencing the masses. Though at the time of salvation - I.E. recognizing oneself as having an over-indulgent Ego (If I may so make the analogy) and realize the need to be freed from this. A believer becomes a "Child of God" - or Christian - when he calls upon Jesus to free him from that bondage. At this time he is forgiven of past disgressions, and filled with the Holy Spirit, which seals them and gives them strength to overcome the O.I.-ego. However - the person remains who they were before this occurance. They are not a better person in the sense that they're somehow "above" others in stature, just someone who is freed from the bondage of O.I. Ego. It does not follow that they will not return to making the choices to satisfy the O.I. Ego once again - and many times, it in fact makes it worse, because the person now claiming salvation is merely claiming it, not living it. Where-as in Pantheism, overcoming the Ego is an ongoing event which builds in strength as understanding and wisdom increase. This particular aspect is what often makes Pantheism a more attractive alternative to the obviouis hypocracy which exists within Christianity. And I can't disagree with you on that. The evidence is overwhealming. But Christianity - in it's pureist sense is more appealing when one is able to overcome through the Holy Spirit - rather than despite it. That's sort of my take on it, and it's worked for me which is why I defend it. But I often see so many misunderstanding of Christianity based on what others percieve the actions of the Hypocrites are that claim to represent it.

So - despite our differences in personal choices Abra, we are very much alike in that we are truth seekers. I too am in awe of your mind on these matters and to not take your posts lightly because you do not make absurd statements without thought. You reason things out to a conclusion using sound logic. Though at times I may disagree with some of your premises, you at least establish them in your threads.

You have also given me a deeper understanding of Pantheism as it should be understood. I hope I am doing the same with Christianity.

Well when you walk with the Lord you only serve one person. Why even put the thought of the devil in your tongue. I know I sound mean but it is what I believe. When you serve the Lord you fear no one or anything. Bring up better topics. I know i am going to hear it for this one. Well we are all humans and have are own thoughts. RESPECT AQLLA