Yes.
That was my error.
Thank you for the correction.

My intended point was being over-extended can lead to downfall.
It's a risk imperial powers run.

Related:

IF,
Why was the Western Roman Empire unable to defend against the barbarian onslaught?
Was it not at least in part because it was over-extended?

Thanks again IF.

IF
Do you deny since WWII, U.S. foreign policy has become more Machiavellian than before? And that the U.S. is about the most imperial power on Earth today?
If not U.S., who?

I'm not sure why.

I understand.
Some economists scale federal debt to GDP, and some of those that do say we're not wildly beyond what is survivable.

I'm not sure that's all there is to it.
I'm not predicting doom; although even the more responsible economists acknowledge the current rate of deficits isn't sustainable.

But my objection to deficits are several.
My two main reasons:
- We're spending the money of citizens that haven't been born yet.
That violates one of the Founding principles of the United States of America. It is literally: taxation without representation.

- Another main reason:

If hope I have not missed your point IF.

His point comes from his belief in the modern progressive narrative that the Roman empires willingly transformed into diverse societies. According to these theories they were open borders people and welcomed other cultures with open arms and were much better off for it. They didn't fall... they progressed... haha..

It had nothing to do with military defeats... an over taxed failing economy or pi$$ poor governance..

IV,
I wouldn't over-interpret / misinterpret "over-extended".
It can mean a wide variety of things; but basically means that the government's resources are inadequate.

Can we really look at the U.S. federal debt in excess of $18 $Trillion, and say we're not over-extended?
Can we really read a quotation like this:

Does Canada, or some other fairly Western governed nation you'd prefer to compare it to, do that?

"When your outgo exceeds your income,
the upshot will be your downfall." Paul Harvey

I am specifically referring to his post.

The Western Roman empire was over-extended militarily, economically and in its inability to govern far away lands effectively.

There is no real definitive explanation as to why Hadrian built his wall, but one theory I can believe is that it was done to control smuggling of goods without being taxed.

That sounds pretty desperate...


We are over- extended. Anyone that believes otherwise is a fool.

Perhaps Uncle Sam needs a big dose of the Serenity Prayer:

I'm particularly concerned about Obama's Asian pivot.

As I understand China's 100 year plan, China's diminutive but powerful politburo intends to have China as the global leader within a century.

I'd like to see the U.S. befriend China, rather than draw it into polarized opposition.

Why must we make so many enemies?!

We have discussed China previously and I think it is fair to say we have differing opinions on the subject. Chinas 100 year plan is based on deception. But, it is working in the manner in which Mao envisioned.

You can look at this trade deal and see that Obama is not willing to do what his own party is demanding and include a provision that stops China and any other country from manipulating its currency. Currency manipulation is a huge problem for us in terms of selling our products at competitive prices.

It is hard for me to want to be friends with China considering what depths they go to in terms of cyber espionage and outright theft of intellectual property.

I still contend that if China had to play by the rules they would still be a backwater third world crap hole that was struggling to survive.

The Soviet Union collapsed in part due to inept central (politburo) planning.
Good riddance.

But China's politburo is damned near brilliant.
China has been accused of doing capitalism better than the capitalists.
China got high-speed rail in a fraction of the time it'd have taken in the West.

I wouldn't call rendering a few rocky reefs by dredging material onto them is "deception".
I'm not calling it fair.
But I do believe it strengthens their claim in the territorial dispute.

I don't think China is particularly Maoist in 2015. If it is, I'm not seeing it.
Mao's agricultural reforms have been abandoned.
Some of the most successful aspects of China are those most Westernized.
Hong Kong has taught the mainland a stunning lesson. In one 99 year lease, Hong Kong left the mainland in the dust.

All that, and much, MUCH more!
I'm not suggesting we should be friends with China because they're so warm and fizzy.

I'm suggesting; geo-strategically, economically, we're better off with China as a friend, than an enemy.

And thus, a brilliant, well chosen example of what a formidable foe China could be; and yet one more example of why we're better off not getting on China's bad side.

You're RIGHT!
The rules aren't binding on China.
That's the kind of loose cannon you want to install a U.S. burr under the saddle?

PS
Yes. That's right. "Fizzy".

The US is not drawing China into polarized opposition because it has no reason to...China is not a threat to us for many reasons...They are geographically limited, their aging population will soon catch up with them and cripple their low cost productivity...This will be felt big time since they are so economically dependent on exports...The political corruption in China is epic and the big military buildup everyone babbles about is not even close to posing a threat...China has zero air power, their submarines are antiquated, their nuclear arsenal consists of about 250 warheads and they don't have tracking and targeting abilities...Their aging population will be a negative influence here also......It's important to understand that China is an emerging REGIONAL power...They will look less and less threatening as time goes on...

And about the fall of the Roman Empire...Along with economic decline, many other things contributed...One reason (probably the main reason) the western Roman Empire was unable to defend against the barbarian onslaught was because increasing civilization always results in weaker soldiers...Other things that lead to the fall included a string of bad emperors, the division into eastern and western halves, mass migration, infighting and disunity, plagues, and the settlement and subsequent invasions of the Visigoths...

I agree.
The US is drawing China into polarized opposition because it has no good reason to...

China is not yet a threat to us ...

Right.
That's subject to change as we plummet toward the 21st Century.

Do not static model a dynamic system.
Know it or not, believe it or not, like it or not, admit it or not; China is on the move!

Plummet toward?...I'm pretty sure we're already there...

government is very relevant, wouldn't wanna be w/out it.

But good government should be like a great Waiter in good restaurant: You barely notice or see him working admist the hustle & bustle,




but all of a sudden there's this lovely meal on the table

The deception is the backbone of the plan. Lure the west into believing they are winning hearts and minds with money and lax enforcement of rules.

We thought we were opening their market by playing dumb when in reality they were betting that we were dumb.

This vast emerging market with a billion potential consumers is the siren singing.

They have not strayed far from the Maoist ideology. This perception that they are capitalists is a facade.

They are communists that run down their own people with tanks.

The government censors the press, the Internet, print publications, and academic research, and justifies human rights abuses as necessary to preserve social stability. It carries out involuntary population relocation and rehousing on a massive scale, and enforces highly repressive policies in ethnic minority areas in Tibet, Xinjiang, and Inner Mongolia. Though primary school enrollment and basic literacy rates are high, Chinas education system discriminates against children and young people with disabilities. The government obstructs domestic and international scrutiny of its human rights record, insisting it is an attempt to destabilize the country.

http://m.hrw.org/world-report/2014/country-chapters/china

These are just a few things we ignore because that song sounds so appealing.

Edited for off-topic and taking the discussion personal.

soufie
Site moderator

That's the part that scares me ... "the fate of a nation lies with its people ..." when half is looking for the government to partially or fully support them and the numbers appear to be rising.

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have rejoiced in their loss of freedom who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious. – Cicero

?!
Is China winning your heart & mind because it's violating copyright, & counterfeiting trademarks, etc.?

There's more to achieving global hegemony than lax enforcement.

The U.S. is killing suspects with drone strikes.
China is building roads and digging safe water wells.

As much as I despise our current government and leadership...er uh.... state servant representatives.... some government is needed.

Chaos and anarchy are not good for the people and warloards and usurpers (like ISIS) would rise to power in the vacuum. The people would still lose.

The question is how do you regain control of powers you have lost to a govt that has usurped the power of the people with the very tools they have been allowed or given to "defend" them?

All governments (especially this current one) use division and unrest to maintain power over the people with the very tools and abilities they have been granted for their defense. Fear and division are necessary to keep the people divided and maintain control of the masses by an agenda of hopeless surrender to authority to "cure" the chaos they create to that end

Voting is a joke when choice is controlled, the money, utilities and food chain are under the power of govt or private enterprise of an elite, their lobbies, corporations, and banking system, and the media is for sale to the highest bidder

Are we bending over backwards to do business with China knowing they are violating copyright and counterfeiting trademarks, etc?

I am not the one that gave them most favored nation status. I am not a believer that they are capitalists or are moving away from Maoist ideology.

The 100 year plan is to crush the west economically using deception .. You ever heard of 'shi'? There is a great book called 'The Art and Science of Military Deception'... It goes into depth on ' shi' the Chinese deception doctrine.

It's real..

No one likes to hear it, but look to the constitution for classification and clarification...Our government is a "representative" republic with just the right amount of democracy thrown in to ensure freedom...It's not perfect, but it is as close as any governing systems has come and the fact that our politicians AND OUR CITIZENS have compromised it doesn't mean it is wrong, it means we are wrong because we let them...Ambition, greed, and power are the enemies of EVERY system that places the priority on 'individual liberty'...I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand...ALSO, I'm thinking if you don't like our system of government, where besides maybe Switzerland (and who can afford that) would you go?...Believe it or not, under our current system the answer lies with the people...Think about Obama's second term and how many people did not vote because they were pissed or didn't like the choices...A four year opportunity for something different, for change haha, was lost...I did not hear anyone say it was lost because the election was rigged...DId you?...According to history, for 150 years our system was working just fine...The three branches of government were keeping each other in check...What changed?...The 17th amendment and Woodrow WIlson...Wilson wanted a flexible constitution, one that would better serve his purpose, so the fourth branch of government was born, executive power!...This is the problem and it, along with it the power that Congress has to pass undefined law which is then kicked to the Supreme Court for constitutional ruling, needs to go...America is being micromanaged and personal freedom and liberty is now so compromised as to be unrecognizable by our founding fathers...Stop pointing the finger and get involved...Start at the bottom, go local...Attend town meetings, learn, use your voice for something other than biotching...But most of all use your vote, it does matter...Three million Republicans who voted in 2008 DID NOT bother to vote in 2012!...Now we'll never know if Mitt was the better choice...And.....We pissed away a perfect opportunity to tell Obama we were not happy with his job performance...In our current system, there is only one way to begin the change and that is through the electoral process...Therein lies the ability take back the control we so blindly give to big corporations, unions and special interests groups with bucket loads of money...If every eligible citizen voted responsibly, those fat cats could not buy enough votes to control our elections...